Your platform might differ from the XJ but I can tell you from my experience if you are looking for a steering stabilizer to "fix" your steering/alignment issues you are simply looking for a bandaid.

All the stabilizer does is dampen any unwanted movement..........it doesn't eliminate the unwanted movement.

A steering stabilizer is a steering stabilizer is a steer.........you get the idea

 

Your platform might differ from the XJ but I can tell you from my experience if you are looking for a steering stabilizer to "fix" your steering/alignment issues you are simply looking for a bandaid.

All the stabilizer does is dampen any unwanted movement..........it doesn't eliminate the unwanted movement.

A steering stabilizer is a steering stabilizer is a steer.........you get the idea

I am not looking for it to fix steering/alignment issues. I'm looking for it to help with the steering wheel wanting to move on it's own when I hit a bump at high speeds.
The alignment is great and I have no wobble.

 

A steering stabilizer (correctly called a steering damper) will not correct "loose" steering. Adding a second stabilizer won't help, either

A steering damper prevents side forces (like hitting a curb or a rock with the side of a tire) from ripping the steering wheel from your hands.

The common causes of "loose" steering are worn out steering components, or lack of caster angle. What did your alignment results show for caster?

Matt

 

A steering stabilizer (correctly called a steering damper) will not correct "loose" steering. Adding a second stabilizer won't help, either

A steering damper prevents side forces (like hitting a curb or a rock with the side of a tire) from ripping the steering wheel from your hands.

Matt

Maybe I'm not describing it correctly. It's a loose steering wheel, which feels like may rip out of my hands.

Everything is new. Everything on the alignment came back as passed. This was a frame up rebuild.

The jeep rides great, no wobble at high speeds at all. I am looking for something to keep the steering wheel tighter. This is what a steering stabilizer (dampener) is for, no?

I've been at this for several years now and built this Jeep with my father in my garage/driveway.
I have a basic understanding of what each component does.
I'm just looking for which steering stabilizer is recommended for an application like mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

What you are describing is "bump steer", which is common with lifted CJs, and a stabilizer won't help much. It's caused by the tie rod and drag link not being parallel as they should be. Read this:

https://files.meetup.com/4119962/Steering-and-suspension-basics.pdf

Did you use a drop pitman arm with your 4" lift?

Matt

 

Yes I did use a 4" drop pitman arm.

Although I've been working on it for years now, doing a frame up restoration. I've only been driving it for a short time. About 70 miles total now.
This is my first ever Jeep, let alone CJ.
There seems to be lots of quirks I'm not used to or expecting yet.

At this point I'm willing to try whatever I can, easier first to harder.
Easiest thing for me now is to upgrade/renew the steering damper.
If that does not help at all then I can move onto the angle.

So far since I haven't heard otherwise (except that it won't help) I'm leaning towards the skyjacker dual shock steering damper setup.

 

If you are getting that much of a jar when hitting bumps more than likely your caster angle is off. I would look at that first.

 

Post up a picture of your steering linkage/front axle. Be sure not too zoom in too far where we can't reference anything. Also what pressure do you have in your tires?

 

Is this image ok?
This is old and before the alignment was done.

Also forgot to mention it has power steering, which is working very good. Wheel turns with a pinky at stand still.

 

You may want to read this
https://txtire.com/blog/view/steering-stabilizers-the-truth

 

Tires are over-inflated, evidenced by the dust marks on the tires. Tie rod and draglink are far from parallel.

Both conditions are likely causing your bump steer.

Go ahead a throw a damper on there and see what happens. They are all valved 50/50, so it doesn't really matter what brand you get. But, don't be surprised when it doesn't solve your bump steer. A drag link flip, or drop pitman arm, are probably the two solutions that will fix the problem.

Matt

 

Tires are over-inflated, evidenced by the dust marks on the tires. Tie rod and draglink are far from parallel.

Both conditions are likely causing your bump steer.

Go ahead a throw a damper on there and see what happens. They are all valved 50/50, so it doesn't really matter what brand you get. But, don't be surprised when it doesn't solve your bump steer. A drag link flip, or drop pitman arm, are probably the two solutions that will fix the problem.

Matt

I already have a drop pitman arm. I'm gonna look into a drag link flip. The picture makes it look worse then it really is.

 

I agree with everyone about your long shackles and dropped Pitman Arm, a steering damper is not going to help that kind of bump steer or wandering with that setup.

I use a stock steering damper, but probably don't need it. Keeping the drag link parallel is vital and the dropped Pitman Arm would not be needed if you did a Tie Rod flip.

I can drive at 75mph with one finger on the wheel if I wish and so can many others here on the forum who have their steering geometry setup correctly.

 

You guys convinced me [emoji38]

Next thing I work on will be a drag link flip.

It's not the first time it's been suggested.

Btw my Jeep won't go over 65MPH. So 75 is just a dream at this point.

 

As noted, those lift shackles aren't helping your steering situation, either.

I asked earlier, but you never answered. What did your caster numbers come in at? Within spec doesn't tell us much. My CJ handles much better at the high end of spec than it did at the low end.

Matt

 

I didn't have the sheet handy with the alignment numbers.

I have it now.
Looks like caster wasn't even measured. Weird.
They didn't have 78 CJ7 in their system so they used an 82 CJ5. 🤦*♂

Will a pitman arm that's dropped another couple inches work instead of a drag link flip?
I'm using the 4" drop pitman arm but apparently that's not enough. I saw another for 6-7" lifts. That looks like it may make the drag link a bit more parallel.

The flip is something I'd rather not do if it's at all avoidable. My father is throwing a fit whenever I mention us doing a drag link flip. Even with all the work we've already put into this, the drilling of the knuckle for the flip is something he is not willing to do with me. And it's not something I can't do alone.

 

Most drop pitman arms will be shorter than a straight one. So, you will sacrifice turning radius.

The caster angle was never measured? Hmm, I think I'd find a new alignment shop.

Read the link I posted earlier. It should clarify things for you.

Matt

 

Most drop pitman arms will be shorter than a straight one. So, you will sacrifice turning radius.

The caster angle was never measured? Hmm, I think I'd find a new alignment shop.

Read the link I posted earlier. It should clarify things for you.

Matt

Unfortunately it's hard to find decent shops around here. And harder to find good and honest mechanics.
Most people hear 1978 Jeep and run away because they assume it's a ton of work. And they can make just as much money on something easier.

The alignment is already paid for, and from a chain shop (Tire Kingdom). I can try to go back and ask why the caster was not measured.
It has a 6 month service warranty.

 

Not sure why your dad would be so dead set against the drag link flip...it should be the easiest solution to your bump steer.
If he's concerned about violating the sanctity of the OEM knuckle (assuming it's OEM), then pick up another knuckle and rework that one. They're a dime a dozen.
You'll then have more stable steering, and he'll have the unviolated knuckle!

And be absolutely sure to get those caster values, don't let the shop jerk you around. You paid for the work, they have to respond.

Lastly, the steering damper? If you're steering is properly set up, you'll never need it. I did a SOA on my CJ5, with my own fabbed hi-steer. I can drive down the road at 70 mph hands free, if I want to...and again, no stabilizer.

 

He is complaining that we don't have a setup like a machine shop and will not be able to drill the knuckle completely straight. He says it's more likely we will drill making an egg shape and the tie-rod will never stay in the correct position.
We don't have a professional drill press and he refuses to do it because he says we can't do it right with the equipment/tools we have.

In the meantime I ordered a 7" drop pitman arm. That should make them more parallel. And the arm looks just as long as the current 4" drop I have on. So will see about that.

You can tell the caster is bad just by looking at the pictures?
I will call them up tomorrow and ask why the caster measurement was never done and see if I can come back to get it done.

So if it's negative I will need to install some caster shims I suppose?

 

Stick a steering damper on. Heck stick two on, if it floats your Father's boat. When it doesn't correct the problem, maybe he'll realize you are getting advice from guys who have been there and done that. Just saying...

Good luck. I never had the pleasure of restoring a CJ with my Father. I wish I had. I'm sure it would have been filled with similar trials and tribulations, but it would have been worth it.

Matt

 

Stick a steering damper on. Heck stick two on, if it floats your Father's boat. When it doesn't correct the problem, maybe he'll realize you are getting advice from guys who have been there and done that. Just saying...

Good luck. I never had the pleasure of restoring a CJ with my Father. I wish I had. I'm sure it would have been filled with similar trials and tribulations, but it would have been worth it.

Matt

Thanks Matt. [emoji4]
When we're working and things are moving along it's great. But when there is a lull (like now) and we're stuck on a problem... that's when it gets hard to deal with him. And when I try to explain what i understand to be correct from all of you kind folks from the forums who have real life experience with this and are kind enough to share with me... he won't hear it unless he gets it too.
Apparently he didn't get this. So this weekend I'll show him pictures and hopefully some YouTube videos and try to convince him this is what must be done and it does not take a machine shop to do.

I am not going to throw on a new damper from what I understand now, it's pointless when it comes to what I'm dealing with.

I need to figure out my caster issue and try to get the drag link more parallel to the tie-rod bar. Preferably by flipping the drag link so I can have a proper setup for high steering.

On a separate note, I did notice in some pictures some additional bar which is tied around the power steering gear box and looks like it goes to the passenger side frame? What is that for? I don't have anything like that on my cj.

 

Steering gear brace.

Also might want to make sure the brackets are not loose or cracked.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

I used the following when I did my draglink and tie rod flip, no reaming required, just used a hand drill.

http://www.goferitoffroad.com/products.htm

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

I am in the process of restoring 2 jeeps with my son right now. A yj and a scrambler. One thing that I have been sure teach is to do the research needed to make it safe and reliable. This forum is a great asset. There is a lot of knowledgable people on here. When I was growing up we did not have any resources like this available. The best we had was a chiltons manual which covered the basics of repairs. Its great that you and your Dad can bond over a project like this. Sometimes in our elder age we become very set in our ways. This is where you as the younger generation gets a chance to teach us a few things by having all this technology at your fingertips. My Dad is gone now so enjoy the time you get together with him. I look at our jeeps as a journey more than just a restoration.

 

Same here. I don't NEED this Jeep. It's a fun project I'm doing with my father and is just gonna be a weekend fun vehicle that I will eventually pass down to my son, when he is old enough.

After this is done I'm sure there will be something else. We're always finding projects to work on.
This however has been a very hard one. When we got the jeep it was is worse shape then we thought.
We had to replace the frame, we built/welded all body panels from recycled/scrapped street signs..etc. the engine rebuild was the easy part.
Now the technical issues with the drive are baffling. We will get through it eventually. We only work on it over the weekends. So time is always a factor.
I'm not so young myself being in my 40s, but I am an IT professional and online research is what I am good at. My father is not well versed in computer stuff, he is a contractor by trade and has always worked with his hands.
Different generations for sure.

His mentality is the more we change the harder this gets and we will never be done.
My mentality is we should change things for the better now while we're working on it or we never will and would wished we had.

I am the one who suggested the AX15 transmission and DANA300 transfer case from the stock 3 speed and stock transfer case, whatever it was. I forgot. I am the one who went for a tilt steering wheel and power steering. I tried but failed to convince to use the 4.0 head (which I have in my shed) instead of the 4.2.
I had to work really hard to convince him to do these "upgrades". And this is the very short list.

 

Alex,

You're quickly learning that one so-called "upgrade" to a CJ often creates other problems.

In your case, and in the case of many others, the 4" lift and lift shackles are the root of the steering problems you have now. With 32" tires, a 2.5" lift and stock length shackles would have been a better choice, IMO.

Any alignment shop that won't measure caster, and doesn't realize how important proper caster is to the handling of a CJ, shouldn't be in business. You can get a rough estimate on caster at home using a hand-held angle finder on the inner C's. From my experience, that method is only good to +/- 2 degrees due to casting imperfections, but at least it gives you an idea if you are even in the ballpark. I'm with Keith, it wouldn't surprise me if your caster is 4-5* off.

Matt

 

Alex,

You're quickly learning that one so-called "upgrade" to a CJ often creates other problems.

In your case, and in the case of many others, the 4" lift and lift shackles are the root of the steering problems you have now. With 32" tires, a 2.5" lift and stock length shackles would have been a better choice, IMO.

Any alignment shop that won't measure caster, and doesn't realize how important proper caster is to the handling of a CJ, shouldn't be in business. You can get a rough estimate on caster at home using a hand-held angle finder on the inner C's. From my experience, that method is only good to +/- 2 degrees due to casting imperfections, but at least it gives you an idea if you are even in the ballpark. I'm with Keith, it wouldn't surprise me if your caster is 4-5* off.

Matt

4" springs and/or extended shackles WITHOUT caster adjustment is the issue not the spring height and/or shackle length alone. I realize that point may be simple or even implied...just saying. A smaller arched spring and stock shackle length is just another way of saying you have adjusted the caster negatively but not enough to affect performance. A 4" spring and extended shackle most certainly needs caster attention. With proper caster, there is no performance difference between smaller lifts and larger lifts.

Any amount of positive caster (say +2 degree and up) will track straight down the road no problem...higher degree of positive caster (say +7-8) will track just as straight as the lower +2-3 degree...no difference. The more positive degree the more the vehicle will want to self correct in and coming out of a turn...that's the only real difference.

 

Alexr54, I would hold of on doing the draglink flip until you get the caster corrected. With the 4" drop arm once you roll the front of the axle up with the correct shims, you should be much closer to parallel with the draglink and tierod. Since you have narrow track axles and wider tires, going with the flip and the stock arm probably won't gain you back any steering as I would guess the tires hit the spring as is before the steering maxes out.


As far as the caster angle discussion, I have about 10 degrees on the '6 and it has great return to center and drives straight down the street. The downside to a high caster number is steering without power assist gets harder. That is also why dragsters run into the 30 degree range of caster, to keep the car tracking straight and make it harder to steer away from straight.

 

I definitely need to fix the caster issue. But first I need to find out exactly where mine is at.
You can tell from pictures it’s negative, I can’t. I need to see what you see first.

The tires and steering fees like it returns to center fine while driving and turning. But loose at the same time, if that makes sense. When I hit a bump the wheel wants to sway. It feels like the power steering is too powerful.

The tires don’t hit the springs because they are on 1.5” spacers. Before the spacers were installed the tires were rubbing against the springs.

I ordered a new drop pitman arm for a 7” lift. That should drop the drag link closer to the tierod bar. Based on images, it looks even a bit longer then my current 4” drop pitman arm.
Will see.. Whatever works..

 

You can do a quick check of caster by putting a magnetic angle finder on the bottom of the lower ball joint. You just want to make sure the angle finder is parallel to the spring/frame. Can't tell a definite of a neg caster from the pictures, just from experience using much longer than stock shackles and no degree shims.


Where did you find a 7" drop arm for a CJ? that seems odd and will put a bunch of extra stress on the steering box/mount. I will agree that the steering on some cj's is way over powered. There are 3 different pressure valves that you can run in a saginaw pump, approx #'s 1600psi, 1200psi and 850psi. you may have a 1600 psi valve in your pump. Also, where does your drop pitman arm point when the steering is pointed straight ahead and where does the arm point when you center the steering box? We recently had a thread where the drop pitman arm was keyed incorrectly and the owner was not able to center the box with the adjustment in the draglink causing the box to be off center and and always wanting to steer. The arm should point straight back when the box is centered and then the draglink should be adjusted to that.

 

You can do a quick check of caster by putting a magnetic angle finder on the bottom of the lower ball joint. You just want to make sure the angle finder is parallel to the spring/frame. Can't tell a definite of a neg caster from the pictures, just from experience using much longer than stock shackles and no degree shims.

Where did you find a 7" drop arm for a CJ? that seems odd and will put a bunch of extra stress on the steering box/mount. I will agree that the steering on some cj's is way over powered. There are 3 different pressure valves that you can run in a saginaw pump, approx #'s 1600psi, 1200psi and 850psi. you may have a 1600 psi valve in your pump. Also, where does your drop pitman arm point when the steering is pointed straight ahead and where does the arm point when you center the steering box? We recently had a thread where the drop pitman arm was keyed incorrectly and the owner was not able to center the box with the adjustment in the draglink causing the box to be off center and and always wanting to steer. The arm should point straight back when the box is centered and then the draglink should be adjusted to that.

I will check when I get home on the positions.
But I did want to mention I do have 6° leaf spring shims in the front.

 

While you have them out, are they steel or aluminum? also, the spring center bolt should go through the shim, not just one with a hole for the spring pin and a tit on the otherside to go into the spring perch.

 

I will have them out by this weekend.

 

I found this video to be the most informative when it comes to caster.
I tend to understand things better when it's explained in this way...

Angles! Angles!

[emoji23] [emoji23]

I'm going to work on the caster angle and if it still feels no good I'll get a shorter set of shackles.

 

Alex,

You live in a beautiful city, my friend. My father-in-law used to own a condo in St. Augustine. My wife and I spent our honeymoon there, and took several vacations there. Some of the best beaches in the world, IMO.

Matt

 

Alex,

You live in a beautiful city, my friend. My father-in-law used to own a condo in St. Augustine. My wife and I spent our honeymoon there, and took several vacations there. Some of the best beaches in the world, IMO.

Matt

Thanks Matt!
I do love it here. I moved down from Brooklyn NY around 10 years ago.
Before I moved down here I never even did a oil change myself. Never worked on any vehicle, since in NYC you don't have space for that.

The jeep is meant to be on the beaches here [emoji4] love that a good 4x4 can still drive on the sand here.
Can't wait.

 

Apparently I have a good amount of work left to do before it rides again.

I was changing the front axle pinion seal this morning and saw the bearing was shot.
So I need to disassemble the front axle.
Not sure what else I should change when the front axle is apart.
The wheel bearings and seals are all new on the front and rear. Maybe inner seals? Idk.

I need to change the seal on the rear axle pinion and the transfercase rear pinion.
Might need to change the bearing on the rear axle pinion.

[emoji58]

The caster angle is just one thing now.

 

What did you see that made you think the bearing is bed? Once you take the pinion nut loose there will be some play in the pinion shaft. While you have it apart, it is a good time to look at the axle shaft ujoints and replace those if needed.