Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner

Utah Road Trip with Jeep & Trailer - Sept. 2014

6957 Views 30 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  grogie
Since buying my TJ new back in 2005, every other year my wife and I would drive it to Colorado where we both grew up for camping and Jeep trails. I have typically always posted photos here in fact. Well it had always been a challenge to pack with what would fit in the back of the Jeep. I always had an idea of a trailer and so now with a trailer that was built in 2013, I immediately thought about planning a trip to Utah for 2014. Pulling a trailer with a two-door Jeep is not something to do without much consideration, as I didn't want the trailer to push the Jeep around over long distances.

Last fall we took a test run with the trailer closer to home to the Michigan U.P. (previous trip here). The trailer towed great!

However I was done with ground tents, as it was no longer just sleeping bags, but also pads and cots, and I was still basically on the ground. Plus setting up camp was more work which didn't encourage spending just one night at a location and moving on. Last fall I ordered a Tepui Ayer roof top tent for the top of the trailer, which has been a huge improvement to camping. And an RTT is so much faster to setup and as well so much more comfortable!

So I actually started to plan this Utah trip 14 months earlier. I bought a bunch of trail maps and the Charles Wells guide to Moab. My original must see was Alstrom Point above Lake Powell (which unfortunately we couldn't get to). Which going to the Lake Powell area meant that we'd drive through the southern part of the state. Of course Moab was on the list of destinations, and after going there, next time we'll spend just two weeks there!

At the end of my trailer build thread I mentioned my impressions of the trailer, towing and the roof top tent, which I'll leave mostly to that thread. But otherwise the trip details:
  • On the road for 15 days
  • 4200 miles
  • 322 gallons of gas (I think!)
  • Average MPG: 13
  • Worst tank: 10.5 MPG (from Colorado border to Denver)
  • Best tank: 15.5 MPG (Rifle, Colorado to Denver… lots of hills to roll down... which is like free gas!)
  • Slept in tent: 9 nights
  • Motel/family/B&B: 5 nights
  • Most expensive night: $234 at the Hampton Inn in Moab :eek:
  • Lest expensive night: $13 (with hot showers) at the Wallace State Park in Missouri :thumbsup:

Day 1-2:
It's always a long drive from Indiana to Colorado. Kansas is always a long state and I highly dislike the drive on I-70 from St. Louis to Kansas City. My wife has helped drive in the past some (she can't see over the hood!), and after I again felt confident about the ease of towing the trailer on the highway at 70-75 mph, she again took the wheel on the second half of Kansas.

See less See more
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
DAY 3:
We left Colorado Springs early on a Monday morning with the destination of the Haviland Lake campground south of Ouray. In the past we've spent a lot of time around Ouray, as my parents once lived nearby. It's an awesome area and I highly recommend visiting the area to anyone with a Jeep!

Anytime driving over Monarch Pass and the continental divide, I always have to stop for a picture. We ended up crossing three mountain passes that were each over 10,500 ft. The Jeep did okay towing up those with its stock 3.73 gears, but it did get down to 45 mph with pulling the 1100# trailer. We then stopped in Ridgway for dinner at the local brewery, however we found that they were closed on Mondays. So instead we headed over to the local grocery store and a liquor store for local Colorado wine, as we figured we'd just have meat, cheese, bread and wine for dinner at the campsite. As we drove through Ouray and south on the million dollar highway, it started to rain, and in fact we had driven through rain off and on throughout the day (it always seems to rain in Ouray). I was hoping that the rain would stop, and fortunately by the time we reached Haviland Lake an hour later, the rain had cleared for the rest of the evening.

After three days of driving, we were tired so we had dinner and enjoyed the quietness of being among Aspen trees in the Rockies. It was a good night. This was also my wife's first night in the tent, which worked out well. The Ayer model is the small version, but there was room enough for two and it was warm and cozy.

See less See more
Day 4:
We did hear rain off and on throughout the night. The tent is well made and it remained dry inside. However at 5 am it was lightly raining. said that it was going to be raining harder by 8 am, so we made the decision to break down the tent early and move on. My wife started to boil hot water for coffee, and before the coffee was ready I had the tent closed up and the trailer was ready go to! (I hadn't unhooked the trailer from the Jeep.)

Due to being ahead of schedule for the day, and passing through Silverton, we decided to head into Durango to see the Durango, Silverton train leave the local train station at 8 am, along with to find a place for breakfast. 17 years ago when my wife and I were dating, and while she was out of state on an internship, I flew her home for a long 4th of July weekend and we road the train. (Which we highly recommend the bar car at the end!) So it was fun to see the train again. We also had an awesome breakfast at the Durango Diner, which is an old, very cool diner where the cook cooks breakfast right in front of the long counter. The food was outstanding!

We then made our way west from the rolling mountains around Durango and into the desert of Utah. This had been the third day of rain that was failing in Utah, and wow, for all of the roads, paved, dirt roads and Jeep trials, they all had damage from mud, ruts, washouts to minor creeks still flowing. The first dirt road we came to was through Valley of the Gods, which as I've read is described as what a national park use to look like before it became a park. Immediately when we turned off of the paved road a sign warned, "Impassable When Wet" with a creek crossing. Big deal, we'll check it out! Once crossing the creek, it looked like a well maintained dirt road. There was minor standing water in places. We stopped along different places for pictures. It was overcast and sprinkling rain, but the views were outstanding like a John Wayne western!

As the 17 mile road progressed, up near the north end of the road, there began to be a lot more ruts, rocks, and creeks to cross. I did use four-wheel low on several occasions on climbs just incase. I also used just the trailer brakes on a steep, narrow decent in one place. I was most impressed with the trailer! In other areas I was flying down the road! As the trial continued, we had another good water crossing and the MTR tires on both my Jeep and trailer where slinging the red mud. It was fun!

That night we planned to stop at a B&B along the road as I figured my wife needed a nice place for the night after four long days of driving. The location of the B&B was outstanding! As we arrived rain started to fall hard. With all of the mesas and red cliffs around, it turned to some flash flooding. We were glad to off of the dirt road. The B&B had once been a 1930s ranch house, which we stayed in what was once the root cellar of the ranch. We sat on the porch of the root cellar and enjoyed a most beautiful sunset with some Colorado wine, including to take an evening walk down along what had just been a hard running creek. The change in colors and shadows were most impressive.

Day 5:
The owners of the B&B were old hippies. The husband was personable and we enjoyed talking with him. His wife on the other hand was not. I'm sure that she saw the NRA sticker on my Jeep, and the next morning during breakfast she made us feel that we weren't welcome. It was a bit odd. This B&B generally seems to have people lined up to pay them $150 a night to stay there, so I guess they can pick and choose who they want? So after breakfast, I thanked the husband for his hospitality (the wife made herself unavailable), and I even left a tip as I always do, so we left.

We then made our way into Arizona. The landscape being north of Monument Valley was as well impressive. While stopping for fuel on a reservation, I did have a run in with a local. I'm not sure that he was sober at 10 am, and he was missing his front teeth and was a big boy. I've read stories of guys on expeditions around the world with dealing with panhandlers in what felt like a different country, and their advice. He promptly attempted to put himself in my face (seriously), so I took that advice and told him to back off! He acted insulted, but he did walk away from me and move onto someone else. :laugh:

Our next stop was Page, Arizona, where we found a Safeway for groceries. I also sprayed off the Jeep and trailer, stopped at Glenn Canyon dam, and headed to a BLM office in Bigwater, Utah.

My plan was to check on the condition of the road to Alstrom Point. At the BLM office I was asked what was I driving? I said a Jeep, but I didn't include a trailer as few people know that an "expo" trailer is not the average trailer. The guy at the office warned me of two water crossings and that no one had been up there since the rain to check out the road conditions. He was not recommending it. Hum… So I decided I'd go check out the road that headed out of the small town. There was a steep road down to the first water crossing. The water looked okay, but the previous rain had washed away the side of climb on the other side. It looked a bit muddy yet and there was nothing to winch too. If I had another Jeep with me, or at least not the trailer, I would have felt good enough to go for it. I did have with me a set of MaxTrax, but, the trailer could be sitting in the water if the Jeep sank at all in the mud on the other side.

So… No need to ruin the trip as it had just started!

Months ago I had considered a back up plan for NPS beach front camping on the northwest end of Lake Powell. And wow, that was a great backup! The sand was fine and deep in places, but I immediately aired down the Jeep's tires and went for it. There were a number of RVs in the good spots, so we took a far end spot which did mean more sand to drive through. I had to spin the trailer around so that it was an easier way out when I stopped. I did find that it's most challenging to have to back up a trailer in sand, as unless the trailer is straight, it just gets pushed backwards rather then turning! I ended up parking the Jeep and trailer near the edge of the water as it was the most level spot. And we setup camp!

Again, this was an awesome place to spend a night. The wife and I made pan fried pizzas for dinner and had more wine. The temperature was nice, we had shade behind the Jeep and tent, and the sunset was again awesome over the water. We did try out the water too, which was decently warm. I also fired up the Campfire in a Can thanks to having the propane tank. Once we went to bed, we left the side windows open on the tent (just the screens) and the moon was shinning in the tent over the water. It sounded as well as if we were in a boat!

See less See more
Day 6:
The following morning the sunrise was spectacular over the water! It was unique to camp so close to the water's edge and was peaceful to wake up to. Of course beach camping means that sand begins to get everywhere! So we again packed up the tent, including a privacy tent (the NPS provided outhouses, however with the distance that we were at from one, they required that we have our own facilities). The previous night I had witnessed several trucks get stuck in the sand, so I gave the Jeep some gas and cruised my way off of the beach.

Also the day before at the BLM office, I had asked if the nearby Cottonwood Canyon Road was as well open? Our next destination was Kodachrome State Park which was at the other end of this road from where we were at. Stories on the internet had told me that this 43 mile road is also impassable when wet due to that the red clay and sand mix when wet and will stick to tires. When raining or after it had rained, people would get stuck and have to wait until the road dried out. Of course the BLM had the road listed as closed. So we took the long way around to Kodachrome. However by paved road, the travel time was actually the same. I was a bit disappointed by not being able to drive up Cottonwood Canyon.

We later arrived at Kodachrome, which is a beautiful and clean state park with it's campground that sits inside a canyon. It also had hot showers, a small store, and lots of trails to explore in the area. I had only planned for two nights at this park, and there was so much more to see which means that we'll be returning here someday.

A cool hiking path... watch your step!

God must have a sense of humor. Utah and its rocks!

More to come as we do head south on Cottonwood Canyon Road!
See less See more
Day 7:
For our second day at Kodachrome, I decided that I wanted to go explore Cottonwood Canyon Road to see if it really was closed? There was a road closure sign up at just outside the state park, but it had been pushed to one side of the road, so we took off down the road. There is private land along this road and I noticed several ranch trucks in a nearby field so there were people using the road. As we continued on, we came to a wide creek crossing that had a lot of mud. There were two routes through the crossing, and there were also tire tracks so several others had crossed it. It was not at all a big deal for the Jeep, so we did to.

One of the destinations along this road is Grosvenor Arch which I wanted to at least drive too. After crossing a pass, we made our way to the arch. There were some wet spots, but the road was drying out and the MTRs were doing their job well. Grosvenor Arch is impressive! It sits out on it's own like it's a castle. Worth driving too and I'm glad that we didn't miss it! As we were there, the sun began to heat up the place, and it's always amazing to step into shade as it always feels like it's 20 degrees cooler.

We then decided to head further south to what I believe is called the Coxcomb in a small valley. The BLM office back in Bigwater had made it sound like this was area was closed due to a washout. I found no problems with the road south to this point, or with the road through this canyon. It was beautiful! I could see returning along this road for hiking and even to camp along it.

The return drive to Kodachrome, where oddly enough we found cell phone reception!

See less See more
Day 8:
On our last morning at Kodachrome, we packed up the trailer, closed the tent up, and it was nice to have a hot shower before hitting the road. I again had to take a picture of this famous rock! Funny thing was that a nearby campsite looked right at! How about that for a view out of your trailer?! :D

Our destination for the day was a drive north for dispersed (remote) camping above Cathedral Valley in the Capitol Reef National Park. After a two hour plus drive and stopping for groceries and gas in Loa, Utah, we turned off of Highway 72 onto an NSP road (FR206) headed east. The road was in decent condition and it had some dispersed camping along the road. I saw a fifth wheel trailer about five miles back so people were at least taking travel trailers to that point. After that, the road went over a mountain through Aspen groves and then proceeded to get narrow and lost elevation by 2,000 feet as it headed into the desert. The views below were once again outstanding!

Image uploading. Refresh page to view

After about 19 miles we entered the National Park, where the road turned rougher as there were a lot of rocks to drive over, almost like a river bed for about four miles. The trailer did great as it just followed along. We then found our campsite for the night. There was nothing there but a few fire pits, and the park had also constructed an outhouse! What else does a guy need?!

And this was the nearby view...

I did light up the Campfire in a Can that night and stayed up late. It was dark out here, a bit spooky, and the stars were amazing! There are a number of trails running through the area. My wife actually wanted to spend more time here in roaming around. This camping spot would make for a nice home base for in the future.

Next stop… Moab!
See less See more
Great trip!
Days 9 and 10:

About the only bugs that we ran into was at this campsite as whenever the sun was up, gnats and flies were visiting us. I'm not sure why this particular spot? (Or do I want to know?)

After packing up the tent we took a final walk to look at the view of Cathedral Valley again. The beautiful blue sky gave the desert again another look to it. I was seriously considering to drive that trail that goes through the canyon below, but again that would have taken us off of schedule for the day. So we headed back out how we drove in and stopped along the way for again the awesome views. We'll return here for sure! Soon we were on I-70 east towards Moab.

Okay, so first I have to say that I could see spending easily two weeks in Moab, and on more then just one trip! Not to mention the national and state parks, there are of course a lot of trails! There was way too much to see for the few days that I had planned. I recall driving through Moab last in the summer of 1990 and it's certainly grown since then.

So we rolled into Moab and met old friends from Denver for lunch at the Moab Brewery. Nearby we also found a laundry mat, and we then had a date with a shower at the Hampton Inn (which was our most expensive accommodations along the trip at $234!). It was nice to have a room to sort out our clothes, the cooler, etc., and to get ready for camping at Deadhorse State Park and Arches. We also were out late again that night with our friends for dinner at a pretty cool restaurant called the Desert Bistro. Their chef's cooking was fantastic and worth the splurge.

That day I also parked near a parking lot of rental Jeeps, including this one... Now that must have made for an interesting vacation?!

The following morning it was nice to sleep in, and with air conditioning. The weather had been fairly decent, but each night in the roof top tent we had kept the side windows open, still we rarely used the sleeping bags as it had been fairly warm each night.

I first headed to the local City Market for groceries for the next two nights and the daily bag of ice to top off the cooler. For lunch we stopped at Pantele's Desert Deli for sandwiches. I also stopped in at the Moab visitors center and asked about the trail to Gemini Bridges? An old guy thought that it was open as usually, but was quick to include that it "is a Jeep trail." Of course it is!

We all headed out of Moab with our friends following us in their pickup. Five minutes after hitting the trial is where the climb up the mesa begins. I saw a YouTube video before the trip that showed the climb in what looked like it was in much better condition the what we found. The recent rain was tough on this trail too. Our friends told us that it was fun watching the trailer follow my Jeep along. There were some pretty good climbs, and the trailer easily followed along. The color and video quality aren't the best, but I did run my GoPro from the front of my Jeep of the climb that shows the trail condition.

Once reaching the top of the mesa where we found a wide, level place, we stopped for pictures and continued on.

About a half-hour later we parked and walked a short trail to the two bridges. I've read that at one time Jeeps were allowed to drive over the top of at least one. There is a trail that leads to the bridges from below but that's for a future trip. The trail was fun to drive with the Jeep and trailer! We had a few people checking out the trailer that passed us along the route.

Following Gemini Bridges, we continued west then south to Deadhorse State Park to camp for the night. Upon dropping the trailer and setting up camp (our friends were most interested to see the RTT open), we then headed down the road further for the views! The Colorado river runs below the park, along with Potash Road and the Shafer Trail that we drove the following day. Upon seeing the sites, we returned to the campsite and grilled burgers, a really bad side dish from a box, and had more wine. And not to mention plenty of more ice water! The setting sun that evening was intense.

Once the sun was down, our friends stayed around to watch me try my hand at night photography. The stars were again amazing. Unfortunately the battery on my camera's remote went dead, along with image preview for some reason stopped temporarily working (heat and elevation?), so I was having to manually trigger the camera. However I did get a decent picture of the Big Dipper.

See less See more
Day 11:

This day was going to be a long day so we headed out as soon as the sun rose. First we drove down Long Canyon, which starts near Deadhorse and quickly drops in elevation to just above the Colorado River. I think this trail would be a lot of fun to drive uphill due to steep climbs and lose rock. It's a stunningly gorgeous canyon to drive down. The first really cool moment is literally when I came around a turn and saw this rock ahead. From this distance it looks like it's blocking the road! Although I had read about this rock, and actually there is plenty of room to drive under it. That's how big that rock is!

Note the balancing rock...

The canyon was again most impressive. At the end of the trail we turned onto Potash Road which my wife took the wheel and drove us onto Shafer Trail headed to Canyon Lands, which it was nice to sit in the passenger seat and enjoy the view while my wife got some time behind the wheel. Chicks look cool driving a 4x4! :)

Both Potash and Shafer showed signs of damage from the rain. We also crossed a long "lake", which while I was checking out it's depth, a crossover and pickup came up behind me. I determined that it was fine to cross, but both vehicles after watching me plow through the water decided not to follow. Shame! As the view only got better!

We stopped along the Colorado River for this picture.

Upon continuing on, it looked like the road ends up above, but it didn't of course as it heads up a number of switchbacks. The switchbacks were wide enough or two vehicles to pass, but in between the turns it was generally only wide enough for one vehicle at a time. We passed a few Jeeps in the switchbacks.

Even when standing on the edge of the drop off overlooking the switchbacks below, you can't even see them all. It was a most impressive drive.

Upon reaching the top of the swtichbacks, we picked up a paved road again that headed south into Canyon Lands National Park. The park is huge! It really made our heads spin at the size. One could easily spend a week or more just driving and hiking around it. The White Rim trail I'm sure would be an awesome adventure!

We spent the day mostly sticking to the tourist hikes and views, which it had its share of tourists. The first picture below is actually looking back at Deadhorse State Park with the Colorado River below it.

After along day in the heat and sun, we returned to Deadhorse. Fortunately there is a small store at the park that sold ice cream, cold water and most importantly ice! Thank you! After cooking chili for dinner and some ice cold Utah brews, we returned to the point to watch the sun set. It was neat again to see the road down below that we drove earlier that day...

See less See more
A GoPro video of driving down Long Canyon. I edited the video down to about seven minutes. It looked like a bulldozer had been in to clean up a water crossing near the end. I also found it humorous that a few road signs were placed along the way. Be sure to make that right turn! :laugh:

Nice report, looks like an awesome trip.

During my trip to Moab in 2011 we were going up Long Canyon when we met a lady in a Jeep, driving down, with a flat tire. Much to our surprise a few minutes after we stopped to help here, her friend came walking down the canyon with her dog. We couldn't believe she drove off, on the flat, and left her friend walking. She told us she was trying to get cell service, so she could call triple A. LOL!
^Good story, Jeff! I wouldn't think AAA would respond well around Moab. :laugh: Thanks for the comments.

And... Another video of driving up the switchbacks on the Shafer Trail.

I haven't done Shafer yet....those shelf roads are always fun. Love the views out there, hope to live out there in about 5 years (fingers crossed).

I'd like to see the trailer in action on Top of the World, or Fins-N-Things.
Days 12:

Fortunately the morning started with a little cloud cover for the rising sun. The Utah sun, even in September gets intense. We closed up the tent, packed up the trailer and left Deadhorse for Moab. We did tourist shopping and had a nice lunch at an Italian restaurant.

Afterwards we headed to the City Market to restock the cooler. After going back to the Jeep with the groceries, we were putting things away when I realized that I needed another bag of ice, so I headed back in. When I returned, some dude was standing nearby smoking and just starring at my setup. He was making my wife most uncomfortable as he wasn't there to chat. So I made eye contact with him like, "WTF do you want?" Weird. He proceeded to walk away.

So we headed into Arches next. The plan was to spend two nights there. Arches is also a big park, so by the time we arrived at our campsite it was in the upper 90s and our spot had NO shade. The rocks were like RADIATING heat. I quickly opened the tent up which provided enough shade for us to sit behind. We drank a lot of cold water and just sat there until after 6 pm. I think I might have slept! It was still so hot that we had no interest in cooking a hot meal.

We instead decided to go watch the sun set at the Windows.

Arch overhead… note the rock in the crack… that's going to hurt someone if that ever comes down.

Days 13 to the End:

That night it had been the warmest night of the trip. Originally I had planned for a full day trail ride for our last day in Moab which included Hurrah Pass and Chicken Corners. However we had both woke up tired, sunburned and just done. It had been fun and we saw incredible sites, but, if we headed out today, then that would give me a day at home to relax before having to return to (sigh) work... So again we packed up and headed into Moab for a late breakfast, and then off to Denver.

This was our end of the Arches campground, which was really nice (minus the lack of shade anywhere... which must be brutal in July and August!).

I do regret not spending more time in Moab, however there is always another trip for that. "Hey, it's just a three day drive from home anyway!"

Of course I really didn't get to see the multitude of the Jeep trails around Moab. I can see the benefit of doing group runs as there are some isolated areas. The parks on the other hand, at least where the tourists are, are crowded. I think my favorite two parks in Utah were Kodacrhome State Park and Cathedral Valley, simply as there were so few people anywhere around. In Cathedral we were the only ones... (Minus Bigfoot?!).

I did spend one more night in the tent. I stopped at Wallace State Park in Missouri for the final night on the road. I made it to this park 20 minutes before they closed the gate at 10 pm. When I got out of my Jeep to pay the $13 fee, the humidity hit me like a rock. The value of the roof top tent is that in pitch black darkness (as it was a heavily wooded park), I had the tent open and setup in just a few minutes. I then reached into the cooler, pulled out an ice cold Utah beer and went to bed.

I think the last 200 miles home of the 4,200 felt the longest. But it had been an awesome road trip. And having the trailer and the tent on top of it was golden. Best trip out west yet!

And thanks for following along. :thumbsup:
See less See more
I haven't done Shafer yet....those shelf roads are always fun. Love the views out there, hope to live out there in about 5 years (fingers crossed).

I'd like to see the trailer in action on Top of the World, or Fins-N-Things.
I could see retiring in Utah, but hopefully that is a long time off yet!

This was also a good trip to see how the trailer performed. I think my biggest concern would to roll it on it's side. It does tow easy, and I do love the idea of camping in remote places.

Again, not only is it nice to have the extra storage that the trailer has brought, but putting the RTT on top... wow! Over the entire trip, it was the most comfortable sleep, plus the setup is so fast. It's not a big deal to break camp after just one night and move on...

The one issue that I need to resolve is to carry more water.
I'd love to have me one of those tent/trailer set ups...very nice. I've been out west the last 4 years, three off those in the Jeep, two of those to Moab and one to Ouray..... I'm addicted. Hopefully next year its the Rubicon Trail.....I may need to borrow your trailer. :)
Oh, last picture of the trip! (Really.)

I added a new sticker on the back (top, left).

See less See more
:cool: Now that was really STUPENDOUS Grogie--hellof a trip and wonderful video-

Kudos to your wife and the good old TJ-

I've mounted my "Kuke" on my trailer and the pics are in the TEPUI post-on expeditionportal !

:tea: JIMBO
Cool Jimbo. I'll check out expeditonP. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the comments. And yes, the wife was a good girl. She was only grumpy once with me, which happened to be when she was wearing the pink shirt! :gunfight:
What a great trip report! Awesome! :highfive:

Very cool trailer and that tent set up is really neat!!! :thumbsup: (of course I had to read your build thread that goes along with it)

I think I've been to most of the places you visited in Utah... but I agree Moab is the place of places! We were there back in May. Planning on going back in 2015 with the NorCal group as long as things work out. Time to plan another vacation and come back in spring/May and join us! :cheers2:

Great video of Long canyon. I've got to get a Go-pro! I tried to hand hold my video cam most of the way down b/c I was driving solo and it was just a 'bit' shaky. lol Btw... anyone listening to Ted Nugent whilst wheeling in Moab has got to be good people!!! :D

Yes, lodging in Moab can be pricey. Some not too bad if you plan in advance. But a little tip... most of the RV resorts have single cabins and some have showers included. The wifey and I found one @ the Riverside Oasis RV park and it was well under $100 a night. Standard RV sites much less and they still have walk in showers.

WRM :cheers:
See less See more
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.