[ineedabrew]

Ok, I am a little baffled with this one. My jeep is an 86 CJ-7 and I installed a DUI distributor. Works great, I recommend it. Anyway, to get the full constant voltage to the distributor, I wired in a relay just as described here: Classic Inlines - DUI Distributor Installation

I basically used the main red/white ignition wire going into the ignition module as 12 volt power to activate the relay when the ignition switch comes on. I also ran a 10 guage wire from the battery to the relay to be connected to the distributor when the ignition switch is on and the relay closes. Works great, runs great, just won't cut off when I turn off the ignition switch! I don't get it. The only way I can shut off the jeep is to disconnect that main 10 guage wire from the battery. I need an electrical engineer to help me with this one.

Any suggestions?

This is my relay wiring:

 

[JeepHammer]

Where did you get the relay?

Sounds like you have one of two issues...

1. "Latching Relay"
Once a 'Latching Relay' closes, it's self powering and won't open until you break the power feed to the relay.

Latching Relays are fairly rare, but if you salvaged the relay from something else, instead of buying one new (salvage relays are perfectly acceptable, but are sometimes an unknown quantity).

2. You put the relay in without putting a DIODE in the 'Excite' wire to the alternator,
Which is 'Back Feeding' the relay once the engine is running.
The same wire that feeds the ignition coil/module in the factory stock system also excites the alternator in most CJs.

Try unplugging the two wire plug to the alternator, and if your problem goes away, it's the alternator 'Excite' feed that is causing trouble for you.

If your engine shuts down when you turn the key off with the alternator plug loose,
Then it's a simple fix, you will need to drop by Radio Shack and pick up some Diodes,
Radio Shack p/n 276-1443 or 276-1444 and install one (Stripe facing alternator) in the smaller of the two wires feeding the alternator plug.

Here is an example of the diode in the line,

 

[ineedabrew]

You are the master! I pulled the wire you said and sure enough the jeep cuts right off with the switch! Thanks for the quick response Jeephammer...it's been driving me nuts. I got the relay at Advanced Auto parts. How do you guys know this stuff? One more question. I went to radio shack and got a diode. They didn't have the 276-1443 or -1444 but the did have 276-1143 and -1144 so I got a pack of the -1144's. 3 amps- 400PIV ? sound right? Maybe the numbers were off a little....just sound too close to be wrong.

Thanks again!

 

[CJ Chet]

If you are wired according to that diagram, and have a PROPER relay, you don't need a diode. Looks like you have either the wrong relay or a bad one, a diode is no cure for that!
Also, with the DUI distributor you are better off to run a separate relay strictly for the dizzy. That thing can eat alot of juice.

 

[JeepHammer]

If you are wired according to that diagram, and have a PROPER relay, you don't need a diode. Looks like you have either the wrong relay or a bad one, a diode is no cure for that!
Also, with the DUI distributor you are better off to run a separate relay strictly for the dizzy. That thing can eat alot of juice.

Huh?...

First...
The relay he's running IS FOR THE HEI.

Second,
The activation wire for the relay is the old Coil/Module wire, and that wire also feeds the 'Excite' wire to the alternator.
When the alternator starts charging, that wire goes POSITIVE and powers up the relay reguardless if the key switch is on or off.

Third,
The Diode is a ONE WAY ELECTRICAL 'VALVE',
It will let the current from the ignition switch 'Excite' the alternator,
But it won't let the current from the alternator backfeed and power up the relay...

Fourth,
The dedicated relay is EXACTLY what the OP needs, and his diagram is correct.

Fifth,
We've done this HUNDREDS OF TIMES for people in the shop,
And I don't know how many people on the forums!...
And it's ALWAYS worked just fine for all them.

I don't know why you think it won't work for this guy?
-------------------


To the OP,

The diode, stripe facing the alternator, will solve your 'Issues' (no longer a problem now!)...

We've done this before, and diodes come in the aftermarket ignition kits for this very issue...

If you get your own from Radio Shack, it will be $1.50,
If you get it from the aftermarket places, it will be around $15 plus shipping.

-------------------------------

You are the master! I pulled the wire you said and sure enough the jeep cuts right off with the switch! Thanks for the quick response Jeephammer...it's been driving me nuts.

No problem man, I've been doing this quite a while, and some 'Issues' keep coming around time and time again, and this is one of them...
--------------------------------

I got the relay at Advanced Auto parts.

It's good for what you are doing, since the HEI will draw about 5 amps, and those cheap relays are rated at 30 amps, but are only good for 15 or 20 amps.
This application is about tailor made for the relay you are running.
----------------------------------------

How do you guys know this stuff?

40+ years of experience.
Lots of breaking parts I couldn't afford to replace, so I leaned how things worked so I could fix them at home...
Then it turned into a full time job and fairly lucrative business for many years.
----------------------------------------

One more question.
I went to radio shack and got a diode.
They didn't have the 276-1443 or -1444 but the did have 276-1143 and -1144 so I got a pack of the -1144's. 3 amps- 400PIV ? sound right?

Yup, I screwed up the numbers, and either of the ones you listed will work with MUCH room to spare.
You are looking at about 1 amp maximum, and about 14 volts max.
PIV means PEAK INVERSE VOLTAGE, and at 400 you are NEVER going to burn or overheat that diode.

Rectifier Diodes are MUCH TOUGHER than the little bridging diodes or other type of diodes, so I use them.
They just last even when I abuse them! (good thing in a Jeep!)
-------------------------------------

Maybe the numbers were off a little....just sound too close to be wrong.

Yup, I screwed the pooch... Something that happens daily! I get used to it, but other people still make a big deal about it when it happens...

I always challenge them to keep this many part numbers from 11 dozen suppliers right in their heads and that usually stops the argument/razzing!
-----------------------------------

Thanks again!

No problem, glad I could help you get up and running again!

 

[BillyPilgrim]

Hammer, looks like your work is done here, so I don't feel as though I am hijacking and this isn't a big enough deal to bump the thread in question. I asked a question on this thread regarding one of your schematics:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/electric-fan-controller-using-oem-temp-sensor-542209/index5.html

It never moved to the top, the question might be ridiculous but it will satisfy my curiosity.

 

[CJ Chet]

First let me say, I know what a diode is. I was a technician for 35 years. You are absolutely right! That diagram is exactly what he needs, providing he is using the right parts, wired correctly and the distributor is the ONLY device on the circuit. The schematic says "power from ignition switch". That tells me that if you turn off the switch the power goes away and the motor stops. If the motor does not stop it's not wired by the schematic and needs to change. I run my DUI distributor with it's own dedicated relay and a keyed 12 volt source. It works great. Why complicate things with diodes that aren't needed? KISS! According to the schematic, that is NOT a dedicated relay because it is also feeding horn, headlights, etc.

 

[ineedabrew]

Jeephammer, is there any reason this change would affect my ampmeter? I went for a test drive and let me tell ya.....it ran great. Had the kids and it was a little chilly so I cranked on the heater switch. Headlights were on too. Oil pressure seemed to flip around a little more than it ever had and then the ampmeter just went to zero and heater fan switch died. I checked fuses....all ok. Any ideas or interconnected issues with wiring in the diode? Thanks again.

 

[ineedabrew]

Just to clarify. That connection at pin 87 is dedicated to the DUI distributor only. It was kind of a generic relay diagram but that is the intention. You guys know it better than me but just wanted to throw that in there........My problem is every time I fix something another thing pops up...its killing me.

 

[CJ Chet]

Okay! Pin #87 is ONLY the distributor power. That's the way it should be. However, going back to the origional problem, when you turn off pin #86 the motor HAS to stop. If it doesn't something is wrong and it's NOT a missing diode! In a PROPERLY installed harness there is ABSOLUTEY NO REASON FOR A DIODE (unless you want a "lamp test" capability). Pin #86 should be a keyed 12 volts from the OUTPUT side of the starter relay.

 

[JeepHammer]

Okay! Pin #87 is ONLY the distributor power. That's the way it should be. However, going back to the origional problem, when you turn off pin #86 the motor HAS to stop. If it doesn't something is wrong and it's NOT a missing diode! In a PROPERLY installed harness there is ABSOLUTEY NO REASON FOR A DIODE (unless you want a "lamp test" capability). Pin #86 should be a keyed 12 volts from the OUTPUT side of the starter relay.

OK, Chet, you are normally very reasonable and respectful...
What's the deal!
..............................................

AND,
FORGET PIN #87!
#87 is 'OUT' to electrical 'Load' or 'Appliance',
In this case, it's the HEI distributor!

Restricting or Impeding #30 or #87 will simply reduce the amount of current available to the 'Load', 'Device' or 'Appliance' (IE: HEI Distributor!)
....................................................

You CAN NOT "TURN OFF" Pin #86 (or #85, depending on how the 'Power Up' circuit is wired) once the engine is started.

Back feed from the alternator wiring is going to keep pin #85 or #86 'LIVE' once the engine is running...

With a common ignition, the 10 to 15 Ohm resistor wire at the 'Excite' wire line at the plug,
And the 1.35 Ohm resistor wire would be enough to let the ignition 'Quit' when you turned the key switch 'Off'...

This guy has a relay that activates at a MUCH lower current threshold than the factory ignition did on the same line...

SO,
The alternator current back feeding the system keeps the relay CLOSED until you break the connection to the ignition or alternator.

(That was the purpose of unplugging the alternator to test!)
-----------------------

The one simple diode stops the back feed, and since there are at LEAST 9 dedicated diodes in the alternator already (Not counting the semi-conductors in the regulator),
Adding another one isn't an issue...
-----------------------

This would be a better diagram for the wiring,

Since the alternator 'Excite' wire is also powered by the old factory coil wire, the 'Excite' terminal on the alternator will Back Feed the ignition system...

Resistors in place, there isn't enough current to 'RUN' the ignition system on the stock vehicle...

BUT!
It takes MUCH LESS current to operate/activate a relay...
(That is the ENTIRE purpose of the relay's existence!)

A Simple Diode blocking that back feeding into the relay activation line (#85 or #86) will stop the 'Run On' problme the OP is having.

Or you can add more resistor to the line, but resistance will have to be found that will allow the system to operate with the key 'ON', but allow the relay to OPEN when the key switch is 'OFF',
Which will be a balancing act trying to find the correct resistance...

Diode solves the problem all at once, harms nothing, and will last for many years to come... And it's cheap & easy.
The big 'Plus' is, we done it for years and it's ALWAYS worked!
It's a know 'Fix' to this particular problem

 

[CJ Chet]

Sorry Guy! Didn't mean to come off that way. All I'm trying to say is, mine (DUI) is wired just like your diagram with a KEYED 12 volts to energize the relay. When I turn off the key that voltage stops and the engine stops, no backfeeding. I should also mention that I have a Painless harness.

 

[yohan1979]

I have a DUI with the run on issue described above.
I have not yet put the diode in but plan to this week if that's the issue - still diagnosing.

Currently, the wire that's powering the DUI is the former lead to the old coil (yes, I know it draws more than that wire is designed for - I gapped the plugs to draw less current until I figure this out, then I'll open them up to 50 or 55)

What stumps me is why that coil wire will key off the engine when hooked directly to the DUI but will run on with the key off if used to supply the latching signal on my relay???

Can't seem to wrap my fragile little mind around it and I can't draw it out yet because I haven't traced the wires to see exactly where they are spliced.

The only thing I can figure is that the backfeed just doesn't have the current available to power the DUI module once the key is off when hooked direct from the old coil wire to the DUI module.

EDIT: May have answered my own question. I found a wiring diagram on here that shows a 15ohm resistor in line with the excite (brown) wire. The voltage drop across that resistor would be enough to rob the DUI of the power it needs to run in the backfeed condition. However, in the relay scenario, the backfeed may still have had enough current to keep the relay latched even with the voltage dropped across the resistor with the key off, giving the DUI all the juice it needs direct from the battery to keep on firing.

I'll wire in the relay again with the diode this time and see if that fixes it. I'm pretty confident that's the issue. Good job Hammer.

 

[ClarkWGris]

Frustrated with tach

Recently bought an 85' Renegade and we have successfully installed the HEI distributor with the relay as laid out by JeepHammer.

The only way we were able to get it to run was disconnecting the two wires going into the tach and connecting them together.

I have an OEM reproduction tach that I would like to get to work with the HEI but a little confused reading through all the info out there.

Has anyone successfully connected an OEM tach to an HEI distriutor running the relay?

If so what wires are you connecting the tach to inline in order for one the engine to run and secondly to have the tach work correctly.

Thanks for the help and love all the info out here on working on these beasts.

 

[yohan1979]

Just added a tach to my DUI setup as well. This is the wiring diagram supplied. I used the tach output from the dizzy and sourced new keyed power and ground.

 

[Matt1981CJ7]

Just added a tach to my DUI setup as well. This is the wiring diagram supplied. I used the tach output from the dizzy and sourced new keyed power and ground.

That's a aftermarket tach. The factory tachs are engine specific, meaning there was a different tach for 4, 6, and 8 cylinder engines. And they are a current triggered tach wired in-series with the ignition system. Yours isn't.

Unfortunately, I can't answer Clark's question as I've never messed with a HEI system on a Jeep. Sorry.

Matt

 

[ClarkWGris]

That is the setup for the tach I have as well.

So you ran a direct wire from the tach output on the HEI to the Green on the tach?
Where did you pull keyed power from?

Thanks for your help.

 

[yohan1979]

Matt - "OEM Reproduction" = aftermarket, unless AMC fired up production after 30 years off

I pulled keyed power from one of my under dash wires off the fuse block. The tach doesn't really care where the 12v signal comes from so long as the tach signal is direct.

 

[ClarkWGris]

I am starting to think it may be the connection coming off the tach side of the HEI, if I hook the volt meter up to the green wire coming out of the HEI I should be seeing 12v correct?

 

[yohan1979]

That's sort of tricky and the answer is dependent on the type of meter you are using. The signal coming from the tach is a square wave, frequency changes with engine rpm and a digital meter may or may not read 12. You could try a test light and see if you're getting a flash that increases with rpm.
But...I'm not sure what green wire you are referencing off the HEI. Is that a wire you attached to the tach port of your dizzy?