That definitely looks like the shifter index pin is the problem. That pin is supposed to be a tight, but sliding fit. Yours is able to move side to side which is allowing to shaft to rotate too. Whether or not it's the pin or top cover that's worn is the question, but I'm thinking it's probably your cover. You can measure the pin diameter to check which part is worn. The pin should measure 0.250" I believe. If it's the top that's worn (which it is most likely) you can try a hack fix by trying to find a drill bit you are willing to sacrifice that's oversized compared to the pin. Try them in the shifter ball slot to make sure they aren't too large and then replace the shaft with the drill bit in place and see how much slop is taken up. If it still isn't enough then a new top cover is required.

 

.. That pin is supposed to be a tight, but sliding fit.. Yours is able to move side to side which is allowing to shaft to rotate too. Whether or not it's the pin or top cover that's worn is the question, but I'm thinking it's probably your cover. You can measure the pin diameter to check which part is worn. The pin should measure 0.250" I believe. If it's the top that's worn (which it is most likely) you can try a hack fix by trying to find a drill bit you are willing to sacrifice that's oversized compared to the pin. Try them in the shifter ball slot to make sure they aren't too large and then replace the shaft with the drill bit in place and see how much slop is taken up. If it still isn't enough then a new top cover is required.

Okay, this good information. Your theory makes sense. The pin I think is new and does look to be .025" but I will measure it. If I can determine the size of the enlarged hole in the top cover (dill bit method should get me close) then I could probably get the matching diameter size steel tube and shim the hole with that. OR, as you suggested, get a machine shop to make a pin that's wider at one end and .025" at the other.

I will also contact Novak and run it by them. If they only ever tested the transmission with a straight shift cane then they may never have seen the problem.

Thats not normal at all, Ken. How can you even drive it like that? :dunno:

I'll shoot a video of mine later today, if you like.

Sure, a video would be helpful. I figured given the old design of the T18/T19 that maybe this much play was normal. It's definitely drive-able, but finding 3rd gear took some practice I think because of the slop in the shifter.

 

Thats not normal at all, Ken. How can you even drive it like that? :dunno:

I'll shoot a video of mine later today, if you like.

Matt

 

A stepped pin going from oversized to the stock .250" could work, but I would have the shop also drill out the existing hole so it's guaranteed straight and round. Also, I'm pretty sure you meant .250" instead of .025.

 

Yes, 1/4". That's the pin size. I will get some specific dimensions today. I emailed my contact at Novak to show them the video and get their comments on the issue.

I wonder if I could shim the pin hole with a bronze bushing that would wear out and be replaceable?

 

Ken,

Here's mine for comparison purposes.

I think your shifter is longer than mine, so any normal slop will be compounded, but yours appears abnormally loose.

Matt

 

Here's mine for comparison purposes.
I think your shifter is longer than mine, so any normal slop will be compounded, but yours appears abnormally loose.

Okay, that's a great comparison. If I cram a 1/4" drill bit into the hole and hold it tight, then I reduces the amount of shift lever play to about what you are showing. My shift lever is pretty long.

 

The pin is the correct 1/4" and a 1/4" drill bit goes in just fine. I was unable to get a 17/64" drill bit into the hole from the outside of the transmission, so this tells me the hole is probably fine on the outside. The problem is the inside of the hole: The inside has been rounded out internally into a distorted cone shape that you can see in the photos.

Welding the hole could be an option, but given that the top plate is iron, it would have to removed from the transmission body to be pre-heated. Then the weld area would probably have to be drilled to 1/4" to get a correct sized hole.

I don't see any shortcuts here.

 

Ken,

Would it be possible to drill a new 1/4" hole in the housing, and a corresponding new notch in the shifter came, perhaps?

Matt

 

Would it be possible to drill a new 1/4" hole in the housing, and a corresponding new notch in the shifter came, perhaps?

Not a bead idea. A hole could be put on the other side and then the bottom part of the shift cane could be cut off, rotated 180*, and then welded back to the rest of the cane. I don't think I have the ability to drill an accurate hole in iron though.

I like your bronze bushing idea the best. I know tractor supply stocks then in 1/4" ID. You could probably get away with drilling it on a drill press with a good drill bit index.

If the hole was uniform throughout then the bushing idea might work, but since the inside the hole is cone-like, then there would be nothing to support the bushing inside where the hole is oblong.

This would be a hack workaround, but maybe I could use a short bushing piece and then pack JB Weld into the oblong area. Or maybe I could braze a bushing onto the iron...

 

I like your bronze bushing idea the best. I know tractor supply stocks then in 1/4" ID. You could probably get away with drilling it on a drill press with a good drill bit index.

 

I would just fill the hole with jb weld and then re-drill the 1/4" hole/put a 1/4" wood dowel in the hole and then drill it out once the jb weld has cured. I would avoid cutting the cane off and trying to re-weld it. I cut mine to use the shifter with the correct bends already in it when I went from the NP435 close ratio to the NP435 wide ratio and it took about 4 tries from a professional welder to get the weld to take and stay solid enough to use. The cane I believe is cast and not the easiest to weld.

 

I would just fill the hole with jb weld and then re-drill the 1/4" hole/put a 1/4" wood dowel in the hole and then drill it out once the jb weld has cured..

That sounds workable. What happens when the JB weld wears out or breaks apart and falls into the trans?

My other thought s to simply drill the existing hole to say 5/16", widen the notch on the cane to 5/16", and find a 5/16" pin.

The existing hole would serve as a pilot hole for the larger 5/16" bit, so it shouldn't be too difficult to drill.

The problem is that the inner part of the hole (the oval part), is wider than 5/16". I'd probably have to drill the thing 3/8" or more.

 

3/8" would probably be even better, if you have enough "meat" at the top of the housing. A 5/16" bit might tend to bind and want to travel at an angle. The larger 3/8" would be easier to keep straight.

One's things certain, I'll be watching for your solution. I was actually kinda surprised at the amount of slop in mine. I guess I've just gotten used to it, but it would nice if it were tighter.

I guess that's the rub with using remanufactured parts. There's some parts that wear that can't, or aren't, repaired to new standards.

Matt

 

... I was actually kinda surprised at the amount of slop in mine...

I chalk it up to a transmission design that has roots in the 1940's. Clearly the T5 has a whole different design for how the shift lever works, and that design seems to still be used today in transmissions like the T-56.

That's a tricky one. Didn't you just buy that trans from Novak? Heard back from them yet?

Not yet. I sent them the link to the video and the two photos showing the enlarged hole.

If I am able to get a top plate that's not worn, I will probably have to drop the trans again to replace it Or maybe I can get Novak to pay a local shop to deal with it.

 

That's a tricky one. Didn't you just buy that trans from Novak? Heard back from them yet? I might ask them to send me another top/cover.

If I was in your shoes, I think I'd try to drill a new hole through the tower and shifter at 90 or 180* from the original one.

 

Novak really should address this problem when they rebuild them, considering what they charge. I bet every core case they get has a worn hole just like this.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards a new hole at 180*. You could go 1/4" and use the existing hole as a guide, drilling the new hole from inside out on the top cover. A new notch in the cane could probably be done with an angle grinder with a thin disc.

Matt

 

Is it possible to make some type of stepped pin to fit the two different hole sizes ?
heat treat when done so it will last longer till you get replacement parts

 

The problem is that the inside end of the hole is enlarged in an oval shape, so it's wider than the outside end of the hole. The pin would have to be inserted from the inside of the lid, which isn't possible.

..That would probably render it a permanent fix and the wear part would become the pin. Kind of odd that this was never done from the factory. They have the wearing surface to be the top cover.

Maybe they figured the trans would need to be rebuilt before this problem occurred, and at that point a new lid could be obtained which means more sales for the parts department.

May have just enough room with the cover off, I know I have pulled the T-176 shift housing off of my CJ-5, but if not at least you are good at getting the trans in and out now.... Makes me glad to have an intermediate tub where most of the floor unbolts and I can get the cover off with the trans still in the Jeep.

I will have to see if I can remove the top cover without removing the trans from the Jeep.

Novac should look at the pictures. That should have never left their facility. Be interesting to see how they handle this.

So, good news: Novak's reply was, "That lid must have slipped by us. Our bad."

They are offering to send a whole lid assembly that I can drop into place, and I would send the old assembly back with them paying the return postage.

Even if I can get the lid off the T19 without removing the trans from the Jeep, how difficult is it to pull and reinstall the lid? The lid has the shift forks and other parts which I have never dealt with. Presumably this is an easy swap, but I don't have any experience here other than having seen photos of other transmissions.

The other concern is: If I am able to leave the T19 in the Jeep, I don't even know if the T19 top cover would clear the dash panel. I really don't want to remove the transmission again if I can avoid it, although it would be a good opportunity to try Matt's "all in one" (skid, D300, T19) method.

 

Novac should look at the pictures. That should have never left their facility. Be interesting to see how they handle this.

 

Lowe's sells steel spacers that are 1/4" ID and 3/8" OD. That should be enough to have the spacer grab enough in the trans and allow the pin to slide back and forth. Since the spacer wouldn't move, it could be placed in a hole with a tight interference fit and brazed. That would probably render it a permanent fix and the wear part would become the pin. Kind of odd that this was never done from the factory. They have the wearing surface to be the top cover.

 

Easy to pull the shift housing. Put the jeep into neutral, take the bolts out and pull directly up. It should clear the dash by plenty of room, the shift forks are not that long. Make sure the new shift tower is in neutral and drop it back on. You will see the two slots where the shift forks go when you put it back in.

 

Easy to pull the shift housing. Put the jeep into neutral, take the bolts out and pull directly up.

Okay, good photos. The real question is how far must the lid be raised. My T19 sits slightly forward, under the tub, about 2 inches. It also is biased toward the driver's side, going about an inch under the tub there. So it's going to be close. Photos below.

.., you might consider picking up the shorter CJ/T-18 shifter. It will make shifting much less truck-like.

Which shifter should I be using according to the FSM?

Here we see 5 photos showing the T19 and its position compared to the trans tunnel opening. It is not directly centered in the opening. While I can probably get the top cover bolts out, it's unknown if I'll have enough room to lift the top cover and shift forks out. I could drop the skid plate and also consider lowering the engine a bit, but that would take some research to make sure I didn't break anything

 

Ken,

I've never torn into mine. But, reviewing the disassembly procedure in the T-19 service manual...

http://www.garagenet.biz/borg-warner-T19.pdf

Step 3 says "Remove bolts attaching gear shift housing to the case and remove the housing". So it sounds like a pretty simple swap.

Matt

 

Ken,

Just a side note. When you get the sloppy shifter straightened out, you might consider picking up the shorter CJ/T-18 shifter. It will make shifting much less truck-like.

Here is a video of me running thru the gears with my shorter stick to give you an idea of the difference.

Matt

 

Be aware when swapping shifter sticks that there are variations. When looking at the stick, you have the "ball socket" portion that mates with the top cover. Then there is the short length of stick coming off the bottom of the ball socket that actually engages into the transmission. There are two different lengths on that part. I've pulled several T18 sticks but don't know what models or years are different. On one, the socket appeared to be forged as one piece with the stick. On another, it appeared to be pressed on. I was able to move the pressed on socket to adjust the length of the lower shaft so it would work in my application. This was way before digital cameras or cell phones, but I might have pics I could scan in.

 

I replied back to Novak and said to go ahead and send the replacement top plate assembly. I'll try to get it installed from the top. If that doesn't work, I'll lower the skid plate 3 inches first. If that doesn't work then I'll pull the transmission/D300/skid back 1/2" at a time until things work.

I have to give Novak credit for offering to make the problem right, however this is the second problem I've had with this thing. When it arrived it was apparent that two of the top cover bolts were missing. They apologized and sent two bolts, saying the missing bolts were where they screwed in eye bolts to lift the transmission (maybe for crating), and the correct bolts were never put back in. So that wasn't a huge problem but it was an oversight similar to this oversight of the worn top cover. I have to assume their QA process is not formal or any good.

 

Shift the trans into third gear before you remove the stick, the 3/4 shift fork wont clear the housing otherwise. You will probably have to lower the trans until you have enough clearance. When you co back together, the reverse shift arm is sometimes a pain to get lined up,the cover will set flat,but the bolt holes will be misaligned. Sorry about your problem,but I'm glad Novak is taking care of you.

 

That's good information! It sounds like you've done this job in a CJ7 before?

 

I've never done it in a CJ that was not available from the factory with a T18. Looks like the clearance may be a bit tighter than I remember.
I've got a T19 with the Novak conversion ready to be installed. Did you opt the 4.02 low?

 

... Did you opt the 4.02 low?

yes sir, 4.02 first gear.

 

Glad to hear Novak is making it right - even if it shouldn't have been wrong to begin with

I just ordered 2 shifters from them for my T18 (I'm assuming the 18 and 19 are the same), both the long(3.5" and short(3.125") finger length of their overall shorter (18") sticks. Just bent the longer of the 2 this afternoon, and will double check that works for mine - if you can use the shorter one, I'll send it to you.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/transmission/transmission-parts/t18-t19-parts/

 

thanks! That's very generous. I see their T18/19 shift sticks come in 18 and 24" lengths. As far as I can tell, the two different finger length measurements refer to the part that sticks into the transmission.

I got email from Novak today saying the new T19 lid assembly has shipped today. 19 pounds via Fedex. I asked them to throw in a t-shirt and I think that should be in there too.

 

The replacement T19 lid arrived today via Fedex. It was well packed in about an 18x18x18 inch cardboard box. The largest fork sticks down from the plate almost exactly 4 inches which gives me hope it will be easier to install. The shift stick retainer pin hole looks very good, as you can see in the last photo. I have not measured the hole, however. I will do the swap this weekend.

 

Good to hear Novak made it right. That locating pin hole looks like it will work beautifully.

 

They also included a new gasket to seal the lid to the transmission body. They also threw in a t-shirt at my request, so that was great too.

 

That looks very nice. Do you have to send the old one back?

 

Yes, I do have the send the other one back. Novak included a prepaid label for the return shipment which is great because I can't imagine a 25 pound Fedex delivery would be real cheap.