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454Gbody

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
03 GC Overland with a 4.7, So I bought a truck that needed the timing chains done, no biggie I've done timing jobs before just not on a vehicle with 3 damn chains lol so I get it all back together and it cranks like its 180 out, loads of compression on bank 2 and 0 on bank 1. All my timing marks line up. Nothing moved between taking it apart and putting it back together. What could I have screwed up? I have not torn it back apart yet. What the hell could have happened.

I will say I have liked this forum for a while and was looking for a reason to join..well I found it.
 
First off welcome. I hate to say it but you're going to have to get back into it, it certainly does sound like the valve timing is off. The 4.7 is an interference motor, so if the cam timing is too far off you will get piston to valve contact. This video shows how to get the timing right.
I cut my teeth many years ago on OHC and DOHC motorcycle engines and cam timing with all the chains can be eye opening to us that have seen nothing but pushrods and one chain. A 454 in a G body... now that sounds like fun!
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I'm tearing back into it tonight, I just don't get where I went wrong..I'm fine with mistakes I just usually find them and I'm not seeing it her which is screwing with me. I'll update when..if I find it and yeah g-bodies are what puts food on the table at my house.
 
Did you take any pictures, or have a guide that you could show us? After cracking, the sprockets are going to be all out of alignment and it might be difficult to see where you actually are. You can keep turning over the motor (manually) until you get the alignment marks to get back to correct position. There are so many areas for screw up. When you put the camshaft sprockets on, were they both in the identical position (V8 mark facing up, R facing left, L facing right)?? The paint marker should be the only difference, and it corresponds to which side cam it should be installed on.
The fact that only one side of the engine has no compression makes me think one of the cam sprockets is off.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Did you take any pictures, or have a guide that you could show us? After cracking, the sprockets are going to be all out of alignment and it might be difficult to see where you actually are. You can keep turning over the motor (manually) until you get the alignment marks to get back to correct position. There are so many areas for screw up. When you put the camshaft sprockets on, were they both in the identical position (V8 mark facing up, R facing left, L facing right)?? The paint marker should be the only difference, and it corresponds to which side cam it should be installed on.
The fact that only one side of the engine has no compression makes me think one of the cam sprockets is off.
I took disassembly pictures, but haven't taken any since reassembly. (I can tonight or tomorrow after I yank the timing cover) its too damn cold in my garage. My timing marks line up perfectly to the manual and I think that is why Im so lost on this. I am perfectly fine with making a mistake somewhere (they usually end up costing money but thats life) I just can't find the mistake here. I will update as soon as I can get more parts taken off this thing.
 
At the very least, pull off the valve cover on the no compression side and double check the sprocket is actually rotating. I'm wondering if the the chain may have slipped off the idler sprocket gear during assembly. It is a PITA to get everything lined up with only two hands.

Or it's possible the cam sprocket bolt was not tightened properly and sheared off the pin that it mates with.

I'd be hesitant of doing any more powered cranking, since it's true the pistons could hit the valves if something is too far off. Breaker bar on the crank bolt is good (remove battery cable!)
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Pretty sure I've found my smoking gun but curious as to what others think here's my timing marks and I believe my LH cam is 1 tooth off
 

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It's hard to tell but it looks like you might be off a bit toward the left in the top picture and a bit to the left on the big sprocket too. Anyway, of course once it moves a rotation or three it's becomes impossible to tell. I'd just start over using the FSB procedure to be sure. There's a good YouTube vid some guys did on this. They use rubber bands to hold the chains where they need to be on the sprockets. I tried that and it worked pretty well. I think I also used small zip ties at one point. You just have to be careful once you snip them off that they don't fall into the oil pan. Drape a rag over it.

I had a lot of anxiety and uncertainty before the first time but I found it to be pretty easy and straightforward. The second time was easy as cake. Technically, I believe the darkened chain links could be ignored but they really help to verify that everything is in place where it's supposed to be.
 
You're way off on those marks. In the top pic the dark link is supposed to be above the "L" on the sprocket and the "V8" is supposed to be straight up at 12:00 o'clock. Second pic the sprocket looks to be in the right spot however the dark link is supposed to above the "R" on the sprocket. In the third and bottom pic the marks on the sprockets look ok but the double dark links are supposed to be lined up on either side with the top sprocket mark at 12:00 o'clock, and the single dark link is to be lined up with the bottom sprocket mark at 6:00 o'clock. While all this is going on you have to look through the windows of the middle driven from the crank sprocket to see another double set of dark links on each chain going to its respective head to make sure they are in the right place. He explains those starting at 29:15 in the video. All these conditions of location MUST be perfect. Seriously watch the video I posted starting at 17:30. He explains all of this very clearly.
 
You need to rotate the engine by hand until the CRANK and IDLER sprocket dimples align properly with the dark marks on the chain. It's too easy to estimate wrong based on the placement of the dimples. Hopefully when those line up, the cam marks will line up too and you'll see that you're off by a tooth or two.

In a perfect world, as long as the alignment dimples are in the right spot you could put the chains on however you want. The dark links don't change the timing one bit, but they DO eliminate all possibility of alignment errors.
 
He is WAY more than one tooth off. As I have said more then once, watch the video!! The crank sprocket mark MUST be at 6 o'clock and the upper sprocket driven by the crank MUST have its marks at 12 o'clock. The chain that connects the two has 3 dark links, a single one and a double one. The single dark link MUST line up with the mark on the crank sprocket at 6 o'clock position and the double dark links MUST "straddle" the mark on the driven sprocket at the 12 o'clock position, see 19:15 in the video. Each chain going up to the heads also have a set of double dark links and one single dark link. The double dark links on each chain MUST be visible though the oval "windows" in the large crank driven sprocket, explained at 26:00 of the video, stop it at 27:12 to see this. The cam sprocket on the drivers side, or "L" has the letter L on it with a dot above the letter. The single dark link MUST line up with that dot, the dowel on the cam will be pretty much straight up in the 12 o'clock position, and the "V8" mark will be straight up also in the 12 o'clock position, start the video at 27:50 to see how this works. Pay attention to the part where the double marks have to be visible through the window in the large crank driven sprocket, they must be visible to get the single dark link in the proper position, see 29:17 in the video. At 32:25 the passenger side, "R" gets done just just like the drivers side, with the dark link lined up with the dot above the "R" on the sprocket and the V8 at the 12 o'clock position, the cam dowel has to be at the 12 o'clock position also, it's just like the drivers side. At 32:27 he explains with the diagram exactly the correlation between the double dark links visible through the large sprocket windows and the single dark link at the cam. The lighting is not perfect but if you freeze frame at 37:15 you can see each dark link on the cam sprockets and the double links on the large crank driven sprocket and how they are lined up. The only way this will happen is if ALL the links and marks are lined up exactly the way I and the video describe. Notice in the pic at 37:15 how much different the positions are from the pic posted, off way more than a tooth. The only way to fix it is to remove the chains and redo it making sure ALL the marks and links are lined up. Do that and I guarantee it will start up and run correctly if the rest of the engine is healthy. As stated the dark links themselves have no bearing on the timing. However they are there to ensure the rest of the components line up, if one of them is off even a tooth the whole system will be off. So while they don't actually have an effect after installation it is imperative to have them in exactly the right position DURING installation to get the timing right, that is exactly why they are there.
 
The colored links will change position after the engine has been turned over. Since the sprockets all have different number of teeth, the colored links will eventually work they way around at different speeds. If you turn it over you will eventually get the links to line up how they describe in the manual or the vid you posted. Yes they need to be in the exact position during assembly but we do not know what that position is any more. Best guess is to line up the dimples and it appears he is close, but still off.
You cannot be off by ANY links or the engine will not operate properly or at all.
It's obvious something is wrong and the only solution is tolremove everything and realign using the procedure in the video. Double... TRIPLE check your work before you put everything back together.
 
Exactly. That is why I emphasized the importance of them being perfect during installation. I should have been more specific about that, I should have mentioned that the marks will change with an engine revolution. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Dark links.. exactly where they're supposed to be..any suggestions? I'm sorry the pictures suck it's freezing in my garage lol.
 

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Yep! Those look good to me. Now have the crank sprocket mark at 6 o'clock with the single dark link of the chain lined up with it and the big sprockets mark straight up at 12 o'clock and the double dark links straddling that mark at the same time the marks in your pics are where they are now and you're all set.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Yep! Those look good to me. Now have the crank sprocket mark at 6 o'clock with the single dark link of the chain lined up with it and the big sprockets mark straight up at 12 o'clock and the double dark links straddling that mark at the same time the marks in your pics are where they are now and you're all set.
I haven't taken anything back off (in terms of the chains, sprockets) since the other pictures. I just rotated the engine until they lined back up. This is why I'm so ******** lost on this and ready to just push it into traffic. I cannot find where I went wrong at first I thought I might be a tooth off on the LH sprocket but I don't see it after rolling the motor over a dozen times. Being under the weather and busy as hell with my day job is driving me nuts which isn't helping.
 
Rotate the engine and verify the camshaft is actually rotating. After seeing your photos, the two cams are in sync with each other and should be responding identically. Take a close look at the friction weld on the camshaft. I'm wondering if that has broken, or back to my original suspicion of the cam tab shearing off.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Dowel pin broken clean off, gonna center drill it..install a new pin and hope to God I didn't destroy any valves. Worst case I'll be doing the valves next week ugh at least I found I didn't time it wrong and **** just broke.
 
That's good (but bad) news. Did you find all parts of the broken dowel pin? If you didn't, pray that it's in the oil pan so it can drain out (or find it with a magnetic pickup). You don't want that getting sucked into the chain/sprockets!
If you're lucky, the cam rested in a slightly neutral position that kept the valves closed enough.
I don't know how much interference there is, but I believe it's only on the intake valves and can't be more than a few millimeters. Should be obvious with a compression check.
 
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