Engine Ping - Solution? - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 14 Old 04-28-2021, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
Kiwi_TJ
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Engine Ping - Solution?

Hi There,


I have a 1997 TJ with the 4.0 Engine, with 200,000 Miles on it and am getting more ping (knock) than I think I should, so am keen for any solutions you may have.


I am running premiumn gas, which helps reduce it, but when I switch back to normaly gas, the ping comes back.


Would new spark plugs help? Current ones (NGK) only have 30,000 km on them.


1997 TJ Soft Top/ Half Doors
4.0 I6 with 5 Speed Manual | K&N Panel Filter | D30/D44 | 3.07 Gears | Banks Torque Tube Header
31*10.5 R15 Maxxis Trepador Radial Tyres | 2" BDS Spring Lift | Bilstein 5100 Shocks | JKS Discos | JKS Rear Swaybar Links | 100W Narva Spotlights
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post #2 of 14 Old 04-28-2021, 04:42 PM
jtec
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pinging suggests combustion chamber HEAT -
you are using correct plugs?
Fuel pressure MAy figure into this - a fuel pressure check with a gauge.
Fuel octane - I don't know about NZ fuel grades and quality - anything different than owners manual specs.
Check for codes - don't know till we look.
A vacuum leak BUT I would suspect a code.

We could use a top end cleaner to remove any excess carbon deposits - just expect ALOT of smoke.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
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post #3 of 14 Old 04-28-2021, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
Kiwi_TJ
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Hi There,

I am running NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs.
Fuel is 95 RON
No codes on scan tool
I have an AEM AFR Vacuum Gauge and pretty sure based on this no vacuum leaks.

Would need to get a fuel pressure gauge to check that.

1997 TJ Soft Top/ Half Doors
4.0 I6 with 5 Speed Manual | K&N Panel Filter | D30/D44 | 3.07 Gears | Banks Torque Tube Header
31*10.5 R15 Maxxis Trepador Radial Tyres | 2" BDS Spring Lift | Bilstein 5100 Shocks | JKS Discos | JKS Rear Swaybar Links | 100W Narva Spotlights
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post #4 of 14 Old 04-30-2021, 04:57 PM
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Is it a daily driver, or is it infrequently driven? If the latter, octane rating declines more quickly over time than you might expect.

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post #5 of 14 Old 05-02-2021, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
Kiwi_TJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine_Cat View Post
Is it a daily driver, or is it infrequently driven? If the latter, octane rating declines more quickly over time than you might expect.

Definitely a daily driver, that is why it has 265,000 km on the clock


So fuel runs through it regularly, getting about 18 mpg.

1997 TJ Soft Top/ Half Doors
4.0 I6 with 5 Speed Manual | K&N Panel Filter | D30/D44 | 3.07 Gears | Banks Torque Tube Header
31*10.5 R15 Maxxis Trepador Radial Tyres | 2" BDS Spring Lift | Bilstein 5100 Shocks | JKS Discos | JKS Rear Swaybar Links | 100W Narva Spotlights
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-02-2021, 09:25 PM
Jerry Bransford
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There's a common cause of that problem but tell me exactly how you drive it first. Do you always treat the engine very gently and seldom if ever rev it hard or to high rpms? Or do you tend to drive it hard and get on it regularly? Please be absolutely honest. Always gentle? Or often hard?

If you answer in the way I suspect I have an easy fix for.you.

When you have a choice, buy American made.
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-02-2021, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
Kiwi_TJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
There's a common cause of that problem but tell me exactly how you drive it first. Do you always treat the engine very gently and seldom if ever rev it hard or to high rpms? Or do you tend to drive it hard and get on it regularly? Please be absolutely honest. Always gentle? Or often hard?

If you answer in the way I suspect I have an easy fix for.you.

Hi Jerry,


Mostly round town running. I have an AX-15 to normally run the engine to about 2,500 rpm before changing, out of first, then to about 3,000 rpm to change out of second, then into 3rd then 4th about 45 km/hr.


When I get to the motorway, I will rev it out to about 3,500 rpm before shifting from 2-3, then 3-4, then less obvously into 5th, so as not to upset the "Boys in Blue"



Does that help?

1997 TJ Soft Top/ Half Doors
4.0 I6 with 5 Speed Manual | K&N Panel Filter | D30/D44 | 3.07 Gears | Banks Torque Tube Header
31*10.5 R15 Maxxis Trepador Radial Tyres | 2" BDS Spring Lift | Bilstein 5100 Shocks | JKS Discos | JKS Rear Swaybar Links | 100W Narva Spotlights
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post #8 of 14 Old 05-03-2021, 08:46 PM
Jerry Bransford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi_TJ View Post
Hi Jerry,


Mostly round town running. I have an AX-15 to normally run the engine to about 2,500 rpm before changing, out of first, then to about 3,000 rpm to change out of second, then into 3rd then 4th about 45 km/hr.

When I get to the motorway, I will rev it out to about 3,500 rpm before shifting from 2-3, then 3-4, then less obvously into 5th, so as not to upset the "Boys in Blue"

Does that help?
Yes it did. Your very conservative driving style is responsible for the pinging. When the engine is driven too conservatively carbon forms in the combustion chambers which reduces the available volume which in turn raises the compression level. Higher compression causes the gasoline to self-combust aka pre-ignition, compression igniting it before the spark hits it. Aka knocking or pinging. That's why the higher octane is helping, it helps the gasoline to resist the effects of the excessive compression level.

There are two ways to get rid of the carbon buildup. Both are well proven and favorites of experienced mechanics and car enthusiasts.

1) Fastest. Fill a spill-resistant 12-16 ounce container, like a beverage can, with plain water. Remove the air intake tube from the top of the throttle body. That just takes a Phillips head screwdriver. Start the engine. While holding the rpms up a tad via the throttle lever, SLOWLY (!) trickle/dribble the entire can of water down into the throttle body. Slowly enough that it will take a couple minutes to drain the can. NO, doing this as described will not damage the engine so long as you don't accidentally dump the water into the engine. Done correctly, as described, this creates little microscopic shock waves inside the combustion chambers which breaks up the carbon which gets blown out the exhaust. This was discovered during WWII by allied bomber aircraft mechanics working on engines that used water injection to increase the power. They discovered engines that used water injection were consistently sparkling clean inside. This method works, it works VERY well, and (again) it will not cause any engine damage. Nope, not at all. Just maintain complete control of the can of water so too much can't accidentally dump out. Just carefully trickle it in as slowly as you can.

2) Perform the age-old "Italian tuneup". This is the other cure for your very common problem. This can take a few days if done while driving. It works too, just don't do the below around the 'boys in blue". It's nothing more than revving the engine hard and to high (!) rpms as often as possible to help blow the carbon out. An old Corvette mechanic taught it to me and explained few Corvette owners drove them aggressively enough which causes the same problem you're experiencing. You can do it at home too but it's doubtful your neighbors will appreciate it. It's easier to do while driving. Accelerating HARD and to HIGH rpms just below redline repeatedly as often as possible over several days. Like when getting onto the freeway or highway, delay the shifts until the rpms are near redline with full throttle. No this is not bad for the engine. Driving too conservatively over the years is what caused the current problem.

The dealer can fix it too by feeding the engine wit Mopar CCC (combustion chamber cleaner). They do so while keeping the engine rpms high while adding the CCC. This around a $300 process. What is CCC? It is water with just a tiny bit of ammonia added as a bit of detergent. It's nothing more than method #1 above but with a tiny amount of ammonia added to the water for $300.

Either of these will fix/cure the problem. Don't be afraid to do either.

Finally, keep in mind that driving the engine too conservatively is not doing your engine any favors. Just get on it once in a while to keep the carbon at bay.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
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post #9 of 14 Old 05-05-2021, 04:38 AM
1Old_Crow
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Thanks for the laugh and the memory, Jerry. Your method #1 works well(always has), but boy, does it piss everybody else in the shop off when you fill the whole building with smoke.

Wally Crow
ASE Master Auto Tech(ret)
'03 TJ Sahara
"Roads? Where we're going we don't need roads."
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-05-2021, 06:41 AM
jtec
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thats a consensus, excess carbon - IN post 2 I mentioned 'top end" cleaner, Jerry Bransford (I always read his posts) woke me up and you want 'combustion chamber" cleaner, just remember the SMOKE will be noticeable.

I want to suggest the product instead of feeding water into engine, my thoughts go - people tend to over do things, some is good more is better, if it can go wrong it will, nothing is GI proof. get a can a vacuum line and go away.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-05-2021, 07:33 PM
Jerry Bransford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Old_Crow View Post
Thanks for the laugh and the memory, Jerry. Your method #1 works well(always has), but boy, does it piss everybody else in the shop off when you fill the whole building with smoke.
Not with water, at least not nearly like you get with products like Sea Foam. 😊

When you have a choice, buy American made.
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post #12 of 14 Old 05-05-2021, 09:10 PM
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If you're concerned about getting too much water too quickly into the intake, use a water filled spray bottle with the nozzle set to mist instead.

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post #13 of 14 Old 05-05-2021, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Yes it did. Your very conservative driving style is responsible for the pinging. When the engine is driven too conservatively carbon forms in the combustion chambers which reduces the available volume which in turn raises the compression level. Higher compression causes the gasoline to self-combust aka pre-ignition, compression igniting it before the spark hits it. Aka knocking or pinging. That's why the higher octane is helping, it helps the gasoline to resist the effects of the excessive compression level.

There are two ways to get rid of the carbon buildup. Both are well proven and favorites of experienced mechanics and car enthusiasts.

1) Fastest. Fill a spill-resistant 12-16 ounce container, like a beverage can, with plain water. Remove the air intake tube from the top of the throttle body. That just takes a Phillips head screwdriver. Start the engine. While holding the rpms up a tad via the throttle lever, SLOWLY (!) trickle/dribble the entire can of water down into the throttle body. Slowly enough that it will take a couple minutes to drain the can. NO, doing this as described will not damage the engine so long as you don't accidentally dump the water into the engine. Done correctly, as described, this creates little microscopic shock waves inside the combustion chambers which breaks up the carbon which gets blown out the exhaust. This was discovered during WWII by allied bomber aircraft mechanics working on engines that used water injection to increase the power. They discovered engines that used water injection were consistently sparkling clean inside. This method works, it works VERY well, and (again) it will not cause any engine damage. Nope, not at all. Just maintain complete control of the can of water so too much can't accidentally dump out. Just carefully trickle it in as slowly as you can.

2) Perform the age-old "Italian tuneup". This is the other cure for your very common problem. This can take a few days if done while driving. It works too, just don't do the below around the 'boys in blue". It's nothing more than revving the engine hard and to high (!) rpms as often as possible to help blow the carbon out. An old Corvette mechanic taught it to me and explained few Corvette owners drove them aggressively enough which causes the same problem you're experiencing. You can do it at home too but it's doubtful your neighbors will appreciate it. It's easier to do while driving. Accelerating HARD and to HIGH rpms just below redline repeatedly as often as possible over several days. Like when getting onto the freeway or highway, delay the shifts until the rpms are near redline with full throttle. No this is not bad for the engine. Driving too conservatively over the years is what caused the current problem.

The dealer can fix it too by feeding the engine wit Mopar CCC (combustion chamber cleaner). They do so while keeping the engine rpms high while adding the CCC. This around a $300 process. What is CCC? It is water with just a tiny bit of ammonia added as a bit of detergent. It's nothing more than method #1 above but with a tiny amount of ammonia added to the water for $300.

Either of these will fix/cure the problem. Don't be afraid to do either.

Finally, keep in mind that driving the engine too conservatively is not doing your engine any favors. Just get on it once in a while to keep the carbon at bay.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for that, I had heard of Option 2, but the ping put me off trying it. I have seen / heard some bad things about running engines hard with detonation.

So last night I took off the air intake tube and put a nozzle above the throttle body and misted about half a litre of water into the throttle body while the Jeep was running at 1,000 - 2,000 rpm, over about 5-10 minutes.

No smoke, but there did look to be steam coming out the tailpipe

So having done Option 1, today while I was heading up the motorway on a slight incline, I put the hammer down. This was a section of road, where I had previously got the engine ping. This time I revved it out to 5,000 rpm. It revved smoothly with no ping.

So thanks heaps, my Jeep is now running much better, and I can drop down from 95 RON fuel to normal 91 RON fuel, which is about 5 cents per litre cheaper. (When you are regularly filling a Jeep, this makes a difference!)

Good to have an easy fix for something like this - thanks heaps
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1997 TJ Soft Top/ Half Doors
4.0 I6 with 5 Speed Manual | K&N Panel Filter | D30/D44 | 3.07 Gears | Banks Torque Tube Header
31*10.5 R15 Maxxis Trepador Radial Tyres | 2" BDS Spring Lift | Bilstein 5100 Shocks | JKS Discos | JKS Rear Swaybar Links | 100W Narva Spotlights
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-06-2021, 06:00 AM
1Old_Crow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Not with water, at least not nearly like you get with products like Sea Foam. 😊
I worked in GM shops, the product they carry for this is labeled "top engine cleaner". You were supposed to feed most of the can slowly per your instructions, and then stall the engine with the last couple of ounces, let the motor sit for a while and then crank it up. That way you got to smoke everybody out twice.

I've used the water at home, outside, and yeah, it doesn't smoke as bad, but it still draws curious neighbors. ATF is fun, too. I think it creates the biggest cloud.

I've never used Seafoam to de-carbon an engine, but I did add it to a full tank of gas in my motor home(you know what a gallon of that stuff costs?!!). Ran that tank and one more through the engine and then decided I'd better change the fuel filter. Must have been a bunch of crap in the tank, because you couldn't even blow through the filter, and it only had around 12k miles on it. Got rid of a misfire under a small load I had though.
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Wally Crow
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'03 TJ Sahara
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