T18 pops out of second HELP - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 22 Old 10-13-2021, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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T18 pops out of second HELP

Today I had a much more serious issue with my Jeep. If you don't already know, it's a 1977 CJ5. I swapped out the T150 for a Ford T18 granny low in 2019. I have the Dana 20 so back then I bought the adapter plate & mainshaft kit. I rebuilt it with new parts (bearings, synchros, seals) & up until today it worked flawlessly with absolutely no grinding. Here is my dilemma:

At a stoplight today, I accelerated in second gear & it popped out. I shifted back in, with a little grinding, & was able to park safely at a resturant to shut it off. I went to restart with trans in neutral & the jeep lunged forward. Weird. Was finally able to back out of the spot & had my brother drive it to my shop while I drove his truck. He experienced the same; 2nd gear kept popping out upon acceleration unless he would hold the shifter. I made it back to the shop, but something is seriously wrong. I took the top cover off with it still in neutral. Attached is a picture of the guts. As you can see, the gears look immaculate, no pitting, no rust, fluid level is correct & no metal flake. I jacked up the rear axle to spin the driveshaft & second gear slid up and back down, popping up on the shaft totally free of where it SHOULD be. I'm gonna look back at my diagrams, but can anyone offer any insight? Going to stick a magnet in the bottom to fish around for parts that may have come out that hold second gear down. This sucks because this weekend is Jeeptoberfest here in Ocala, FL, and I spent a nonrefundable registration fee. I wait all year long for this event just to have this happen. What luck 😕 ANY help is appreciated, please don't treat me like I'm stupid because I am not. Use whatever descriptive terms you want -chances are I will understand them. Thanks.

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post #2 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 02:12 AM
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Shouldn't the 2nd gear synchro ring be up against the 2nd gear synchro cone? I don't see it.
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post #3 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 06:40 AM
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I found this image, and it does appear you are missing a synchro ring where 80cj said.

Matt
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post #4 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies yall. I stuck a magnet down in and pulled out a snap ring in 3 pieces. No other metal flake came out, which is a good sign. This snap ring is supposed to be coupled with a thrust washer, which appeared to be missing from the start, and keeps pressure on the second gear. Snap ring #60 in the diagrams & part # 4745D. As far as the synchro, it is there but for some reason it was sucked into the first gear/slider. Looks to be undamaged but going to tear the whole thing apart and find the root cause. Oh how I wish I could post videos to this forum.
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post #5 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 10:09 AM
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The syncros being brass wont come out with the magnet.
They could still be lying down in the bottom.

Can you take the PTO plate off and see down in the bottom??
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I drive a Prius to save money and buy more Jeep Parts....
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Well for anyone interested, I have figured out exactly what happened. Read carefully - important pictures attached.
After looking at the diagrams more & watching some YT videos, I realized my mainshaft is one of the two types (not regarding length) that were installed in Ford T18s. Older design used a snap ring & thrust washer to keep 2nd gear on. The mainshaft I have from AdvanceAdapters is all one peice with the thrust bearing surface for 2nd gear already machined into the shaft ("one" with the shaft). This means there was never a thrust washer or snap ring in that location in my specific setup. I then realized that the "clutch hub" that first gear slides on had slid ALL the way rearward touching the bearing. I used a screwdriver to pry it forward with ease and there you have it, the spot where the snap ring goes. So essentially all that happened was the snap ring shattered in 3 pieces and allowed the clutch hub to slide rearward, almost totally removing the ability to shift into second (from being free & under no pressure). The clutch hub is retained by two snap rings/c-clips (part #4745D), one in front and one behind it. I hope this makes sense to yall. Open the pictures and you will understand better. Now onto finding a way to install a new snap ring with everything still in the Jeep (probably not possible), and that's if I can even buy one from a local shop.
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post #7 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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I think God was on my side LOL. There was no other damage from it, but I still might have to drop the drivetrain to put this $1 snap ring in place. Hardened spring steel can suck it.
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post #8 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 01:21 PM
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Ah, so the syncro is still there, just hiding because of all the play.

You should go buy a lotto ticket cause it seems you are lucky that ring didn't end up in any of the gears.


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post #9 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 02:40 PM
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Are you sure the picture you posted is the same type of transmission. It looks like there is an extra gear up against the case on the right side of the picture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
I found this image, and it does appear you are missing a synchro ring where 80cj said.

Matt
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post #10 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneTower View Post
Are you sure the picture you posted is the same type of transmission. It looks like there is an extra gear up against the case on the right side of the picture.
I think that gear is actually the synchro clutch hub that was allowed to slip back against the right side(actually , the back) of the case when the snap ring came off.
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post #11 of 22 Old 10-14-2021, 11:08 PM
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Don't forget to double check your shift forks. All the "holding it in gear" with the shifter may have damaged the 2nd gear fork face.

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post #12 of 22 Old 10-15-2021, 02:28 AM
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Note the condition of the OP's first gear teeth and the same gear on the picture that Matt posted. Those gear teeth really get chewed up if you don't allow the trans to stop spinning when shifting into first or reverse.
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post #13 of 22 Old 10-15-2021, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80cj View Post
Note the condition of the OP's first gear teeth and the same gear on the picture that Matt posted. Those gear teeth really get chewed up if you don't allow the trans to stop spinning when shifting into first or reverse.
I noticed that too. It's one of the reasons why I went with the T19 instead of the T18..

I use my 1st gear from every stop, so it had to be synchronized.

Matt


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post #14 of 22 Old 10-15-2021, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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I am indeed one lucky guy. These forums are a true blessing too, so thank you all. To follow up, 80CJ is correct, what looks like a gear towards the back of the transmission case is actually the second gear/first gear clutch hub. The snap ring broke, granting that clutch hub permission to slide back. As far as I can tell the rear bearing is okay, and the synchro is also in one piece. That big first gear is also only 3 years old and I baby it. I only shift into first/reverse when I'm at a dead stop. I drove 1 hour south of me to Tavares, FL from Ocala and picked up *the only* SP18-50A Ford T18 small parts kit I could find. Very nice people at Astro Transmission Parts Warehouse. I bought it for $28. Going to replace it today and get back up and running but likely gonna have to pull the entire trans/tcase unfortunately. On a side note, real question: is starting off in second gear everytime bad? I was under the impression that's what people do when DDing these unsynchronized first gear T18s. Thanks again all.
Edit: Shift forks got saved too AND plastic slider pieces are still attached and in good condition.
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post #15 of 22 Old 10-15-2021, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepinGeo View Post
I am indeed one lucky guy. These forums are a true blessing too, so thank you all. To follow up, 80CJ is correct, what looks like a gear towards the back of the transmission case is actually the second gear/first gear clutch hub. The snap ring broke, granting that clutch hub permission to slide back. As far as I can tell the rear bearing is okay, and the synchro is also in one piece. That big first gear is also only 3 years old and I baby it. I only shift into first/reverse when I'm at a dead stop. I drove 1 hour south of me to Tavares, FL from Ocala and picked up *the only* SP18-50A Ford T18 small parts kit I could find. Very nice people at Astro Transmission Parts Warehouse. I bought it for $28. Going to replace it today and get back up and running but likely gonna have to pull the entire trans/tcase unfortunately. On a side note, real question: is starting off in second gear everytime bad? I was under the impression that's what people do when DDing these unsynchronized first gear T18s. Thanks again all.
Edit: Shift forks got saved too AND plastic slider pieces are still attached and in good condition.
Actually, it's pretty much a normal thing to start off in 2nd. As they say, these granny low 4 speed are pretty much a 3 speed with a granny low.
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