Team Rush ..Fail... - JeepForum.com
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 13 Old 05-22-2011, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
Team Rush ..Fail...

Hi I been on going to this site a awhile looking for tech advice and most of the time I find what I need, Hence the low post count. But now I'm absolutely stumped. Sorry for being a bit lengthy but I feel Better giving every detail I can.
I have a 76 cj5 I have decided to upgrade to the motorcraft distributor from the points system the PO had installed.
So I replaced the distributor, used the taller larger cap, cap adapter, and rotor, new motorcraft plug wires, new plugs, and 30 dollar module from the parts monkey.

I wired everything according to this:

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...uraspark01.gif

Started it up, set timing to 8 BTDC, seemed to idle and rev nicely, drove around for 15 min before I noticed it running rougher, not idling and backfiring. I barely made it home. Checked my wiring and double checked it. Looked at the Chiltons wiring diagram and saw a difference in schematics.

The diagram I used shows the ignition source going to the ICM on the opposite side of the resistor getting full 12vdc. According to Chiltons it's on the Voltage drop side. Being a 76, these no resistor wire, the PO had installed a ballet resistor, So I checked that and replaced with standard RU4. Rewired the ICM so it receives the voltage drop. (My voltage drop now measures about 9 to 7VDC).

Still no go.

So I figure I fried the ICM, 30 bucks later, New ICM installed. It starts up and runs maybe 5 minutes longer before It starts up with roughness, poor idling, and backfiring. Yeah, yeah, I shouldn't have bought the cheapo ICMs. So at this point I decide to Just do a Stealth HEI install.

Next morning I just decide to fire it up with the clone Duraspark ICM still installed. It fires up no problems, no hesitation. Runs for about 20 mins and dies. Hmmmm......

I go ahead with the Stealth HEI module, gut the first ICM i bought, bought a Hei module for a 1980 c10 with straight 6, and wire it according to this:

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/jeep/HEI01.html

I couldn't even get it to start up. I messed around the Ignition Run wiring with wiring a dropped 12vdc from the resistor to B, a full 12VDC to B, the coil with dropped 12V, the coil with 12v, somehow in the different combinations it fired up and revved good but would not idle for anything.

I went back checking timing and making sure the Distributor was installed correctly and would bet my first born that it is. I checked Connections, I checked other Stealth HEI diagrams, and nothing I looked at seemed to jump out at me or be significantly different.

So Finally at this point I installed the old points ignition system back in and She fires right up first try and runs just like before.

Now I thinking of looking at a few things
-Adding more grounds ( i.e. between Distributor and module.)
-Increasing my wire gauges, currently everything is wired together with 16 and 14 gauge.
-I read something about swapping orange and purple in the HEI module, but thread I read this in didn't elaborate more.
-New coil? Currently my coil is a 76 replacement coil. about 2 years old. Do I need to go to a 78 or later?

If I can get the HEI module to work, great. I don't see the point in going to a MSD module right now if I can't even get the HEI working properly.

(Although, what I've spent in modules, I should've just went straight for the MSD.)

I read every page of the "Definitive Team rush upgrade" about three times, read every related thread, Junk yard genius page, etc.

I'm at wits end.

dirtrail is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 05:25 AM
GAT72991
Registered User
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 252
Hmmmm..weird. Ignition is not my strongpoint, i teamrushed my YJ and i was good, BUT...here shortly, i guarantee you Jeephammer will chime in if he sees this thread and solve your problem. That man is a freakin jeep god
GAT72991 is offline  
post #3 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 05:41 AM
Mike Romain
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Off the Grid in Chester Grant
Posts: 18,083
The main ground for the ignition is the hold down foot on the distributor unless you add a dedicated ground to the black wire so you need to be sure this is clean and rust free. The ignition module does get it's power before the resistor on the CJ.

I would be maybe thinking a points coil might not be right for electronics, but don't know for sure. Your symptoms imply heat is getting to something.

I have seen more "wells" brand ignition modules act like you describe or be just plain dead out of the box than I have seen work so if that is what you are buying.... One gent spent close to 3K on replacing everything several times over and all it was was crap Wells modules.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
Mike Romain is offline  
 
post #4 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 06:17 AM
BioTex
Registered User
 
BioTex's Avatar
1979 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Alpine, Tx.
Posts: 3,194
I will have to agree with Mike on this one. I believe the points coil is the problem, and it is frying your modules. I have a stash of OEM modules, so have never had to deal with the clones, but I do hear that they are crap.

As for not getting the stealth HEI module to work, can you upload a picture of what you have, with all the terminals labeled to where they go?

Currently:
79 CJ7 "CJ Express" 4.2L, NV4500, D44 rear
69 800 with SBC, SM465, NP205, 14BT
BioTex is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 07:07 AM
JeepHammer
Web Wheeler
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 11,194
I see a couple of things I would do differently...

First off,
I would supply the module with full 12 volts, not resisted current.
A resistor in the feed line to the module will cook the module (Under power it).
The resistor needs to be in the 'Run' circuit of the IGNITION COIL to keep the switching transistor alive in the cheap modules.

Secondly,
I would go with a coil for an electronic ignition.
Some of the breaker points coils will work, but they are HARD on modules.

Third,
CHECK YOUR GROUNDS!
If the coil gets hot, you probably don't have a sufficient ground to the engine heads and the coil isn't able to discharge fully through the plugs.
All coils get warm when they are working,
But if you can't keep your fingers on the coil, you have a ground issue at the heads.

While you are grounding the heads, run that ground wire over to the 'Black' wire to the module so the module has a dedicated ground also.
The module DOES NOT ground through it's case, you MUST add a solid ground wire to the module or it will overheat.

I normally run a single 12 Ga. ground wire from battery cable to head, then over to module and that is usually enough.

Fourth,
MAKE SURE THE 'WHITE' wire to the module IS NOT getting powered up during operation!
(Not applicable with HEI module)
The DuraSpark has TWO ignition circuits,
The 'White' wire is the 'Retarded' circuit, retards timing signal around 8 degrees so the engine starts easier,
And when you return the key switch to 'Run' position the 'Red' wire takes over and powers the module at 'Straight Up' timing,
That white wire should be 'Dead' or 'Cold' when the ignition switch is in the 'Run' position or you WILL kill the module in just a few minutes since you are trying to double fire the ignition and overworks the ignition module.

Fifth...
Check your resistor size.
The correct value to keep that DuraSpark module alive is 1.35 Ohms or greater.
Some coils have less internal resistance, so you have to go with a 1.5 Ohm resistor,
But generally a 1.35 Ohm resistor works with the 'Ford' type replacment coils.

Sixth,
If you use a GM HEI style module, you should use an 'E-core' type ignition coil.
The HEI modules are designed to work with the E-core coils (Either the GM or Ford style from the late 80's) and you DO NOT need a resistor of any kind.

The GM HEI style module should NEVER have a resistor in it's supply line!
A resistor will keep that module from firing at all, or it will so seriously under power the module it will overheat and die VERY quickly.

Since Jeep/Ford runs a full 12 volts to the module, it's not an issue when changing a DuraSpark over to a hybrid Motorcraft distributor/HEI style module,
But if you have a resistor in the line now, you need to take it out before using an HEI style module.

Anyway, hope this helps...

REMEMBER,
'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JeepHammer is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
I'm starting to think this could be heat related. Will heat affect a coil's operation/output? This coil seems to test out and work good with the points ignition.

Mike, I thought the Duraspark modules had to run on the stepped down voltage otherwise they eventually burn up? I wired the Duraspark ICM's both ways with no difference in the outcome. The HEI module does receive full 12vdc, correct?

I'll have wait till this evening or so before I get a picture of my HEI setup.
dirtrail is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 07:33 AM
Mike Romain
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Off the Grid in Chester Grant
Posts: 18,083
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtrail View Post
I'm starting to think this could be heat related. Will heat affect a coil's operation/output? This coil seems to test out and work good with the points ignition.
Yes, heat is an issue for them.
Quote:
Mike, I thought the Duraspark modules had to run on the stepped down voltage otherwise they eventually burn up?
No the coil needs the step down or it will pop the module with too much draw, the module runs on full power. It gets it's power from the crimp connection 'before' the resistor wire on the newer engines.[/QUOTE]


Quote:
I wired the Duraspark ICM's both ways with no difference in the outcome. The HEI module does receive full 12vdc, correct?

I'll have wait till this evening or so before I get a picture of my HEI setup.
Yup, as Jeephammer mentions, HEI gets full power.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG AT's, 'glass nose to tail in '00, 'New' frame,wires and plumbing in '09. Carter BBD Carbed 4.0 HO in '10.
89 YJ Renegade. BBD Carbed 4.0 HO. Locked front and rear with 33x9.5 BFG AT's
Some Canadian Bush Jeep Runs and Build Photos:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(10 new albums added Sept 16/10)
Mike Romain is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
Awesome, thanks for the replys guys.
I've checked the resistor, and it's reading 2.3 ohms according to my ohmmeter.
Changing the coil, I'll definitely do. And wiring the module back with 12vdc going to it along with getting good solid grounds between the battery, head, and module.

Jeephammer, I'm pretty sure of the white wire not receiving any power when running because I remember checking voltage there while it was running and it was 0. I have that wired to S on the solenoid.

Again thanks for the advise. I'll post back when I have more progress.
dirtrail is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 09:34 AM
JeepHammer
Web Wheeler
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 11,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtrail View Post
I'm starting to think this could be heat related. Will heat affect a coil's operation/output? This coil seems to test out and work good with the points ignition.
I'm not Mike, and he gives good answers.

If the ignition coil has too much or too little resistance it will effect the module switching transistor since everything that goes through the coil also goes through the module switching transistor, which is about 3 amps average.

If you feed the switching transistor too much current, it will overheat and die.
The rest of the module circuit will be fine, but the switching transistor will burn up, killing the module for use.

Breaker points don't care how much current you put through them.
Too much current, they just wear faster, but they are more robust in the beginning, but burn up faster if you give them too much current... The reason for the resistor in the circuit in the first place.

Quote:
Mike, I thought the Duraspark modules had to run on the stepped down voltage otherwise they eventually burn up?
Only on the coil circuit.
The rest of the module needs a full 12 volts to operate correctly,
And if the running voltage drops below about 9 or 10 volts, the DuraSpark module won't work at all.

Quote:
I wired the Duraspark ICM's both ways with no difference in the outcome. The HEI module does receive full 12vdc, correct?
Both modules use full 12 volts to their feeds,
But the coil circuit has to be resisted for the DuraSpark clones, cheap transistors from 'China' or where ever won't take the extra current.

Quote:
I'll have wait till this evening or so before I get a picture of my HEI setup.
Check to make sure your 'White' wire isn't powered up during 'Run' position with the DuraSpark module.

The HEI clones don't have a retarded 'Start' circuit, so it doesn't matter if the 'White' wire is powered or not while it's running.

REMEMBER,
'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JeepHammer is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 09:45 AM
JeepHammer
Web Wheeler
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South West Indiana
Posts: 11,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtrail View Post
Awesome, thanks for the replys guys.
I've checked the resistor, and it's reading 2.3 ohms according to my ohmmeter.
Changing the coil, I'll definitely do. And wiring the module back with 12vdc going to it along with getting good solid grounds between the battery, head, and module.

Jeephammer, I'm pretty sure of the white wire not receiving any power when running because I remember checking voltage there while it was running and it was 0. I have that wired to S on the solenoid.
Should be wired to the 'I' or Ignition terminal on the starter relay, NOT the 'S' or 'Start' terminal.
When it's wired to the 'I' terminal, the power cuts off to the 'White' wire when the starter relay kicks out as the key switch rolls back to 'Run' position.

If the coil is VERY hot to the touch (Can't keep your fingers on it) then you have a bad coil or bad ground to the heads.

If I change a coil, chances are it was a head grounding issue or bad coil wire that caused the coil to fail...
So I'd check resistance on the coil wire, add a ground to the heads, and replace the coil with something more modern that works better with your new electronic ignition.
($5 salvage yard E-core coil from late 80's GM or Ford)

That might mean a new coil wire, but it's worth the cost to go with the newer style coil.

90% of the time when the 'Stealth HEI' (GM Style module) doesn't work, it's because the module isn't getting power when cranking ('I' terminal on starter relay to 'B' terminal on the module)
And the 'Run' circuit hooks up to that 'B' terminal on the module also.

YOU MUST add the 'I' terminal to 'B' terminal wire so the GM module gets power when cranking or the ignition will never fire when cranking...

Now remember, some of the '74 to '77 Jeeps didn't use a starter relay with an 'I' terminal on them, so make sure you have one before you do the HEI module again...

If you have a '74-'77, the ignition circuit often powers up the primary ignition circuit during cranking,
So test for that, see if you have power feeding the 'B' module terminal during cranking with the HEI module.
If you do have power during cranking,
Make sure the COIL is getting power during cranking!
Some times it doesn't...

-------------------------------------

You didn't fill out your profile, or I'm too dumb to read it,
So where do you live?
If you are close enough, Maybe I can help you get this thing running...

REMEMBER,
'Free' internet information is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it!
LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

LINK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JeepHammer is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
Jeephammer, Where would be the best spot to ground on the head?

Ahh never mind found it:

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/ba...-cable-558678/
dirtrail is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 05-23-2011, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
Well, went to oreilly's and found a BWD canister coil for a 79, and low and behold right on it it says "Use with electronic ignition" it also has printed on it "12V".

But I assume I still wire this up with the stepped down voltage from the resistor?

Also got some 12 gauge wire for adding dedicated grounds. I don't know when I'll get to put this all together, probably Thurs. or Fri. most definitely this weekend. I'll post results then.
dirtrail is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 05-24-2011, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
dirtrail
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Alamos
Posts: 18
SUCCESS!!!YES!!!!!

I put it all together this evening with the new grounds, and 79 distrubutor and she fired right up, I set timing at 8 BTDC and took her for a spin. All I can say is WOW. I can go up inclines in forth gear, and take turn while still in third.!!!

I'm still using the duraspark module and will probably mess with the HEI Mod. this weekend. I have 12VDC going straight to the module also.

Thanks Jeephammer, Mike R., BioTex and everyone else!!
dirtrail is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Jeep Forums Replies Last Post
team rush kdjc1912 Jeep CJ Forum 7 12-26-2010 09:43 PM
Team rush ? phil77 Jeep CJ Forum 6 08-27-2010 06:20 AM
team rush jcooley7 Jeep CJ Forum 1 08-04-2008 01:46 PM
What is team rush kit? iownaniroc Jeep CJ Forum 1 07-03-2008 02:18 AM
Team Rush ????'s NWA_CJ7 Jeep CJ Forum 19 04-16-2008 09:52 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome