Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner
161 - 180 of 211 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
Reminds me of the movie scene with Steve Martin, when his name/number was printed in the phone book......"I'm somebody now" :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mongo228

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #162 ·
Ok, time for some updating ...

So, this is my bad, but I didn't check rocker geometry when I put the non-adjustable Scorpion roller-rockers in. I was thinking the lifters getting pumped up would take up any slack.

Nope.

The poor thing clattered like a diesel! So, while he's down for axle work, I decided to sort the pushrod/rocker issue.

Stock pushrods for a 1980 258 are 9.622". I had used a feeler gauge under the roller, and came up with about .060" of play, +/-. A lot! So, I got a pushrod checker. I also ordered two sets of rods ... 9.652" and 9.682". After all was said and done, the 9.682" rods are the proper length.

Per Scorpion instructions (which I printed out this time), from zero lash to full torque (18-20 lbs) should be between 1/2 and 1 full turn of the bolt. The 9.682" are sitting at 2/3-3/4 of a turn. Basically, they're in the "Goldilocks" zone.

Outside of coming right off the factory line, everyone's engine will be slightly different, but the stock rods/rockers will work unless there are drastic changes (like a new cam, roller rockers, etc.). Hopefully, this information proves useful to someone in the future.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #163 ·
Ok, the new rods are all in. I dummy-cranked the engine for about 5 seconds or so and didn't hear any banging.

There is now no slop in the rockers.

In all honesty, I'm impressed it ran at all, let alone as well as it did. That just reinforces why I like straight 6s. Forgiving, enduring.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a stonkin' V8. Gets my blood pumping hearing one howling its way to 7 grand! Talk about "the song of my people ... "!!

But, when it comes to Jeeps, I love the I6. It's not meant to shriek at redline. It's meant to happily chug along at 1600-2000, going for forever and a day.

So, gonna let the RTV under the valve cover set up for a day or so. New axles should be here Friday, 10 Dec. With any luck, I'll have my boy back on the road by Friday evening.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #164 · (Edited)
Ok, started him up tonight. Had to swap out thermostats; the old one was sticking, badly. Poor beast ran hot again, but I shut him down quick-like.

Here's a link to the video of him running. I can't decide if the "whoosh" is the injectors running overtime, or what. The more I listen, the more I think it's NOT air intake. The sound doesn't change with throttle input.

Here's the link to the video I shot. I need to re-edit the popup text.

Anyone got any ideas?

EDIT: Updated video.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #165 ·
I called Howell and talked to Troy. I told him what was going on after doing the rebuild with the upgraded pushrods/rockers. He said the sound was the IAC motor. He also mentioned checking fuel pressure, checking the pickup in the dizzie, and perhaps disconnecting the factory tach.

I brought up the fact that everything worked as intended before the rebuild, and the only things no longer stock were the pushrods/rockers. He reiterated checking the pickup in the dizzie and fuel pressure. So, I will be working on that today.

My new axles came in yesterday, and I was working on them until 10 last night. They're all installed, and the diff refilled. New brake shoes/drums. I was working on adjusting the brakes last night but knocked off to actually eat something.

I know, who needs food when you have wrenches to turn?!? :LOL:

I'm thinking I should have him ready for a shakedown run this afternoon.

Fingers crossed!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
If that's the IAC valve, that's problematic. My '97 Ram ate 3 of those in the latter 8 years I owned it (total of 15), and it ran like crap when they gave up (wouldn't close after warm-up, and had issues idling). Even though I'm looking forward to EFI on both the Mustang and the Jeep, give me a thermo-coil & butterfly choke any day of the week.

Good luck - SO close!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
I think I brought the old Solex carb home after we changed it for the 2100 on Gramps over at Daves place!
Sure it did not crawl back and perch on Klooge intake? Same symptoms I had when it was on Gramps. No power when cold and fall when you gave it gas. :)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mongo228

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #168 ·
So. I'm stumped.

The previous video showed the TBI with a loud "whoosh" or "shriek". I pulled the plug (unhooked battery) and did a reset. This is the result.

Idles just fine, even revs pretty freely.
When cold, stumbles/pops under throttle.
When warm, has no real power under throttle.

Fuel pressure: 11.5-12 PSI
Manifold Vacuum: 16 PSI
Ported Vacuum: 12 PSI

NO codes stored in memory, and no CEL coming on.

The only things that have changed mechanically on the engine from the rebuild:
  • Scorpion Roller Rockers, 1.7:1 (stock is 1.6:1)
  • Melling MPR 317 pushrods @ 9.682" (stock is 9.622", too short for the rockers)
  • Engine bored .020" over

I have a Melling SRC6 camshaft, 259/259, so new valve lift is .405" vs. stock .381".

Logically, this thing should be even MORE motivated than it was before the rebuild.

I'm almost tempted to get a MC 2100 to throw on as a comparison.

I'm going to email Howell. I'm also going to get an OBD 1 to USB adapter so I can plug in my laptop.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #169 ·
Ok, insomnia and aches from the blasted booster shot have kept me awake, so I've been researching stuff. A common theme in situations like mine seems to be potential catalytic converter failure.

I've been trying to find the link where I read that cats can fail during engine break-in (the first 20 minutes at 2500 RPM w/o actually moving, and the heat from air pockets in the cooling system).

I am wondering if my cat has cooked? I know the exhaust was HOT. Not only did it roast the rubber in the hanger, it discolored the steel at the turn-down, which had about 150 miles on it, and was still silver. Now it's blue-gray.

./sigh ... I'm getting tired of dealing with the exhaust. This is what I get for being ambitious and welding everything in.

So ... for shiggles, I'll cut the cat out of the system tomorrow, and just put in straight pipe, using clamps (if I can get them). It's insured as a "collector" vehicle, so I don't have emissions to worry about.

Of course, if I feel wretched when I wake up, nothing's gonna get done.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #170 ·
First, insomnia (insert expletive of choice) sucks.

Second, my arm hurts like hell.

Third, I have a splitting headache.

Fourth, in an effort to concentrate on something other than feeling miserable and pissed off I can't sleep, I cut the cat out of the Jeep.

Fifth, I could still see through the cat, so not clogged.

Sixth, this leads me back to a fuel supply issue. But, one would think that if there was a problem with fuel delivery, the system would throw a CEL.

Timing is set at 8* BTDC. Plugs are gapped to .045. Obviously, there's spark, or it wouldn't run. There's plenty of air, too.

So why does it cough/sputter/pop under load when cold, and not have power under load at any time?


🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
Hmmmmmm.........vac leak?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mongo228

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #172 ·
So, in my trawling through the interwebs, I ran across a Chevy CK forum with a lengthy, but useful, post.

It was about "valve overlap". Long story short, using higher lift rockers with a stock cam creates more "both valves open" overlap. That has the effect of unburned air-fuel mixture entering the exhaust, causing the popping/backfiring. It will also cause a loss of power under load, though it will idle just fine, may even rev fine in neutral, but load it up? Yeah.

This is one of those things where the "cam voodoo" bit me. I should have thought of that, but didn't. I swapped out the rollers for the stockers. I'm getting pretty good at that. Only took 90 minutes or so, start to finish. That includes prying off the valve cover (see previous posts as to why), doing the swap, then putting the cover back on after cleaning it up and re-applying RTV.

Started him up, and he was already running better. Took a minute for the ECM to re-learn the profile, but once that was done, ran like a top!

Took him out ... still dragging. Literally. I could feel he want to GO when I put my foot in it, but there was something dragging. I'm wondering if my axles are too tight? When I seated the seals, they were deep. The bearing races were JUST flush with the flange. I put the stock shims in, but I am finding out they do not measure out to the minimum .020" out the axles call for. So, I'm going to order new shims.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #173 ·
Ok, I'm a *******. I misunderstood the installation instructions and measure incorrectly.

Watched a couple of videos, got sorted, and worked on the pax axle. It now rotates more freely.

I did order some .010 shims, so I'll make use of them when they come in on (supposedly) Tuesday.

Yep. Feeling pretty stupid right about now.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #174 ·
Well. I got the axle load settled, BUT ... the brakes did, indeed, turn out to be aproblem.

The brake shoes I got from O'Reilly's were too big. The metal substrate plate to which the shoes are bonded was too wide. It was literally carving into the drum on each side. So, to get the drums off the shoe plates, I put 1/8" thick 1/2" washers on the studs under the drums. There was still enough for the drums to fit on the center flange. Now, the axels spin freely.

He still has no power, and I have to have my foot in it just to do 65 on the highway.

I checked the fuel return line to see if it was clogged/restricted, but I could blow through it to the tank.

Vacuum lines are all in good shape.

This is kinda pointing at the MAP sensor now, not responding properly to changes in manifold vacuum, or a fuel pump that can't provide enough fuel, though it reads pretty steady. I have ordered a new fuel pump, as well an OBD 1 to USB so I can hook in my laptop and get a good read on WHAT is going on in my engine.

Still no CEL.

We'll see wat happens next.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #175 ·
Today is a good day.

I think I finally figured out what the problem was, and it was partially of my own making.

Even though I did NOT pull the carrier to do the rear locker install, I did pull the bearing caps in preparation to pull the carrier. When I put them back (exactly as they came off, side/orientation/bolts), I over-torqued them. I used the wrong specs, so torqued them to 75 vs. 65. That 10 extra pounds of torque was enough to kill ALL of the backlash in the R&P. There's supposed to be .006-.010" backlash. There was NONE. While there's no load, turning by hand, things will spin freely. Start adding load and higher RPM, and you get "binding" resistance.

I pulled the carrier, and have ordered a bearing/shim kit. Should be here next week.

Speaking of shims, there were modified .10" shims used, one per side. Modified by slight grinding to fit, I think. I took some calipers to them when I saw/felt the rough side from grinding. .098/.097 were the measurements.

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Light Bicycle part


I mentioned in one of my earlier videos that the CJ had been through "flood" conditions. You could see the water line on the front axle. I'm thinking that at some point, water got in and worked its evil on the pax side race.

Automotive tire Light Tire Font Rim


Both races have similar discoloration.

So, next week, once the bearing/shim kit comes in, I get to have fun re-setting the R&P gears. The R&P themselves are, miraculously, undamaged.

Wish me luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister4x4

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #176 ·
Well, I know now that my Jeep really does not like HEI. I tried it again, and the beast coughed, sputtered, ran rough, and just generally didn't cooperate. So, I wired the Duraspark back in. While doing so, I broke the starter solenoid. I heard a "tick," then the I post just started spinning. Did the same to the S post. Figured things were broken inside, but just to be sure, I hit the key. Nothing. Not even a little click.

Got a new solenoid from O'Reilly's, installed it, and tried the key. He started right up!

Then it was time to address the temp sensor for the Speedhut speedometer. I'm pretty sure something got roached in there; it would barely register at full operating temp. A replacement sensor was nearly $30, plus tax, plus S&H. Picked up an Equus temp sender kit for $26. It works!

Now, just need shims!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister4x4

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #177 ·
Poopstick.

Re-did the rear diff, got a good pattern, but backlash is out of spec (.012-ish). Still, got him on the road ... same issue.

I basically have two options:

Pull trans/case, do a refresh (got the trans rebuild kit).
Do a swap back to carb to make sure the EFI isn't the problem.

TBH, I have not been thoroughly thrilled with the EFI. It's been finicky, and even though it's not throwing a code, I can tell it's running rich by both soot-blackened plugs and the smell at the tailpipe. Before I to the carb swap, I'm going to pull the O2 sensor and give it a thorough cleaning.

I will find the problem. I will fix the problem.

My Jeep will run properly again.

I have spoken.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister4x4

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,003 Posts
Poopstick.

Re-did the rear diff, got a good pattern, but backlash is out of spec (.012-ish). Still, got him on the road ... same issue.

I basically have two options:

Pull trans/case, do a refresh (got the trans rebuild kit).
Do a swap back to carb to make sure the EFI isn't the problem.

TBH, I have not been thoroughly thrilled with the EFI. It's been finicky, and even though it's not throwing a code, I can tell it's running rich by both soot-blackened plugs and the smell at the tailpipe. Before I to the carb swap, I'm going to pull the O2 sensor and give it a thorough cleaning.

I will find the problem. I will fix the problem.

My Jeep will run properly again.

I have spoken.
:)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
264 Posts
Discussion Starter · #179 ·
Qapla'!

Any nerd worth the title will know what that means. Others, Google is your friend.

Thanks to devildog80's help, I am now many steps closer to getting Klooge back on the road.

The drive train has been fully reassembled. New parts went where they were needed (new front input shaft seal, new yoke, new u-joint u-bolts, new carb).

I got Klooge started, and he basically fired right up with the MC 2150 (I ordered a 2100, got a 2150 ... meh, no big whoop). There are, however, two problems:

  • he idles at about 2100 RPM or so
  • the carb leaks at the inlet fitting (my fault ... "gorilla torque")

The leak is an easy fix, really. Just need a 24 thread count tap of the right size, et voila, ca c'est bon!

I need a crash course in MC 2150 idle adjustment. Gotta get that high idle down to something more reasonable, like maybe 1100? At least until the choke warms up. More hours spent trolling YouTube are in my future, I think.

We're getting there, that cantankerous old prick and I!

tlhIngan maH. taHjaj.

PS - yeah, I'm in a weird mood ... I'll blame it on meds and varied petroleum products.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mister4x4

·
Registered
Joined
·
495 Posts
Grats!

I'd start with the booklet that came with it (RTFM, LOL!). When we dropped the Edelbrock 1406 onto Frank, Jim started 'fiddlin' with it,' like he'd always done, and when he got it where he wanted it, it ran well enough, but still puffed a little black smoke when I goosed it and stumbled a tiny bit immediately off idle. I spent about 20 minutes reading the 'initial set-up' section, and wound up bumping up the idle to 850 (from 600-ish, where he had it), opened the air needles at the base about a half-turn each, and moved my timing vac from port to manifold. Well... you know how well it does now. Even got a "Holy ****!" out of Jim for that one. We talked about the air needles, and he admitted he thought they worked backward to what they do (so did I, until I read it, TBH). Learning occurred that day. LOL!
 
161 - 180 of 211 Posts
Top