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Thread: Recommended Repair Procedure for P3497 (Cylinder Deactivation System - Bank 2) ? Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-17-2021 03:27 PM
nwoods I could do all that you described, but frankly, its not worth the money in parts for me to do it. I'd rather sell this one and start over. I only bought this truck BECAUSE it had a rebuilt motor. If I have to rebuild it, I've saved nothing, and paid more than I should have. I like project vehicles, and don't mind wrenching, but I don't have cash for parts.
06-17-2021 12:52 PM
90grandoneer OK, "Houston, we may have a problem." Are you fairly well mechanically inclined? It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp of most of this stuff. The first thing I'd do is check to make sure your Innova scanner can read all of the electronic modules on your vehicle. There are over 20 of them. Then reset the PCM/TCM and see if that makes any difference. Do you know if the vehicle has been a California vehicle all its life? The reason I ask is because of the amount of corrosion around the O2's. California cars are usually pretty clean underneath, unless it's been heavily off roaded and not maintained properly.

Regarding your post and pictures above:
---How many miles are on the vehicle? The O2's look to me to be the originals which are NTK's, Chrysler's OE ones at the time. They have the same type of numbers on the barrel....the first 5 being the same as on mine, and similar numbers on the wrenching portion. If the vehicle has more than 100K on it, I'd recommend changing both upstream and both downstream sensors. I've had one go bad with as little as about 60K on it. When they fail, they generally go bias to the rich side. This could be causing your fuel trims to be out of whack.
---Within about the next 300-700 miles, I'd recommend you change the oil using a good synthetic oil and high quality oil filter.
---The oil pressure sensor is down by the oil filter and you'd have to put a "T" in to hook a direct reading gauge on it. You may want to wait on this for now.
---If they only spent about $1750 on this rebuild, chances are very high that they did not replace the valve lifters or the cam. New OEM lifters alone run about $400-500, a complete gasket kit is around $200-300 and an OEM water pump around $100 or so. If the lifters are the originals, therein could lie at least one problem, especially if they didn't reinstall the lifters in the same bores they came out of, and if the rollers are now rotating in the opposite direction that they've been rotating for the last 155,000 miles. Also, be aware the the valve lifters are the last things in the oil circuitry to receive oil and it is fed to the lifters down through the pushrods and by splash from the crankshaft.
---It appears they did have the block out and hopefully cleaned it properly and cleaned all the passages out. I don't see how they could have replaced, pistons, rings, bearings, had the crank ground (which it probably didn't need), do a valve job (I paid about $600), etc. for $1750.

Since you really have a few problems here, I think this is what I'd do. First, I'd replace the MAP Sensor and verify wiring from the PCM to the MDS solenoids is in good order. You'll have to remove the manifold and then it'll be easy to change the MAP Sensor too. Then I'd change all of the O2 Sensors (about $200 for all 4). This is a PITA, and could be done IF you have to pull the heads to get to the lifters for some reason. Do your oil change and see if anything gets better. Check the fuel trims and see if that problem is resolved. Then, clear codes and see what comes back after driving it a bit. The good news (if there is any) is that, if it is a cam/lifter problem causing the MDS issue, you won't have to pull the engine.....just the heads. If you do that, then you can do the valve seats if you choose.

Is it possible for you to find out exactly what was replaced.....perhaps talk to the guy that did the work.
06-16-2021 04:48 PM
nwoods Answers to the best of my (limited) ability:
---First, can you tell whether or not the MDS is working at all?
Honestly, no. I don't have enough seat time in the vehicle to really be sure.

---Have you checked for upstream exhaust leaks on Bank No. 2? Actually, check both banks just for giggles.
No leaks that I can hear

---Have the O2 Sensors ever been replaced? If so, what brand was used?
They are NOT new, and I can't see a brand name. See photos

---Have you checked the plugs at the PCM/TCM to insure they're properly plugged in and no corrosion or "pulled" pins?
Yes, and all appear okay and seated properly

---Are you sure the correct weight oil is in the engine?
I was told they put in what it says on the cap (5W-20)

---Is it fossil or synthetic oil?
I have no idea

---When was it last changed or has it been since engine rebuild?
Only 1300 miles or so since the rebuild, it has not been changed since the rebuild

---Have you put an oil pressure gauge on it to verify proper oil pressure at RPM?
No, and don't have a way to do so


---Do you know if they installed new lifters, or are they the originals?
Not sure, I know from past experience in a WJ with the 4.7 that the rocker arms pop off when the lifters fail after 100,000 miles or so. For $1750, I am hopeful they replaced them. Here is all that I know:
"Reman Dodge 5.7 Engine with Machined Crankshaft, Valve Job + New Bearings, Gaskets + New Water Pump + New Rings, Customer supplying core for Long Block" Service cost was $1,750. One year warranty on all purchased parts only, no labor included. Customer responsible for valve adjustments and timing set."

---Did your STFT ever get down to plus or minus 5%?
I don't know. I will need to run this again.

---Did you ever replace the MAP Sensor? As said somewhere above, the key fuel management sensors are the MAP, O2's and the IAT sensors. If any are farbled up, you'll get erroneous or false fuel trim readings, because the PCM is just responding to those inputs.
No, did not replace, but I did remove and clean and reinstall. All codes went away after cleaning this, so I don't suspect this is part of the problem in this instance

--- did they actually pull the engine COMPLETELY apart or did they just do the absolute minimum and re-ring it, etc, without cleaning all the passages and so on? You can look under the vehicle and see if the block is clean.
Of course I don't know, but the block is immaculate and freshly painted a glossy black enamel, and the heads are shiny clean aluminum. Also the oil pan is super clean aluminum.

---Also, since yours is an 06 like mine, did they replace the valve seats while it was apart?
No way to know, other than the heads look they came fresh out of a machine shop
06-13-2021 02:34 PM
90grandoneer
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtec View Post
P3497-MDS RATIONALITY BANK 2
• Set Condition:
O2 sensor readings on Bank 2 side indicate a lean condition while in 4 cylinder mode.

Possible Causes
INSUFFICIENT OIL PRESSURE ACTING ON THE LIFTER LOCKING PINS
OIL PASSAGES RESTRICTED
LIFTER
MDS SOLENOID
OK, let's go back to the basics on this and start with jtec's post no. 2. Also, be aware that I haven't completely read and studied the 3 or so previous pages, but kind of have the gist of what's been going on. With this in mind, some of the below bullets may have already been addressed. If so, my apologies.

---First, can you tell whether or not the MDS is working at all? If one or two cylinders or not fully entering/exiting MDS, it'll run very ragged......something I believe you've alluded to previously.
---Have you checked for upstream exhaust leaks on Bank No. 2? Actually, check both banks just for giggles.
---Have the O2 Sensors ever been replaced? If so, what brand was used?
---Have you checked the plugs at the PCM/TCM to insure they're properly plugged in and no corrosion or "pulled" pins?
---Are you sure the correct weight oil is in the engine? Is it fossil or synthetic oil? When was it last changed or has it been since engine rebuild?
---Have you put an oil pressure gauge on it to verify proper oil pressure at RPM?
---Do you know if they installed new lifters, or are they the originals?
---Did your STFT ever get down to plus or minus 5%?
---Did you ever replace the MAP Sensor? As said somewhere above, the key fuel management sensors are the MAP, O2's and the IAT sensors. If any are farbled up, you'll get erroneous or false fuel trim readings, because the PCM is just responding to those inputs.

Lastly, if all the above check out and the problem still persists, it may be time to pull the intake manifold and have a look, first at the wiring between the PCM and the MDS Solenoids on that cylinder bank (No's 4 and 6), and then the solenoids themselves. "Ringing out" the wires on these is kind of a PITA but taking one's time makes it a little easier. Before pulling the intake manifold though, do a thorough check of the wiring harness(s) coming off the PCM and going to the engine, especially the ones that go the the MDS solenoids that go under the back of the intake manifold. Any chaffed, broken, or pinched wires should be repaired. If nothing is found, then pull the manifold.

I am sure you'll figure this out and, once you've got all the bugs out of it and the maintenance all current, you should have a pretty reliable ride. In the almost 12 years that I've owned mine, I've never had any serious issues other than fair wear and tear stuff, EXCEPT one or two "self-inflicted" problems. IMO, staying ahead of everything is the key.

Good luck and happy hunting.

As a couple side notes, if the shop that did the work didn't properly clean some of the components (i.e. the throttle body), did they actually pull the engine COMPLETELY apart or did they just do the absolute minimum and re-ring it, etc, without cleaning all the passages and so on? You can look under the vehicle and see if the block is clean. Also, since yours is an 06 like mine, did they replace the valve seats while it was apart?
06-13-2021 11:34 AM
nwoods Argh! It’s back!

The P3497 code is back. Engine running fine, but CEL is on and staring at me defiantly, taunting me.

So far, not very impressed with this truck. Way too fragile. I can’t trust it or rely on it.
05-16-2021 11:21 AM
nwoods Rick, thanks for your comments regarding the exhaust set up. And yes, completely agree that a cold air intake is not in my best interest as this rig will see a lot of dirt. In fact, that will be its primary use. I have boxes of bits ready to throw at the suspension, but have been having a heck of a time getting front OME struts. I am on my fourth attempt now. Shops say they have it in inventory...right up until it’s day to ship them. Seems there is a national shortage of ARB parts. I actually received one strut in the mail last week. Novak’s source said they had three, but could only find one when it came time to ship to me. Lol, can’t quite figure out what one strut will do for me. Rumor has it my fourth order will come on Thursday. Fingers crossed!
05-15-2021 08:10 PM
Rick_H Glad to hear it sounds like you've got a fix! It may take a while, but your long-term fuel trim should settle to less than about +/- 5% and be stable (the closer to 0 the better, that's the ideal), and your short term fuel trims will bounce around a little with changing conditions, but should stay under +/- 10%, and again, the closer to zero the better. But STFT will not be stable like LTFT should be at steady engine load.


I've got a Gibson 3" stainless cat-back exhaust on mine, it's been on there for at least 12 years now, and I really love the exhaust note and the polished 4" stainless tip which just peeks out from under the rear bumper. It doesn't sound odd when the MDS kicks in, which I've seen complaints of with some cat-back systems. I've also got an AirRaid intake on mine, which surprised me by how much it improved the exhaust note, as well. But if you're going to spend much time off road or on dirt, I'd stick to the factory airbox with a good filter. The CAIs improve performance and exhaust note noticeably, but they only keep the big chunks out of the intake air and not the super fine trail dust.
05-14-2021 06:30 AM
SKALA308 Fantastic, well done for persevering.
05-13-2021 05:24 PM
nwoods Here is what the OBDII scanner showed after about 20 mile drive
05-13-2021 05:23 PM
nwoods It's Fixed!!??

Possibly falling under the category of "too good to be true", I might have fixed it!
Today I removed the Throttle Body again, and this time I cleaned the Air Inlet Temperature sensor in the air plenum, I wiped down the throttle body butterfly plate again, and then using a small stick and t-shirt rag, wiped down the MAP sensor while it was still installed (its way on the back of the intake), through the front of the intake manifold. I tried to remove the MAP sensor, but I can't get my hand on it behind the engine and under the cowl. I contemplated removing the entire intake manifold to get to it, but I was able to clean it from the front inlet. I tested and snugged every connector I could find, including all the injectors, and found a broken connector on what I think is the camshaft sensor....its right below the throttle body, and screws into the block. I sprayed that connector with dielectric cleaner and reseated it, reassembled everything, and then reconnected the battery. I did the backyard ETB Re-Learn process (pumping the gas pedal three times) and after a very short rough start (only 1 or 2 seconds), it was running nice and smooth and the CEL went out.

I plugged in my scan tool and everything looked good, my STFT reading was 28 (down from 32) and when I rev'ved it up, it dropped way down to -1.4. I have read that it the voltage drops when you rev it up, so that seemed good.

I took it out for a drive and it felt and sounded great. Running perfectly. I was able to activate the MDS system on the freeway (60+ mph, trailing throttle, downhill). I did a few hard acceleration pulls and it just smiled and went. I drove it home and still no codes, not even pending codes!

Lessons Learned:
1. Install a Catch can
2. Keep up with the air intake cleanliness & maintenance
3. Download (and read) the FSM (done!)
4. These engines are extremely sensitive and require a good understanding of how all the sensors interrelate
5. JeepForum has awesomely helpful people on it
6. JeepForum has anxiety issues and bans references to all other forums
7. There are other forums!
8. This HEMI needs an aftermarket exhaust to sound better


Best of all, I didn't have to throw money at it!
05-08-2021 06:08 AM
SKALA308 I once cleaned TB of my first Jeep GC, a 3.7V6. Sprayed carb cleaner and then battled for days to get TB to work correctly. Even after one year, every now and then got a hick up.

And the quick TB relearn Grandoneer explained above, works for sure.
05-07-2021 05:36 PM
90grandoneer Here's the throttle body relearn procedure:

From the Factory Service Manual:

5.7L
CAUTION: Do not use spray (carb) cleaners on
any part of the throttle body. Do not apply silicone
lubricants to any part of the throttle body.
1. Clean and check condition of throttle body-to-intake
manifold o-ring (2).
2. Clean mating surfaces of throttle body and intake
manifold.
3. Install throttle body to intake manifold by positioning
throttle body to manifold alignment pins.
4. Install 4 mounting bolts (2) (Refer to 14 - FUEL
SYSTEM/FUEL DELIVERY - SPECIFICATIONS) .
5. Install electrical connector (3).
6. Install air plenum.
7. A Scan Tool may be used to learn electrical parameters.
Go to the Miscellaneous menu, and then
select ETC Learn.
8. If the previous step is not performed, a Diagnostic
Trouble Code (DTC) will be set.
9. If necessary, use a scan tool to erase any Diagnostic
Trouble Codes (DTC’s) from PCM.

If you don't have access to a good scanner, there is an alternate way of doing the relearn. Below is the procedure that came with my BBK throttle body:

1.Disconnect battery for 5 minutes. Reconnect, or use a code reader to clear any stored codes in the computer. NOTE: If this is a new install, proceed to Step 2.
2. Turn ignition key to on position, do not start the engine.
3. Slowly depress the gas pedal to the floor, then slowly release it. Do this three (3) times. Turn key off.
4. Now start engine. The gas pedal is now in synch with the larger throttle body.

It should be noted, that before I bought my high end scanner and used this procedure, it took several tries to get everything to work properly. If you can't get everything set up correctly and your issues persist, you may have damaged the throttle body and will require a replacement.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
05-07-2021 02:48 PM
Rick_H Here is a possibly relevant thread on another forum, I hope it’s ok to post a link:

https://www.**********.org/threads/h...e-body.172834/

Well, apparently that forum URL is censored here. Hmm, that’s disappointing. The title of the thread is “Hemi throttle body”. You might try to search it up, the next time you’re working on your Jeep out in the garage.
05-07-2021 11:55 AM
90grandoneer Oops, sorry, I thought this thread started out to be MDS related. Below are the MDS "relearns" on my two 5.7's. The relearns that Rick_H is talking about below for the Throttle Body are clearly spelled out in the FCM. I'll add this info. that I spelled out on the "other" forum in a post below.

I don't know of any "relearn" on the 06's. My 06 starts working properly immediately after clearing codes, disconnecting battery, etc. My 05, on the other hand, relearns by itself in about 10 miles or so. I've found, with it, that if I drive it normal for about 5 or so miles and then stomp on it a few times, it'll start working properly sooner than if I drive it nice for the 10 miles or so.
05-07-2021 05:06 AM
jtec right now is the ETC light on?

what brand and model is this scanner?

I think I may be wrong I will look - the dodge 5.7L gear heads have a DIY relearn I will research if only for my own info.. something like key on wait X seconds (self calibrate) then hold throttle WOT, wave a chicken clockwise over head fro Xseconds key off and done.
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