Team Rush: Ignition Coil Connector Wiring. - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
78CJFIVE
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Team Rush: Ignition Coil Connector Wiring.

Did the TeamRush upgrade 2 weeks ago. Wow! What a difference!! I used to have to stay on the gas for a couple minutes to get my CJ started, and idling.

Now I just hit it twice, and turn the key and I get a nice smooth idle. I used Napa parts, with Belden wires. I did not replace or gap my plugs yet, but I will soon. Also going to recurve the dist soon.

Just had a question about the coil connector wiring. It is a 3 wire connector from napa.

Heres the connector I used for my e-coil:
http://partimages2.genpt.com/largeimages/99774.jpg

I just crimped the red and one of the greens to the wires my stock coil were connected to. What do I do with the other green wire?

Heres a pic:

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...o/100_0028.jpg

Thanks JF!

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post #2 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 05:01 PM
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Glad it helped.
I developed this so guys wouldn't have to shell out $400 or $500 just so the thing would start and idle and run down the road at 55 mph!

Not much to it was there?!

Ready for the next step? Making your distributor 'Tune' fit your engine/vehicle a little better?
Get a little more 'Zip' out of your engine?

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post #3 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 05:38 PM
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I just finished my upgrade last weekend
The third wire is for a tachometer if you have one.
Other then that it's not needed.

85 CJ-7, 258 I6, 35's, 4" BDS suspension lift, 1" body lift to clear tires, swaybar disconnects, Currie tie rod and steering rod, Rusty's BEEFY steering gear mount, Steering brace, Superior one piece axles, Detroit locker rear and Detroit TT up front, T5 Tranny, Dana 30, AMC 20, Dana 300 TC,TR upgrade, TJ flares, and Howell TBI.
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post #4 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Glad it helped.
I developed this so guys wouldn't have to shell out $400 or $500 just so the thing would start and idle and run down the road at 55 mph!

Not much to it was there?!

Ready for the next step? Making your distributor 'Tune' fit your engine/vehicle a little better?
Get a little more 'Zip' out of your engine?
So don't leave us hanging
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post #5 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 10:16 PM
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What do you want to know?

How about opening up the spark plug gap to about 0.045" so the firing voltages are driven up since they can take advantage of the taller rotor and larger spacing between cap terminals...
Gets that firing voltage up to about 40,000 Volts, plenty enough to fire any gasoline engine...
.................................................

Next, what you need to do is get a set of timing tapes for your harmonic balancer so you can plot the advance curve of the distributor.

If you DON'T get the tapes, there really isn't any way to tell what you have to start with, or what you have changed to as you are tuning.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku



--------------------------------------------

How about some 'HOW TO...'

How to 'Phase' in your rotor to your distributor cap?

How to add more centrifugal advance?
How to have the centrifugal advance come 'IN' faster?

How to have the vacuum advance come in faster?
How to add more vacuum advance?

How to know when we've added too much advance, both Initial or total?

Is this the stuff you want to know?...
(We actually just covered this for a few of the guys, but I'll give it a go again if you guys are interested...)
----------------------------------------

To start with, you have three parts to your 'TOTAL ADVANCE'.

1. Initial Advance.
Most of you are familiar with that since 'Initial Advance' is what you set by twisting the distributor and watching the timing scale and harmonic balancer mark with a timing light...

2. Vacuum Advance.
If you have the rubber hose from your distributor Vacuum Advance Canister hooked up to the correct Vacuum Port on the Carburetor, then you will have 'Vacuum Advance' at the correct time.

'Spark Ported Vacuum' is a percentage of the air flow through the carb.
The more air that flows through the carb, the more vacuum will be on that line.
This particular part of the 'Advance Curve' is load sensitive, as load increases, the spark ported vacuum will retard the timing slightly, and it's all automatic.

3. Centrifugal Advance.
This is a set of weights that are held back by springs.
As the distributor shaft rotates faster with engine RPM, the weights will eventually overcome the springs and the weights will activate ignition advance.

This adjustment is strictly RPM related.
The stiffer the springs, the later in the RPM range the advance comes in.
The lighter the springs, the sooner in the RPM range the advance will come in.

Jeep/Motorcraft was also good enough to build in some extra advance if you want to use it! (GM HEI distributors and most HEI clones don't have this extra advance, just the springs)

So, by adjusting the amount of advance, and the RPM timing of the advance, you can get some substantial gains out of the centrifugal end of things...
-----------------------------

To Plot your current advance curve, you are going to need to clean off your harmonic balancer,
Choose the correct tape for your balancer diameter,
Install the tape (Scale to the LEFT of the mark!),
And plot your current ignition curve,

Write that information down in a note book!
(Tuners live and die by their notebooks!)
.................................

To start with,
Unhook the vacuum advance, Plug the line.
Start the engine and warm it up.
Have a look at the INITIAL TIMING showing on the balancer/timing scale with a timing light.
Should be between about 6 and 12 BEFORE TOP DEAD CENTER (BTDC)

Now, take a piece of CLEAN vacuum line the correct Size for your distributor vacuum advance canister, and suck on that line for all you are worth!
If your 'Suck Maker' doesn't work so well, you are going to need a Hand Held Vacuum Pump'.
You can 'Borrow/Rent' one from the local 'Discount' stores like Auto Zone if you can't make enough vacuum by mouth...

If you are using a vacuum pump with gauge, take note of what the vacuum reading is when the advance starts to move (increase) and what the vacuum reading is when it stops moving. This will be handy later when you are dialing in the finishing touches to your 'Tune'...

Once you have enough vacuum pulled on the distributor vacuum advance canister that it's 'Full IN', take a reading with the timing light.

Write that reading down in a second column and subtract the 'Initial reading' from it, that will be your total vacuum advance.

Let the vacuum off the vacuum advance, and leave the vacuum advance line from the carb disconnected and plugged...
.................................

Time for CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE plotting...

Run the engine RPM up a little at a time until you see the advance start to move (Increase).
Note the RPM at which the CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE starts to move.

Continue increasing the RPM until the advance no longer increases.
If you can determine the RPM at which the ignition advance STOPS increasing, this will be useful.

Note down the total centrifugal advance in a third column,
Subtract the Initial Advance from the first column from that number,
And you have the AMOUNT OF CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE.
The RPM the advance starts, and the RPM the advance stops will tell you a lot also, that is the 'RATE'...
.............................................

BELIEVE THIS OR NOT...
But the most advance your engine will see is when you are running down the highway at 'Part Throttle Cruise'.

1. Your engine is consuming enough air through the carb the Spark Ported Vacuum has the Distributor Vacuum Advance fully 'IN',

2. Your engine RPM is high enough the Centrifugal Advance is fully 'IN',

3. And your fuel mixture is at it's leanest point, since you aren't using any of the 'Enrichment' circuits,
You are just running on Main Jets Only...

This is where I want you to look/listen/feel for problems in 'Part Throttle Cruise'...
I want you to feel for 'Pinging' or for engine 'Lag' or 'Stumble',
Listen for 'Spark Knock', 'Engine Rattle', 'Detonation'.

When you get too much advance, 'Part Throttle Cruise' is where it will combine and show up, so be aware!
If you are in traffic, and give your Jeep just a touch more throttle to keep up with traffic, and it 'Dogs', 'Bogs' or 'Stumbles', This is the first sign you are getting too much advance too soon and you need to fix this before it gets really bad...

If the problem is REALLY bad, you will Hear/Feel 'Spark Knock', 'Pinging', 'Chugging', ect.
This is the same problem, just MUCH WORSE, and you MUST do something about it or you will wind up like this guy who bought a HEI Clone and it had WAY TOO MUCH advance built into it for the average AMC engine!...





You guys have the upper hand in this, since you are working UP from a very safe baseline, instead of getting something dangerous and not knowing it!

Just when you are out testing on the highway to see what your changes have done, keep in mind that 'Part Throttle Cruise' will tell you if you have screwed up or gone too far so you can change it before it damages anything!
----------------------------
-----------------------------

ANYWAY! OFF TO THE RACES!

Vacuum Advance adjustment.
Jeep/Motorcraft distributors have adjustable RATE vacuum advances from the factory.
To make make your vacuum advance come 'IN' sooner, all you need is a 1/8" Allen wrench and some 'Know How'...



With a few turns of the wrist, you can make your VACUUM ADVANCE come 'IN' later (meaning the vacuum has to be higher before it will start),
Or you can make the vacuum advance come 'IN' sooner,
(meaning the vacuum will be lower when the vacuum arm starts moving)
................

To change the AMOUNT of Vacuum Advance, you will have to do some minor surgery...
Depending on the type of engine you have...

Above is shown a V-8 type vacuum advance, and there is a slot in the arm, with a fixed stop to limit the total amount of movement.
If you lengthen the slot with a 'Dremel' tool,
OR,
Remove the stop entirely, the arm will move it's maximum amount and give you a little more vacuum advance.

If you have an I-6 engine, this is what your vacuum advance will look like,
Vacuum Canister on the Right, sorry, I just don't have a better picture than that...



Again, you can adjust the RATE of the vacuum advance with an Allen wrench,
And you can manipulate the total Vacuum Advance by lengthening the slot just above the Punch (Tool) in the picture where the trigger arm reaches down for the vacuum advance arm.
.................................................. ....

ON TO THE CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE,

This is a little bit trickier than the vacuum advance, since the centrifugal weights and springs are in the BOTTOM of the Jeep/Motorcraft distributor.
This gets a HUGE electrical 'Ground' out of the distributor cap,
AND,
It keeps a bunch of weight off the end of an unsupported distributor shaft so the shaft doesn't wobble around a bunch during operation....
It's a good design, but takes a little longer to reach the advance weights/springs.

Starting with the I-6 distributor...

Strip off the Distributor Cap, Cap Adapter,

Mark the Roll Pin notch on the RELUCTOR...
This is important! There may be more than one notch in the Reluctor, and you want to get the roll pin back in the correct one!



I'm perfectly aware this is a V-8 reluctor being marked, but I don't have a picture of a I-6 reluctor being marked...
Besides, the advance head slot for the roll pin, and the roll pin slot in the reluctor are the same arrangement on both distributors.

Remove the Reluctor CAREFULLY by pulling straight up on it.
DO NOT LOOSE THE VERY SMALL ROLL PIN THAT IS IN THE SLOT YOU MARKED THE LOCATION OF!
You will play he!! trying to find one that small on a Sunday, so don't loose this one!

The copper colored thing is the Centrifugal Advance Head where the Rotor mounts,
And the groove facing the camera is the roll pin slot...



This is the I-6 Reluctor and it's VERY small roll pin...



What you can't see is a second roll pin slot slightly off time with the one you can see.
It's hiding behind the lug on the reluctor closest to the camera...
THAT'S WHY YOU MARK THE ONE YOU ARE USING BEFORE REMOVING IT!
...........................

Remove two screws holding the trigger plate down and lift it straight up.
The two screws are right across from each other, and you can locate the first one by looking at what's holding the wiring down...
(This is your ENTIRE primary ignition ground terminal, so be good to it if you don't add a ground to the module!)



This is what the trigger/floor plate looks like lifted off the distributor so you can get to the weights/springs/advance head...



..............................

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post #6 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 10:17 PM
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This is more or less what your distributor is going to look like with the trigger plate lifted off...
V-8 and I-6 are VERY similar when the trigger/floor plates are lifted off, but this is an I-6 distributor...



Now, I encourage you to put the rotor back on the advance head, and twist around on it so you can see how the springs/weights work!
This stuff is VERY sturdy, so you aren't going to break it just playing with it!

Take a screwdriver and move the weights out to see how the push the advance head around the shaft.
See how the springs return the weights to the inboard or retracted positions.

Remember, the reluctor is attached to the same advance head the rotor is, so if that advance head is rotated around the shaft, it triggers the ignition sooner! That's how the advance works!

Lighter springs allow the weights to move the advance head sooner in the RPM range and give you more 'Zip' when you are taking off...

While you are seeing how this works,
Also notice the limiter that stops the advance head from moving any farther in the advance head slot marked '13R'...

Here is a picture of that same shaft/advance head out of the distributor,



Lighter springs will make your Centrifugal advance 'Come In' sooner in the RPM range (Start at lower RPM) so you get the 'Zip' the HEI/clone guys talk about... It's just faster timing curve, and now you know EXACTLY how to change things and test for results!

Here is an aftermarket spring kit from Mr. Gasket.
NOTE THE PART NUMBER... I don't want to answer that question 20 times!
It's on the package, READ IT!




REMEMBER! It's the TOTAL SPRING WEIGHT!
YOU DO NOT NEED TO USE THE SAME SPRINGS ON BOTH SIDES!

You can use a Medium and a Light,
You can use two Mediums,
You can use a Heavy and Light,
What ever works for you the best without making the engine detonate is just fine!
..........................
..........................

See the limiter centered in the '13R' advance slot with the springs off?
Notice the '18R' advance slot on the bottom side of the advance head?

Yup! That's right! Motorcraft build you 5 more degrees of centrifugal advance right into your advance head!
All you have to do is pull it up and flip it around, hook the springs back up!

*IF* You want to add more advance to the advance head,
I suggest you expend all the advance you can get elsewhere.


Adjust for fast and full Vacuum advance, and use 'Light' springs in the centrifugal advance, testing fully for any signs of detonation before doing this.
If you have ANY SIGNS OF DETONATION, then this will only worsen that problem!

If you don't have any signs of detonation after you have opened up both the vacuum and springs, then you may want to try this...

You should also know that you are going to need to pull the distributor if you flip the advance head to the larger advance slot.
Since the rotor is attached directly to the advance head, your rotor will be 180 out of sync with your engine unless you pull the distributor up and spin the shaft back around 180 so the rotor is pointing at #1 plug wire terminal again!
Now, to pull that advance head up, you are going to need to remove the advance head retaining clip...
And it can be a REAL PECKER to get in and out!

It's found under the oiling felt at the top of the advance head, right under the rotor.
Lift the felt, remove some of the crud, and you will see two little wire 'Tails' sticking up....

Spread and lift, and you will get this out of the advance head...



This thing is VERY SMALL and VERY EASY TO LOOSE,
Virtually Impossible to replace also...
SO DON'T LOOSE IT!
(Magnets are your friends! I stick all those little parts to a big honkin' magnet!)

Spread the tails, lift up on the advance head and the entire mess will come up in your hands.

While it's off, don't forget to use some good quality synthetic grease on the distributor shaft... You will find grease grooves on the shaft, clean them out and put in fresh grease!

Flip the advance head around, and put it right back on, AND DON'T LOOSE THE CLIP!
(I know I said that before, but you can't say it enough!)

Put the springs back on and you are ready to put the rotor on and pull/flip the distributor 180 so the rotor lines up with the #1 plug wire terminal on the cap again.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------

Let's see, anything I leave out?...

Here is a shot of the advance head removed from the shaft,



Here is a shot of the shaft without the advance head on it,



And another angle of the same shaft, Look for the grease/lubrication grooves in the shaft....



And one of the stock springs... Almost ALL stock distributors will have 'Heavy/Heavy' or 'Heavy/Medium' springs, so going to even 'Medium/Light' is a HUGE difference in when the centrifugal advance comes 'IN'...



------------------------------------

I almost forgot,
Every civilized distributor gear in the world has a 'Divot' in the gear to denote what direction the rotor should face....
Except for Motorcraft since the advance head/rotor can be flipped...

SO, I suggest you make your own 'Divot' when you get the advance head on the way you want it...



Remember, the 'Divot' needs to face the same direction as the ROTOR NOSE to be effective as a rebuilding guide later!
This isn't necessary or recommended if you aren't flipping the advance head, but if you DO flip the advance head, you are going to be pulling the distributor anyway, so why not make things right!

You don't have to drill a hole, in fact, just enough to make a clear mark on the gear is plenty!

Don't forget to make notes in your note book about what advance slot you used, what springs you used, and what the results were when you check things on the timing tape!

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Last edited by JeepHammer; 08-16-2008 at 10:57 PM.
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post #7 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 10:17 PM
Fjguercio
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Here is nice way to do your wire hook up and a good way to mount the Ford E Coil.

I have a few good hints for those that want to install / hang this Ford E Coil on the JEEP 258 or 232. I used a 5x5" approx .025 thick sheet metal as a sub bracket. Drill 4 or 5 holes to match the E coil bracket holes. Mount E coil low & centered on this sheet metal sub plate. I used 3/16 x1/4" steel rivets to join the brakets together. This assembly will hang from the Jeep I6, 258, stock coil mount holes in the block. I drilled two 3/8" holes one at 2 oclock on the dial from the top/right corner of E coil connector. Drill the 3/8" hole so the head of the stock coil bolt clears the connector insertion path. The second 3/8 hole will be 2.5" to the left of the first hole. This is a tight fit and recommend you hand fit the adapter plate to block holes, elongate 3/8" holes if necessary. Paint both brackets with engine paint and let dry. The 2 BOLTS from the stock coil will hold new coil in place.

If you take the E Coil connector it makes electrical hook up easier. I crimped ring terminals to the E coil flying leads and inserted them into the Faston Connectors. This connects the E Coil to Jeep without damage to the Jeep Harness Coil Connections. In addition if on trail ride and Ford E Coil Fails you can reinstall Jeep Coil with nothing more that a knife to cut the heatshrink off and a wrench to remove coil bracket. Solder two Ring Terminal the same width as JEEP OIL Filled Coil connection tab. One for the green gound and one for the red hot on the used connector. The ring terminals will slide into the Jeep Stock Wire Faston Connectors that mate to the Jeep Stock Coil Tabs.

The Jeep Connectors can be extracted from the plastic c clip mounted on the stock coil, use a small screwdriver carefully. I also put a small amount of dielectric grease on the female faston/ring terminal combination and covered with heat shrink. Use the E Coil connector and flying leads as an extention of the Jeep Coil harnes... DO NOT REMOVE THE JEEP CONNECTORS. The E Coil Connector also has a second Red wire for the Capacitor with BOX type terminal. I put heat shrink over this Box Terminal and doubled over. I have a TAC installed on my Jeep Coil Harness +. It would also be possible to add TAC to the second Red wire in the E Coil Connector. I saved this wire in case the CAPACITOR was need for radio noise reduction. Cover the harness addition with split harness tubing and a tie wrap or two.

When using this stock coil location, the coil plug wire will be the correct length. This Ford E Coil assembly will just clear the oil dipstick and dissy. No additional holes are needed to mount this upgrade

Keep the original Jeep Coil and C clip as spare and always good to keep the OEM stuff. You will also need to plan ahead to have a coil plug wire that will mate to the old coil and new style cap.

I tried to keep the JEEP HARNESS whole using the ring terminals to mate to the stock .250" faston connectors from coil. The BEST way to do this would to be solder the E Coil wire/terminal combination to jeep harness. I do have a slight engine roll and it could be this connection. The alternative would be cut the coil terminals off with some wire(can be spliced back in) and solder in the flying leads from the E Coil connector. Some JEEPFORUM guys will like the ring/faston combination to keep the Jeep Original, others for reliability may want to solder in.

AFTER Changing the Coil, Cap, Rotar, Plug Wires from the BRAND NEW stock style Cap, Rotar, Plug Wires and the stock coil mileage was improved 2.3 mpg. I have a new rebuilt engine and got 15.2mpg last wk and after this change mileage inproved to 17.5 mpg. I was traveling at 70 mph and both times had a hour stop or more so engine cooled off. Temps in single digits. I did NOT adjust the timing or carb after this change. I have a slight engine roll and does not start as well. Next warm spell will try to get tuned in.





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post #8 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 10:27 PM
JackN77CJ7
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My goodness JeepHammer! That is a PILE of info. I will have to reread that after I get some sleep. Thank you tons for all of you help to all of us!
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post #9 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 10:58 PM
JeepHammer
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.
Now, SOME OF YOU will have advance heads from 'Smog' or 'Computer' engines...
They usually have between 5 & 8 degrees total advance in the slots...

Meaning where this 'Small' slot shows '13R', and the 'Large' slot shows '18R',



A 'Smog' or 'Computer' version of the advance head will show only '5.25R' & '7.75R' or something like it...
Very small advance numbers that don't give much performance.

The reason is the 'Computer' took care of the RPM related timing, so there was no need for the distributor to have any centrifugal advance except for 'Limp Home' advance in case the computer quite working...

You guys that have done 'John Nutter Bypass' wiring are probably victims of this, and anyone that purchased a 'Replacement' distributor for an I-6 engine might be a victim of this also...

Now that the computer is out of the timing 'Loop', you should probably think about getting some centrifugal timing to that ignition!

The above instructions show/tell you how to strip the distributor down to see if you are working with a problem advance head,
And show you what a proper advance head should look like...
And how to change it if nessary!

Remember, if you are changing one out, make sure you know what way the rotor is pointing before you remove the old one,
And get the replacment in pointing the same way!

This will save you from having to 'Pull & Flip' the distributor, and it gives you the lower end of the base line to start from so you can 'Tune Up' to your potential,
Instead of trying to fix problems from too much advance all at once!

If any of you have EXTRA distributors, I-6 or V-8 keep them for parts if you can!
If you turn one in for 'Core' at the parts store, never send it in with the springs, advance head clip or advance head in place! Rob that stuff before you turn it in!
It's worth it's weight in gold when you need it!

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Last edited by JeepHammer; 08-16-2008 at 11:10 PM.
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post #10 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 11:11 PM
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jksull View Post
So don't leave us hanging
Is that enough to digest or do you want more?....

(Be careful what you ask for because you just might get it!)

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post #11 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 11:23 PM
Fjguercio
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1978 CJ7 
 
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My Neighbors time light has a digital display for rpm and advance. I am going to ck and curve my distributor. The fancy time light with advance indication along with rpm's can take the place of the time tape... Correct??

I want to verify my distributor is set up correctly, have purchased the Mr Gasket spring set.

After that is all done installing the CDI Ignition...... oh boy.
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post #12 of 38 Old 08-16-2008, 11:52 PM
JeepHammer
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1973 CJ5 
 
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Location: South West Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjguercio View Post
My Neighbors time light has a digital display for rpm and advance. I am going to ck and curve my distributor. The fancy time light with advance indication along with rpm's can take the place of the time tape... Correct??

I want to verify my distributor is set up correctly, have purchased the Mr Gasket spring set.

After that is all done installing the CDI Ignition...... oh boy.
Correct, if it has a 6 cylinder setting...
Most of the 'Advance' timing lights work OK with V-8 engines, but some of them don't even work correctly with V-8's...
(Read 'Cheap China Junk')

So you will just have to try it, and if it gives TRUE advance (compare it against your balancer at first to see if they read about the same)
And it agrees with your tach, then you are in tall cotton!

If not Fred, you are back to using a tape with the rest of us mere mortals!

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post #13 of 38 Old 08-17-2008, 07:45 AM
sgtbookie
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2005 LJ Wrangler 
 
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JH, would I see any great difference if I swapped out my "smogged" advance head with the 13R and 18R versions found in the '79 distributor? Is it possible to just buy the advance head, or I am going junkyarding?


2005 LJ Rubicon Sahara #380
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post #14 of 38 Old 08-17-2008, 08:06 AM
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Could an administrator please sticky this?
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post #15 of 38 Old 08-17-2008, 08:47 AM
jksull
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1985 CJ7 
 
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Lots of Info

Thanks

I have a engine that I thinks runs very good.
However I like to tinker a bit.

Your vacuume advance controls timing at part throtle down the hiway.

Mechanical controls the timing at high RPM and WOT.

From experiance,

How much timming can a street engine take.

Where will ping Knock detonation begin.

Could you give some base line numbers.

Would you need to install a vacuume gauge and run the engine down the hwy to see what vacume you have in different conditions.
Could you touch on which advance system I need to look at.

1. ( WOT passing in third gear )
2. ( Part throttle 55 60 mph )
3. ( Part throttle 55 60 not gearing down to pull hills )

When I have all of these #s vacuume readings at different RPMs at differant condtions.

When I did the up grade, I checked the timing,
The mechanical was initial + 5 at I dont rember exactly but around 1800 - 2000 RPM
The vacuume would pull it off the scale in the same RPM range.

So If I need to add 3 deg across the board would I do the mechanical stop change.
I will stop here I am sure you could explain it easier than I could ask
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