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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I went to order a Truetrac for both my front and rear axles today, and was told by the retailer that there is no Truetrac application for my rear, a 1996 Dana 35c. Reason: too much endplay in the axles due to a 0.030 difference in cross pin diameter. Solution: custom machine work or sleeve. Ouch.

Question: Is this info correct? If you have successfully installed and operated a Truetrac in a 1996 or later ZJ, would you please tell me how it went and if possible what Truetrac model number you used?

Front Dana 30 does not seem to be a problem, but comment on this too if you have exp.

Thx.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What does the cross pin diameter has to do with truetrac?!
:dunno: That's what I said, but then, if I knew the answer to this, I wouldn't be asking for help.

So, are you just posing a question, or are you saying there is no cross pin in the Truetrac Dana 35c application?
 

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I may be making some language mistake (I'm not a native English speaker), but from what I know, cross pin is the pin that holds the spider gears on their place. With truetrac you replace whole carrier, and there is no such thing as a cross pin, because the spider gears (worm gears) have rotation axis horizontally. TT is also c-clip ready as producer states, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work- they probably made it to fit as OEM. I know few people that run TT in their rear D35c and noone mentioned about any problems. Just plug&play.

Maybe your retailer was thinking about lock-right or something like that? With lunchbox lockers indeed, the cross pin diameter is very important.
 

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I may be making some language mistake (I'm not a native English speaker), but from what I know, cross pin is the pin that holds the spider gears on their place. With truetrac you replace whole carrier, and there is no such thing as a cross pin, because the spider gears (worm gears) have rotation axis horizontally. TT is also c-clip ready as producer states, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work- they probably made it to fit as OEM. I know few people that run TT in their rear D35c and noone mentioned about any problems. Just plug&play.

Maybe your retailer was thinking about lock-right or something like that? With lunchbox lockers indeed, the cross pin diameter is very important.
I didn't think the TrueTrac was a full-case locker. I thought it just replaced the spiders and not the carrier itself?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
...cross pin is the pin that holds the spider gears on their place. With truetrac you replace whole carrier, and there is no such thing as a cross pin, because the spider gears (worm gears) have rotation axis horizontally...
Brilliantly insightful. And wrong;).

If you go here http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_128482.pdf
and scroll down to the instructions on installing truetrac in the Dana 35c, you will see that the TrueTrac for Dana 35c does indeed have a cross pin. Call it a dummy cross pin if you like -- it is there to fulfill one of the jobs that the now-missing spider gear cross pin performed. That job is to limit inward linear (co-axial) travel in the axle shafts. The C-clips limit outward travel, but are too sloppy to limit travel in both directions. So truetrac provides this dummy cross pin as a substitute. Now what I am told (by the retailer, not Eaton, mind you) is that the 94 and newer Dana 35 had a slightly larger cross pin than the older model, and the pin provided with the TrueTrac unit was sized for the older cross pin, thus is 0.030 too small, allowing 0.015 too much end play in each axle.

You learn something new every day. Every day that you spend countless hours on the internet trying to track down some arcane engineering fact about a product no one cares about and an axle everyone hates, that is.
 

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That's quite interesting, I haven't thought about it that way. I will ask my friends with truetracs in Poland about it.

On the other hand, considering how much play c-clipped axles have, I find it hard to believe that extra 0.015" may matter ;)

Maybe the best way is to ask guys at Eaton?
 

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I would think that if it's been happening since '94 TrueTrac would have corrected the problem by now
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
That's quite interesting, I haven't thought about it that way. I will ask my friends with truetracs in Poland about it.

On the other hand, considering how much play c-clipped axles have, I find it hard to believe that extra 0.015" may matter ;)

Maybe the best way is to ask guys at Eaton?
1) Thank you for asking your friends. I appreciate your help, and would be very interested in any comments from your friends regarding the Truetrac (end play issue, performance, durability, capability). ZJ is my daily driver, and a family vehicle, in a snowy, icy, muddy region of the US. I need more traction both on and off road, but it must be well-mannered on the highway (so no lockers for me).

2) Good hypothesis about the extra play not mattering. However, I do wonder if it would affect the warranty from TrueTrac if I install it in an application not recommended by Eaton. Also, I'm no engineer, but seems to me that too much linear travel will, at some point, place bad thrust loads on the wheel bearings during cornering, no?

3) I have followed your suggestion and now have a phone call in to a product manager at Eaton, and will try to get some email response from them to post on this forum.

Thanks :cheers2:.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Resolved...for now.

Maybe the best way is to ask guys at Eaton?
Done. And here is what Eaton says.

Not all Dana 35c axles have the same cross pin diameter. Older ones were fitted with 0.685" diameter pin. Newer ones fitted with 0.716" diameter pin. Eaton product manager I spoke with says Eaton not sure which vehicles may be equipped with smaller or larger pins, so doen't claim that ZJ has this issue. May or may not.

Nevertheless, Eaton does specify TrueTrac model 912A569 for Dana 35c. THis model does come with a cross pin sized to replace the older, smaller diameter cross pin. Recommends that upon set up installer measure axle end play and if determined to be excessive, remedy by building up end of axles slightly.
 

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BTW, one thing that crossed my mind- I checked part numbers for axle shafts for various years of ZJ production. The idea is simple- if the axle shafts didn't change it must mean, that either the cross pin doesn't matter for them, OR that the cross pin wasn't changed in ZJ.
And so:
98 ZJ: 4762 194 (right), 4762 195 (left)
97 ZJ: 4762 194 (right), 4762 195 (left)
94-96 ZJ: 4713 192-3 (drum brakes), 4762 194-5 (disc brakes)
93 ZJ: 4713 192-3

So, in other words, to me it sounds they are most likely the same. There is "-5" difference though, the question is, whether it was changed to keep order (there were few part number changes on exactly the same parts in Jeep history) or something really changed. Maybe it's some note about the side of the vehicle, because the parts list for 94-96 don't specify the side.

Now the other thing is that these axles were used both in grand cherokee and cherokee. I doubt that Eaton would loose the market for 96&up XJ and ZJ.

I already posted a question about this on our Polish forum, we'll see what the answer will be ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
BTW, one thing that crossed my mind- I checked part numbers for axle shafts for various years of ZJ production. The idea is simple- if the axle shafts didn't change it must mean, that either the cross pin doesn't matter for them, OR that the cross pin wasn't changed in ZJ.
You are brilliant. That is a powerful deduction:bowdown:. And so obvious -- after you mention it! But then, should we expect anything less from the land of Joseph Conrad and Stanslaw Lem?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Problem found...and solved!

Bottom line, there is an axle end play issue with TrueTrac in some Dana 35c units, and a pretty simple resolution that will allow it to work properly.

If you have been reading this thread, you can see my Dana 35c TrueTrac install notes and follow-up to this thread here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=523553

Perhaps a moderator would take a moment to look at this write up and decide if it is worthy of posting in the general technical section, since the 35c issue may be of interest to owners of other models as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Bottom line, there is an axle end play issue with TrueTrac in some Dana 35c units, and a pretty simple resolution that will allow it to work properly.
Link broken, so here is the write up:

TrueTrac problem & solution for Dana 35c

Thinking about installing a TrueTrac differential in your Dana 35c rear axle? Then you and your installer should be aware that you may experience a fit problem on this particular axle. If your installer is a competent welder and prepared for the problem, then the fix is simple and adds about an hour of install time. In short, you may need to build up the ends of your axle shafts slightly by welding in order to take up excessive endplay. I know because I just had this install completed, and I experienced the problem.

In its OEM configuration, axle travel in the Dana 35c is limited in the outward direction by c-clips; in the inward direction by the spider gear cross pin. The TrueTrac unit replaces the OEM carrier and spider gears with a helical gear-driven unit. This unit does not have spider gears, and therefore does not feature a cross pin in its design. Without a cross pin, inward travel of the axles must be limited somehow. So, for the Dana 35c, the TrueTrac features a pin-like spacer to limit inward axle travel.

The problem is that Dana 35c axle production spans several years, the axle is used in different applications, and there are at least two different cross pin diameters specified, perhaps related to duty or perhaps related to a global design change, I'm not sure. Yet the TrueTrac unit for this axle is provided with a single spacer pin of a size corresponding to one of the various Dana 35c cross pin diameters.

If the diameter of this pin-like spacer is identical to your OEM cross pin, then all is well, or, at least, your axle endplay should be unchanged.

In my case, the diameter of the TrueTrac spacer is smaller than the cross pin it replaces, so my axle endplay increased by half the difference in the diameters.

My installer, a qualified Jeep mechanic, measured axle end play 0.016 on one axle, and 0.014 on the other before removing the OEM carrier. For the record, he also measured the OEM cross pin diameter at 0.686 inches. We somehow neglected to note the TrueTrac spacer pin diameter, but I will measure it again next time the cover is off (it could be deduced from the other measurements, but I would prefer to report a direct measurement of the spacer pin).

After installing the TrueTrac unit 912A569, he measured axle endplay again, finding it to be about 0.030 on both sides. He explained that a certain amount of endplay or space between the ends of the axle shafts and the cross pin is desirable for thermal expansion, lubrication, etc., but that 0.030 each side was too much, would lead to premature wear somewhere in the assembly, and could probably be felt or heard in cornering. So we decided to build up the ends of each axle slightly by welding, then grind or file back to acceptable tolerance. He did this, achieving final clearances of about 0.006 each side. This required about one hour of extra work.

Axle end play can be measured with the TrueTrac unit in place, so those users who have already installed this device, but are now concerned that they may have excess endplay, could take measurements the next time the differential cover is off.

Ron's Machining Service 1-800-694-3098 deserves special recognition for advising me of this potential problem when I called to order my TrueTrac unit. No other vendor that I spoke with was aware of the problem, even when I asked directly if there was any known problem with a Dana 35c fit. Ron put a sale at risk to advise me of the endplay issue, and then he phoned Eaton (manufacturer of the TrueTrac), as I did, to learn more. Since Ron had the right combination of price, service, knowledge and integrity, I was happy to give him my business. He also shipped quickly - I had my products in less than a week.

Finally, the product manager at Eaton who returned my call was friendly, explained the problem clearly, and suggested the axle build-up solution.

Eaton should provide a choice of spacer pins in the kit with this product. In the meantime, perhaps these notes will help others anticipate this relatively small problem and achieve a better quality installation of the otherwise fine TrueTrac product.
 
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