Nv3550 swop to nsg370 - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-19-2020, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
Wrangler1979
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Nv3550 swop to nsg370

Greetings Gents. And ladies.
I am attempting to swop my nv3550 5spd to the nsg370 6spd.
The TJ in question is a 2004 Sahara 4.0
It was manufactured as a 5spd, with dana30 front and Dana44 rear.

I have found a good second hand nsg370 from a 2005 Sahara TJ.

The physical installation was easy. She bolted right up to my 04 motor. And so to the tranny. We did use the 05 flywheel instead of the 04. As the CPS mounting is different from 04 to the 05.

The problems are few.
1) The CPS had to be used from the 05. So we adapted the 05 CPS to the 04 harness. We located the positive 5v wire, the ground and signal wire from both the 05 and the 04 side.
She still does not want to start.
2) then the instrument cluster is acting up. The fuel and voltage gauges do not respond. The security key on the dash is permanently on.
I cant do the self diagnostic via the 3turn key.
And the OBD2 scanner wont connect either.

Thus I need some help!!
Questions will range from -- can the 05 CPS be used with the 04 computer.
Why is the dash crazy? Did I damage the computer somehow?

Aha, one more bit of important info, I am from South Africa, Johannesburg. So its a bit over the pond and down the valley

Anyone that has perhaps done this swop, or could help me out with info, I sure need it....

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post #2 of 20 Old 02-19-2020, 10:37 AM
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I wish I could help ya with the wiring. @jonnyjeep @mukluk should be able to help...


but why swap out the NV3550 for the 05 6 speed? The 05s had a ****ty reverse gear and synchro issues. The 06 had improvements but I would have stuck with the 5 speed.

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post #3 of 20 Old 02-19-2020, 12:23 PM
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The crank sensors are similar & should work if properly wired. I see that in 2004 there is a difference on the pin positions depending on manual or auto & for the manual it is different than the 2005 sensor. The 5v & signal wires are reversed. Are you sure you wired it correctly?

If incorrectly wired you may have blown a fuse or worse damaged the PCM.

With no gauges movement the first thing you need to do is see if you still have the 5v supply. You can check at the crank sensor or the cam sensor which is easier to access.

Also check fuse 12 in the fuse block behind the glove box.

See where that gets you & report from there.
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post #4 of 20 Old 02-19-2020, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJnBC View Post


but why swap out the NV3550 for the 05 6 speed?
My thinking was being in South Africa, parts are limited, but that's just a guess.

I am multi-talented, I can talk and piss you off at the same time.

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post #5 of 20 Old 02-19-2020, 05:54 PM
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In addition to possible miswiring when splicing in the different CKP, it's pretty easy to accidentally smash the wiring near the firewall if you're not careful during a transmission R&R.

Pretty sure you can't use a 2005 flywheel with a 2004 PCM due to the different number of CKP timing notches they changed to.
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post #6 of 20 Old 02-20-2020, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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The 6spd just has better ratios. We have a mupet here that he cant even break the 6spd, so hence its good enough for me
And i am after the better 1st crawl ratio....
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post #7 of 20 Old 02-20-2020, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi4MyMrs View Post
The crank sensors are similar & should work if properly wired. I see that in 2004 there is a difference on the pin positions depending on manual or auto & for the manual it is different than the 2005 sensor. The 5v & signal wires are reversed. Are you sure you wired it correctly?

If incorrectly wired you may have blown a fuse or worse damaged the PCM.

With no gauges movement the first thing you need to do is see if you still have the 5v supply. You can check at the crank sensor or the cam sensor which is easier to access.

Also check fuse 12 in the fuse block behind the glove box.

See where that gets you & report from there.
HI. Tnx for the info.
let me bullet point is, easier for me to keep track, and hopefully others reading.

1) the cps themselves are totally different. from 04 and the 05. Even the position on the bellhousing is different. Hence I used the 05 flywheel that works with the 05 cps. But what has me wondering, does the pcm now know?
2) Is it correctly wired? What could have happened is that the mechanic fitting it, could have miss wired it from the very first attempt. This I dont know, but a real possibility. Now, most probably after the damage has been done, it is wired correctly. We found the 5v, and yes, it still gives 5v from the loom, the ground wires. The 3rd wire will be most obvious the signal.
The plug side wires I found on the Jeep Workshop manual. There is states, which pin is which.
I just pray that and sheet myself that the pcm is not damaged, or blown

I will check the #12 fuse and report. There are also two fuses under the hood that dont receive power. i know i checked that it doesnt receive 12v. I will check tomorrow as the TJ is at the shop and Im home now, which those are again. If memory serves, it was the Injector and the O2. But I will get you the fuse numbers.
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post #8 of 20 Old 02-20-2020, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mukluk View Post
In addition to possible miswiring when splicing in the different CKP, it's pretty easy to accidentally smash the wiring near the firewall if you're not careful during a transmission R&R.

Pretty sure you can't use a 2005 flywheel with a 2004 PCM due to the different number of CKP timing notches they changed to.
So do you recommend i reinstall the 04 flywheel, and use the 05 pcm?
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post #9 of 20 Old 02-20-2020, 12:43 PM
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What I meant was that both cam sensors function similarly (3 wire with 5v inputs) not look similar.

I just noticed the FSM shows the 5v & signal wires reversed between the manual & auto in 2004 & the 2005 matches the 2004 auto’s configuration. Knowing you have a manual I just wanted to be sure you noted that difference. You could certainly test the output to verify if it is sending a signal.

While both year’s FSMs show the same flywheel configuration (3 notches) from mukluk’s photos it appears both are incorrect (not unheard of to find mistakes in the FSMs) & that may make the ’05 flywheel incompatible with your PCM. Swapping PCMs is not the answer. In ’05 they switched from JTEC to NGC PCMs & they are not at all compatible.

I would think you will have to find a flywheel solution. It is a bit over the top but there are crank trigger sensor arrangements which are positioned off the front of the crankshaft. Something like that could probably be set up if all else fails.

The fuses 16 & 28 should only have 12v power when the ASD relay is energized so probably the 2 not getting 12v.


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post #10 of 20 Old 02-20-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrangler1979 View Post
So do you recommend i reinstall the 04 flywheel, and use the 05 pcm?
Just as you can't use a 2005 with a 2004 PCM, you can't use a 2004 flywheel with a 2005 PCM. You need to put the 2004 flywheel back on and stick with your 2004 PCM. The 4.0L up through 2004 flywheel uses three sets of four CKP timing notches spaced 120° apart while the 2005/2006 uses the multitude shown in the picture earlier -- the CKP signals simply aren't compatible between the different styles. From reading online where others have done this swap though, it sounds like the relocated CKP position on the NSG370 is still in a good place to allow you to just wire in the '05 CKP and run the pre-'05 flywheel, so your 2004 engine should work just fine once you sort out your sensor wiring.

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post #11 of 20 Old 02-22-2020, 01:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi4MyMrs View Post
The crank sensors are similar & should work if properly wired. I see that in 2004 there is a difference on the pin positions depending on manual or auto & for the manual it is different than the 2005 sensor. The 5v & signal wires are reversed. Are you sure you wired it correctly?

If incorrectly wired you may have blown a fuse or worse damaged the PCM.

With no gauges movement the first thing you need to do is see if you still have the 5v supply. You can check at the crank sensor or the cam sensor which is easier to access.

Also check fuse 12 in the fuse block behind the glove box.

See where that gets you & report from there.
Hi.
So I have 12v on Fuse number #12 behind the glovebox. But do not have any voltage on #20 (See owners amual) and #15 (HBL SW)

In the fuse box under the hood I dont get any voltage from #20 (inject) and #16 (02 sens)

Previously I had 5v on the CKP and CMP sensors. But today I measuredagain and am reading only 2.4v on both of them.

Do I fear the worst? Damaged PCM?
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post #12 of 20 Old 02-22-2020, 01:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi4MyMrs View Post
What I meant was that both cam sensors function similarly (3 wire with 5v inputs) not look similar.

I just noticed the FSM shows the 5v & signal wires reversed between the manual & auto in 2004 & the 2005 matches the 2004 auto’s configuration. Knowing you have a manual I just wanted to be sure you noted that difference. You could certainly test the output to verify if it is sending a signal.

While both year’s FSMs show the same flywheel configuration (3 notches) from mukluk’s photos it appears both are incorrect (not unheard of to find mistakes in the FSMs) & that may make the ’05 flywheel incompatible with your PCM. Swapping PCMs is not the answer. In ’05 they switched from JTEC to NGC PCMs & they are not at all compatible.

I would think you will have to find a flywheel solution. It is a bit over the top but there are crank trigger sensor arrangements which are positioned off the front of the crankshaft. Something like that could probably be set up if all else fails.

The fuses 16 & 28 should only have 12v power when the ASD relay is energized so probably the 2 not getting 12v.

SO now I have the two issues.
One is to change the flywheel back to the 04, use the 05 CKP. And the 04 PCM. If its not blown
The other is the electrical issue now. SO I have found a Jeep guru here in South Africa. Waiting on him till wednesday.

Will update once he has been here
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post #13 of 20 Old 02-22-2020, 12:24 PM
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Most importantly you need to get 5v for the 3 wire sensors. Often when there is low voltage (but not 0v) it is caused by excessive draw from one of those sensors or its wiring that pulls the voltage low. Also often the gauges fail to move up when the key is turned on. If the gauges are working normally you should recheck the voltage to verify it is actually low.

If actually low the sensors involved are MAP, TPS, speed, cam & crank sensors. Try unplugging all & see if the voltage returns to 5v. If yes, plug them back in, one at a time, to see which is causing the drop. If still low (but not 0v) it could be there is a short in one of the (orange) 5v supply wires to one of the sensors. Or possibly an internal short in the PCM but most of the time when I have seen the lack of 5v caused by a PCM issue there was no output voltage so hopefully the low output cause is external.

I think the injector fuse is 28, not 20. Both that & the O2 heaters should only get 12v when the ASD is energized so not a concern as long as they get power when the ASD is energized which should be when cranking the engine & when it is running (PCM needs crank sensor signal for ASD function).
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post #14 of 20 Old 02-26-2020, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Update.
So the PCM is not blown.... phew....
We traced it to a faulty speedo sensor. Unplugged that, and all is back to normal.

So my Computer issues are sorted.

Now for the final last piece of the puzzle. The flywheel and the CKS.
@ mukluk, if you say to use the 04 fly, and 05 cks, how will the ECU know where is TDC? Coz now the CKS is in a different position? The nv CKS sits in the bellousing at approx 11 o'clock. Whereas the nsg CKS sits at around 3 o'clock...
As the ECU wont know the CKS is in a different spot, the timing on ignition is going to be totally out??? Or is there some vodoo magic I am missing??
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post #15 of 20 Old 02-26-2020, 12:04 PM
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It may not be voodoo magic, just math…

Since the 3 notch sets are 120° apart on the ’04 & earlier flywheel, if the crank sensor location happens to have a 120° difference (which I have read is the case for the NSG-370 bell housing) it should work just fine.

The PCM does not know which set is for which cylinder’s TDC. The cam sensor is what tells the PCM that info.

That is not the case for the NGC PCM (’05 & ’06) configuration which uses 2 marks so #1/6 would be specifically defined.
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