|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|12-08-2019 05:22 PM|
|Scoutmapper||I think earlier tests were not good at relay fuse 2 because I messed up...the battery negative was not tight. Sorry to lead you the wrong route. I put things back together more so tests are more accurate. I had things hanging everywhere...so I cleaned up to keep better track of things.|
|12-08-2019 01:53 PM|
You said you have no voltage at relay c1 which you need & already just said you had power (voltage) from fuse 2 to c1 but now appears not to have voltage. So not sure what is happening at relay c1. As for relay c2 it will not have power.
OK, switch to cluster at c2 pin 6 (timer) is grounded, good.
This part of the circuit is separate from the fuse 2 to glass. You should have the relay in (& need 12v power to relay c1) but can test without it but in the end you want to see the indicator come on & power the glass & the relay needs to be in for that.
You need to continue testing for ground since the timer needs to ground the c2 relay terminal to trip (& hold) the relay closed. That will then connect fuse 2 power to the glass & switch indicator. If the timer is not grounding cluster connector c2 pin 7 after hitting the switch (key on) the timer is bad & will not trip the relay.
So you are checking for grounding all the way from switch to relay (c2).
|12-08-2019 01:01 PM|
I have power from fuse 2 to the relay socket, C1. So that is good.
Battery is low, its been sitting for 2 months. I did put it on a charger but not the last 2 weeks. This is probably the issue on voltage.
As for next steps it sounds like I should be testing the relay triggering. From you post #34 you said:
|12-08-2019 11:49 AM|
I should have added that if you are only getting close to 10v to the glass your battery may be low & not actually have 12v+. Check that & charge it if necessary. If your battery has 12v but only about 10v at the glass there might be something else happening in that circuit. The element in the glass does have a pretty heavy draw on the battery especially if the engine is not running to keep the battery charged.
|12-08-2019 11:40 AM|
OK so that part of the circuit is good which we thought it was. Progress…
Remember that with the relay out & socket jumped we have the switch out of the circuit except for the indicator (& illumination from the orange wire).
You can start testing the relay triggering which is through the cluster timer but that will only get you so far until you get fuse 2 power to the relay socket so you can put the relay in.
You really should address that first. That way with the relay in place & powered from fuse 2, as you test the triggering circuit it will be easy to see if the relay trips (the switch indicator will light). To me that is easier than having to check the c2 terminal at the relay socket at each step of testing the timer circuit.
If not you can still test for power to relay c2 which is switch-to-timer-to-relay but of course still not get the switch to power the glass & indicator without the relay in & power from fuse 2.
|12-08-2019 11:10 AM|
Alright. So far so good. I put a jumper on relay C3 directly to the battery this time and noticed the indicator light switch was lit for the defogger switch. I know I have done this before but I think the bulb was not seated well. The little plastic holder is so soft it was not holding in place. I managed to get this properly seated.
Toggling the switch didn't change the light...it stayed on during this test. I tested the glass and it has voltage...not quite 12 but 10 or so.
Does the lack of function on the switch change anything or should I move on to testing the relay triggering and fuse? If so, I am not quite sure how to go about this part.
I just also tested the ground on the cluster and it is good when holding down the switch.
your next step was "...plug the cluster connector in & with the key on hit the switch & see if the wire from the cluster to the relay is grounded." Should I have the jumper from the battery + to the C3 relay still on for this? I guess that doesn't much matter because I tested it that way and without B+ on. neither showed any voltage when holding down the switch.
|12-01-2019 09:49 PM|
Yes, and check if you are getting 12v to the back glass or even to the connector at the back. It yes, then you only need to check from where you spliced into the wire from the relay to glass going over to the switch.
Also, you do not need the key on for this since you are putting 12v from the battery into the circuit.
|12-01-2019 09:31 PM|
So far I have this:
I will keep you posted. It might be a few days.
|12-01-2019 08:31 PM|
From everything you have said & done you appear to have 2 problems. The switch not triggering the relay & no 12v power to the switch indicator & apparently not to the back glass either.
The first is to address the no 12v power. As explained earlier, you need 12v to the relay socket & then by jumping the relay you need 12v power to the switch indicator & also to the back glass. Without this you really don’t need to address triggering the relay (yet).
After you get that sorted out & working you can effectively address triggering the relay. The timer is in the cluster. The switch sends a momentary ground signal (only grounded when the switch is pushed down-no ground when released & comes back up) to the cluster timer. The timer then (is supposed to) send a continuous ground signal to the relay which keeps it closed (triggered) until the timer times out & releases the ground which causes the relay to open. If the timer is bad the ground signal is not sent to the relay & no power is sent to the indicator/back glass.
What to do?
You need 12v from fuse 2 to relay c1. If you do not have that, jump 12v directly from battery (+) to relay c3 (test the jumper to verify you have 12v) to temporarily test the rest of the wiring. If that does not get power to indicator/back glass you need to check your wiring from relay c3 onward. If you do get power as needed you are good so far. Then you will have to address the lack of power to/from the fuse & to the relay if that is lacking.
Once you get that sorted out you can deal with triggering the relay. You need to verify the cluster wire from the switch is grounded at the cluster when you hold the switch down. If good plug the cluster connector in & with the key on hit the switch & see if the wire from the cluster to the relay is grounded. If yes, the timer is working then verify that wire is grounded at the relay (c2). Also verify you have 12v at relay c4 with key on. If both are good put the relay in & it should click closed when you hit the switch. Hit it again & it should open turning off power to the glass.
|12-01-2019 06:03 PM|
|Scoutmapper||Well I got further but seem to be settled on defeat for now. I tested everything as mentioned, connections in the PDC seem to all work but still no indicator lamp. I pulled and tested the lamp/bulb in the switch and it works. I even went through the troubleshooting section of the FSM...made it to step 11 when it said the Cluster needed replaced. I stopped there. That step had me jump two wires at the switch harness with ignition in the run position...the relay should be clicking but was not. The only thing I can think of, besides the cluster being bad, is my 2 wires into the cluster connection have problems but they have continuity correctly. This takes me back to you comment in post #20 "Most of the time this is where problems come up. Assuming you have switch-to-cluster & cluster-to-relay wired correctly if you are not getting the relay grounded the timer may be bad." Where is the timer? Is that in the cluster?|
|11-22-2019 07:23 PM|
Man you are awesome for helping me so much. I cant thank you enough.
What i am thinking right now is either I was not pulling power from battery when trying the jumper from B+ to C3 on the relay, like you said. I will put the multimeter on my jumper when I try again. I feel better about this now knowing that with your experience all models had the wires in the PDC already...that was messing with me.
I have high confidence that I have the wiring all straight now. The early model wiring kit I am using has BK/WT from the hardtop (pin 1) that goes to a fuse (inline or #15 which is what i did...see below), and one from the washer pump to a splice where it splits to the hardtop (pin 6) and then off as a BK wire to ground. Then there are BK/WT wires on the switches, one from the defogger switch (pin 3) and two for the wiper switch (pin 1 and pin 5)...it was insane to have all of these as BK/WT wire colors. I checked them all for continuity and all are straight.
I am with you on post #16. This is what I have but instead of soldering an inline fuse I a put my wires into slot 15 of the fuse block and put a 10A fuse in there...like you said it does the same thing so we should be good there and a continuity test seems good.
I will be back on this next weekend to check things again.
|11-22-2019 06:05 PM|
Are you sure you are jumping from the battery (+) post. If yes, verify the jumper has 12v before inserting in into relay c3.
All models should have the fuse & relay wiring since the late kit comes with the fuse & relay. When you add the fuse & relay the existing wiring goes out to where the kit picks it up at C-107 for ‘03-‘04s. You can easily tell by looking for the terminals in those sockets. Plus the fuse & relay would not fit tightly if the terminals were lacking. Of course, be sure you are at the fuse 2 socket.
Lifting the PDC is not a big deal. Just free the retaining clips & lift it up enough to turn it over then remove the lower cover to see the wires. This is described in the ’04 FSM at about 8W-97-8. Just remember you do not have to disconnect the harness or other things since you are not removing it, just flipping it to get a look.
Also I notice that the early instructions has the defrost wire from fuse 15 to relay d2 and from d6 (black/white) to c-106 then splicing at S-320, one leg the glass, the other to switch indicator. On your ’04 you have power from fuse 2 to relay c-1 and from c3 to C-107, splicing at S-320 to glass & through fuse (15) to switch indicator light. The S-320 to switch wire is not in the non HT models like you have so you need to add that.
That is the only use of black/white wiring not counting possibly to switches which is not shown anywhere as far as I can see but even if it is as long as you do what I recommended in post 16 above (& noted below) you should not have any conflict at the switch. If this is not done correctly it might be at least part of the problem.
“The fuse 15 is different. You don’t need fuse 15 (or fuse 17, the one they used in 98-99). Fuse 15 was used in 04 for factory HTs to fuse that wire. You need to tap into the black/white wire that goes between the defrost relay & the heating element in the back glass & run that tapped wire through an in line 10a fuse then tap into the defrost switch indicator light which is the dark blue/red wire at pin 3. That will light the indicator whenever the element has power (is on).”
|11-22-2019 04:46 PM|
|Scoutmapper||Sorry... I put a jumper wire on slot 1 and 3 of the relay connection... Pulled the relay and jumped the two slots and no power to anything. I also tried a wire from battery + to the relay slot but did not get any power anywhere either. Either I'm doing something wrong or the PDC doesn't have wiring for fuse 2 to the relay.|
|11-22-2019 02:59 PM|
Something is not adding up.
If you have continuity from one end of a wire to the other end then connect one end to a 12v source how can you not get 12v at the other end???
I don’t understand what “Tried the jumper and nothing lit either.” means. Jumper from here to where? What is lit?
|11-22-2019 02:35 PM|
I have continuity as stated but not 12v.
Tried the jumper and nothing lit either.
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