Tremec T-176 vs. T-177 / T-178 differences - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
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post #31 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 01:17 PM
Matt1981CJ7
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Originally Posted by smbundy13 View Post
I dont think that is a factual statement.. as i have read on more than a couple threads that there are T177 factory in CJs that had D300..
From Advanced adapters:

VARIATIONS The T176 also had a couple different offshoots known as the T177 and T178. These were basically the same transmission as the T176 but with minor variations. The T177 and T178 were commonly used in J Series trucks and wagons. The transmissions themselves were not necessarily stronger; rather their variations were more based on gear ratios, input shaft lengths and rear bolt pattern rotations. The T177 and T178 used significantly longer input shafts and a bell housing spacer of 2.75Ē(see photo) was used to compensate for the deeper engine compartments on the full size Jeeps. The gearing differed as well. We have seen the following gear ratios: T177 3.82, 2.29, 1.46, 1.00 R3.82 T178 3.00, 2.08, 1.47, 1.00, R3.01 Caution should be used when obtaining a T177 or T178 for conversions. The longer inputs normally have to be changed for most engine conversions. As a general rule, any time an input shaft needs to be changed the cluster it meshes with must have the same tooth count. Since the T176, T177, and T178 have varying first gear ratios, their cluster gears also varied, for example we have seen cluster gear tooth counts of 19, 20 and 22. It is therefore critical to select the shorter input transmissions if an engine conversion is desired.


From the Novak link I provided earlier:

The T177 and T178 are the J Series versions of this transmission as supplied with the 258 I6, and they feature significantly longer input shafts and bellhousing spacers to compensate for the deeper bulkheads of the FSJ Jeeps. The gearing differs as well. References to the T176 are largely similar to the other two versions. Failures of the T17x are more common in the Jeep trucks as they had greater weight and duty demands.

The Jeep T176 was factory-married to the Jeep Dana Spicer Model 300 transfer case. The T177 and T178 transmissions were married to the New Process 208 (208J) transfer cases.


I guess you will find out soon enough.

Matt



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post #32 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
From Advanced adapters:

VARIATIONS The T176 also had a couple different offshoots known as the T177 and T178. These were basically the same transmission as the T176 but with minor variations. The T177 and T178 were commonly used in J Series trucks and wagons. The transmissions themselves were not necessarily stronger; rather their variations were more based on gear ratios, input shaft lengths and rear bolt pattern rotations. The T177 and T178 used significantly longer input shafts and a bell housing spacer of 2.75Ē(see photo) was used to compensate for the deeper engine compartments on the full size Jeeps. The gearing differed as well. We have seen the following gear ratios: T177 3.82, 2.29, 1.46, 1.00 R3.82 T178 3.00, 2.08, 1.47, 1.00, R3.01 Caution should be used when obtaining a T177 or T178 for conversions. The longer inputs normally have to be changed for most engine conversions. As a general rule, any time an input shaft needs to be changed the cluster it meshes with must have the same tooth count. Since the T176, T177, and T178 have varying first gear ratios, their cluster gears also varied, for example we have seen cluster gear tooth counts of 19, 20 and 22. It is therefore critical to select the shorter input transmissions if an engine conversion is desired.


From the Novak link I provided earlier:

The T177 and T178 are the J Series versions of this transmission as supplied with the 258 I6, and they feature significantly longer input shafts and bellhousing spacers to compensate for the deeper bulkheads of the FSJ Jeeps. The gearing differs as well. References to the T176 are largely similar to the other two versions. Failures of the T17x are more common in the Jeep trucks as they had greater weight and duty demands.

The Jeep T176 was factory-married to the Jeep Dana Spicer Model 300 transfer case. The T177 and T178 transmissions were married to the New Process 208 (208J) transfer cases.


I guess you will find out soon enough.

Matt
I can copy and paste too.. from this thread that you didnt read.. not trying to start an argument at all... but i have seen from multiple sources that say Novak's guide needs to be revised.. i have an email out to them asking for clarification.. but you are right, I will find out in the next week or so. I will post up here to let people know.

So in 85 for example, it sounds like you could get either a 176?, a 177, or a T4.

Based on all the CJs Iíve seen and worked on over the last 27 years, it appears the T4 was found behind both the 4 and 6 cyl engines but had different input spline counts ( 14 vs 10). The tremic units behind the 6 cyl only ? Thatís all Ive seen but not sure.

Ive seen a lot of Scramblers come with T177s but Iíve seen the Borg Warner 4 and 5 speeds in them as well.

I would guess a towing package would get you a 177, but was it stated or were you given the options?

y friend had a 84 CJ-7 with T-177 and 3.31 gears. It was very much stock with the Laredo option.

Thanks for this info helped me verify exactly what I've got. I knew it was either a 176 or 177 but this confirms I've got a 83 CJ-7 with a 151, T177 and 3.73s

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post #33 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 01:31 PM
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My T-177 mated up exactly to the Dana 300 off my T-4. Only problem was it put the Transfer case shifter in the same spot as it was on my T-150/Dana 20 combo. What t-case was hooked up to the T-177 in the J-Truck?

You can use a T-176 adapter on a T-177
https://www.ebay.com/p/Jeep-CJ-T176-...ec/21011637586

Not knowing you can't do it helps a lot getting it together.

We'll just skip over the fact that I used the output yolks off my D-20 because on my D-300 because the D-300 had the strap type u-joints and the dana 20 had the u-bolts. You can''t do that either.....

Ignorance IS bliss...
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post #34 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 01:39 PM
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While it may be true that some CJs came with T177/D300 combo, I can almost guarantee you they didn't have the longer FSJ input shaft.

I don't want to argue either, but I looked at a lot of FSJ transmissions when I did my swap. They all had a MUCH longer input shaft than the CJ transmissions, like 4-5" longer.

But, you seem like a "I'll see for myself" kind of guy, so have it. Let me know if my information is correct, or not. Thanks.

Matt


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post #35 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
While it may be true that some CJs came with T177/D300 combo, I can almost guarantee you they didn't have the longer FSJ input shaft.

I don't want to argue either, but I looked at a lot of FSJ transmissions when I did my swap. They all had a MUCH longer input shaft than the CJ transmissions, like 4-5" longer.

But, you seem like a "I'll see for myself" kind of guy, so have it. Let me know if my information is correct, or not. Thanks.

Matt
I will.. thanks again for the Info.. figured since its free (bartering my RV cover to my neighbor for his Travel Trailer) it is worth a shot..

so, just for grins.. I could theoretically measure the input shaft length while its still in the truck (since the engine is currently out).. am I looking for 7.5" of length from the case? and not, 12-13" like what we are thinking might be?

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post #36 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
My T-177 mated up exactly to the Dana 300 off my T-4. Only problem was it put the Transfer case shifter in the same spot as it was on my T-150/Dana 20 combo. What t-case was hooked up to the T-177 in the J-Truck?

Ignorance IS bliss...
can you elaborate on the shifter location you mention?

this is how mine currently sits (with boots also)


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post #37 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smbundy13 View Post
so, just for grins.. I could theoretically measure the input shaft length while its still in the truck (since the engine is currently out).. am I looking for 7.5" of length from the case? and not, 12-13" like what we are thinking might be?
That's correct. The difference will be obvious. Here's a pic showing the differences in length (compliments of Fourtrail on another thread). Top is a FSJ, bottom is a CJ.

Matt
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post #38 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
That's correct. The difference will be obvious. Here's a pic showing the differences in length (compliments of Fourtrail on another thread). Top is a FSJ, bottom is a CJ.

Matt
exactly what i need to know/see.. thanks alot

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post #39 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 02:39 PM
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The top one there also has the D20 on it - notice the 1" thick adapter on the rear of the transmission, where the bottom one has the ~3" adapter for the D300.
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post #40 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 03:24 PM
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Any way you slice it, I think the major hurdles of using a FSJ trans and bell housing in a CJ will be the shifter location and rear cross-member compatibility, specifically the trans mount bolt hole locations. There may also be tub clearance problems in the trans tunnel. Of course, the driveshafts will be different lengths, as well, with the rear being shorter, which may cause driveline angle problems.

If Bundy is wanting a stronger transmission, a T18 or T19 swap would be the easiest, IMO. The t-case adapted length of either of those will be almost identical to his SR4, thereby allowing him to use the same driveshafts. Since the T-18 was a factory option, his cross member will also work without modification. He would have to modify his trans cover plate, since the shift tower will be in a different location, but that's an easy mod. There are a few other details that I'm leaving out, but overall the SR4 to T18/19 swap is so easy a dummy like me can do it.

Matt


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post #41 of 61 Old 08-12-2019, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Any way you slice it, I think the major hurdles of using a FSJ trans and bell housing in a CJ will be the shifter location and rear cross-member compatibility, specifically the trans mount bolt hole locations. There may also be tub clearance problems in the trans tunnel. Of course, the driveshafts will be different lengths, as well, with the rear being shorter, which may cause driveline angle problems.

If Bundy is wanting a stronger transmission, a T18 or T19 swap would be the easiest, IMO. The t-case adapted length of either of those will be almost identical to his SR4, thereby allowing him to use the same driveshafts. Since the T-18 was a factory option, his cross member will also work without modification. He would have to modify his trans cover plate, since the shift tower will be in a different location, but that's an easy mod. There are a few other details that I'm leaving out, but overall the SR4 to T18/19 swap is so easy a dummy like me can do it.

Matt
yeah.. i know that there are potentially better swaps.. i am just hung on the fact that no money is leaving my pocket for the actual trans.. but, i will measure before dropping the trans

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post #42 of 61 Old 08-13-2019, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
That's correct. The difference will be obvious. Here's a pic showing the differences in length (compliments of Fourtrail on another thread). Top is a FSJ, bottom is a CJ.

Matt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutlass327 View Post
The top one there also has the D20 on it - notice the 1" thick adapter on the rear of the transmission, where the bottom one has the ~3" adapter for the D300.
The top one is not a T-177 maybe a T-98 or SM-420?? with a dana 20. Not sure what the bottom tranny is, looks like a T-18/19. The T-176 or T-177 cover is not shaped like that.

However I think the T-177 will have a similar spacer in it between the bell housing and the tranny.


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post #43 of 61 Old 08-13-2019, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
That's correct. The difference will be obvious. Here's a pic showing the differences in length (compliments of Fourtrail on another thread). Top is a FSJ, bottom is a CJ.

Matt

Quote:
Originally Posted by smbundy13 View Post
exactly what i need to know/see.. thanks alot
The top trans is a T18/D20 combo from a FSJ (notice the PTO cover plate). However, the T170 series will be the same way on the bellhousing side. edit: may not be a T18, but not a T17x either

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
Any way you slice it, I think the major hurdles of using a FSJ trans and bell housing in a CJ will be the shifter location and rear cross-member compatibility, specifically the trans mount bolt hole locations. There may also be tub clearance problems in the trans tunnel. Of course, the driveshafts will be different lengths, as well, with the rear being shorter, which may cause driveline angle problems.
Bingo. Also you will need to verify if the FSJ transmission is a T177 or T178. Typically with a manual transmission, the, tooth count on the back of the input shaft will change with different 1st gear ratios. If this is true for the T170 series, and the FSJ has a T178 in it, then you won't be able to get a CJ shaft to match it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smbundy13 View Post
yeah.. i know that there are potentially better swaps.. i am just hung on the fact that no money is leaving my pocket for the actual trans.. but, i will measure before dropping the trans
Double check on the tcase end too. If you have to swap out the mainshaft and input shaft to make it work, you will probably be just as cheap to buy a CJ T176 or 7 instead.
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post #44 of 61 Old 08-13-2019, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smbundy13 View Post
can you elaborate on the shifter location you mention?

this is how mine currently sits (with boots also)


My T-177 with Dana 300 off a T-4

The tunnel cover was from my T-150/Dana 20 setup.
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post #45 of 61 Old 08-13-2019, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
My T-177 with Dana 300 off a T-4

The tunnel cover was from my T-150/Dana 20 setup.
Thanks alot!

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