Replacing alternator - Should I go for the 140 AMP model? - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
Colt44
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Replacing alternator - Should I go for the 140 AMP model?

My alternator is on the fritz. It's just a normal model and may even be the original one, who knows?

I'd like for the new one to have plenty of overhead; I have the MPFI conversion and a pretty decent stereo system with two amps for the front and rear speakers and another one coming with a subwoofer.

I'm not even sure what the current one (no pun intended, hah) is putting out, but I see that a number of output levels are available. Advance has a 140-AMP Powermaster and I'm thinking I might as well go for the gusto. Any reason not to?

Also, can someone enlighten me as to the difference between a standard alternator and one with air conditioning? Not that I'm planning to put A/C on my jeep anytime soon, but why would that matter?


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post #2 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 07:47 AM
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IMHO it's a good way to go in the event you ever add a winch or other high draw gear your infrastructure will already be started.

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post #3 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 08:14 AM
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If I remember correctly, the one with A/C spins in the opposite direction due to diferent belt setup (2 instead of 1).
As for the alternator goes, I would suggest you read this. Some of it you won't care about but it will teach you some things you don't really know. Alot of smart guys on here.

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/be...1/#post7724128

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post #4 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 08:22 AM
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Before I just jumped in with what I heard, and thought I remembered reading, I did a little research.
The Powermaster has 80 amps at idle, and 140 at highway speed. (I'm guessing 2000 rpm.

This is a link to there web site.
http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...ate_model.html

I'd do some more research before I bought.

Bill

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1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
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1979 J20
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post #5 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 08:31 AM
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Colt 44,
In my experience you should have a standard "GM Style" alternator. These alternators came from the factory in many different output levels for different vehicles. Best part is they all used the same housing. I went to my local alternator shop and they rebuilt my standard 100 Amp Jeep CJ unit with 140 Amp parts like came in Chevy pickup trucks of the same era. A total rebuild and upgraded output all for about $50... You might do some looking around...

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post #6 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt44 View Post
My alternator is on the fritz. It's just a normal model and may even be the original one, who knows?

I'd like for the new one to have plenty of overhead; I have the MPFI conversion and a pretty decent stereo system with two amps for the front and rear speakers and another one coming with a subwoofer.

I'm not even sure what the current one (no pun intended, hah) is putting out, but I see that a number of output levels are available. Advance has a 140-AMP Powermaster and I'm thinking I might as well go for the gusto. Any reason not to?

Also, can someone enlighten me as to the difference between a standard alternator and one with air conditioning? Not that I'm planning to put A/C on my jeep anytime soon, but why would that matter?
The 'High Amp' models are just guys on the aftermarket juggling the numbers to make them look stronger.

The 'Factory' rating is the 'Safe Maximum' rating,
While the aftermarket likes to quote the absolute maximum the unit will put out before it self destructs.

Since the rotors, field windings, rectifier, ect. are all the same sizes
(They can't 'Stretch' the case to make more room),
It's just a numbers game.

----------------

With fuel injection,
I would switch to a CS series alternator.
They have more output at low RPM which means more stable current to the fuel injection computer,
And CS has better rectifiers to keep voltage spikes down, voltage spikes are bad for computers.

You will need to use an adapter or a 75-150 Ohm resistor in the excite circuit, where your Delco now has 10-15 ohms.

NAPA has a wiring pigtail adapter so you don't have to cut into your harness, and there are CS units that will fit into your current brackets.

Alternators don't care what direction they spin.
Only the fan matters.

---------------

Now, I'm going to try to explain this...

You have a 'Fusible Link' between you alternator and battery.
Around 35-45 Amps, the fusible link will let go.

Since these vehicles have run 25 to 35 years with the factory fusible link,
Your vehicle has NEVER demanded more than the fusible link can handle,
So you have NEVER drawn more than 35-45 amps.

A 100+ amp alternator simply isn't needed.

I would find a Delco Remy CS series alternator with a reasonable factory output and install it with the adapter and not worry about what the 'Aftermarket' advertisements are saying what you *SHOULD* do...

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post #7 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzp20102
Colt 44,
In my experience you should have a standard "GM Style" alternator. These alternators came from the factory in many different output levels for different vehicles. Best part is they all used the same housing. I went to my local alternator shop and they rebuilt my standard 100 Amp Jeep CJ unit with 140 Amp parts like came in Chevy pickup trucks of the same era. A total rebuild and upgraded output all for about $50... You might do some looking around...
I'm not trying to start any argument. I was under the impression the standard CJ alternator was more like 40 to 60 amps. The rebuild shop in my city told me 94 amps was Max. There are exceptions of course. I looked at a rebuilt Cadillac unit, lots bigger and bolts up different. IIRC it was a little over a hundred amps.
I don't know at what engine rpm that was.

Bill

1957 WILLYS pickup,
1973 J 4000,
1978 CJ7 DD.
1979 CJ7 360, TH400/Quadratrac.
1979 J20
1980 CJ5 trail Jeep.
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post #8 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 09:38 AM
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I've always read 60 amps as well.

Jeephammer - Since these vehicles have run 25 to 35 years with the factory fusible link,
Your vehicle has NEVER demanded more than the fusible link can handle,
So you have NEVER drawn more than 35-45 amps.

Now this applies to the vehicles electrical system right? So if accessories were connected right to the battery with their own fuse, then instead of the fusible link being the "draw limiter" it now becomes the added circuits fuse that is the limiter, for that circuit. And as long as the voltage regulator can keep replenishing the batteries voltage there shouldn't be a problem even if the total demand of the vehicle and it's accessories exceeds the 35-45 limit of the fusible link. And if it cannot keep up, that's when a larger alt. would be of benefit.
In other words, as long as the vehicles system and fuse block are the sole source of power, your draw is limited to the fusible links rating. And the only way around that to benefit from a larger alternator is by connecting circuits directly to the battery. Then the battery size becomes the "limiter". Am I understanding correctly? (Electronics was never my strong suit!)

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post #9 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
The 'High Amp' models are just guys on the aftermarket juggling the numbers to make them look stronger.

The 'Factory' rating is the 'Safe Maximum' rating,
While the aftermarket likes to quote the absolute maximum the unit will put out before it self destructs.

Since the rotors, field windings, rectifier, ect. are all the same sizes
(They can't 'Stretch' the case to make more room),
It's just a numbers game.

----------------

With fuel injection,
I would switch to a CS series alternator.
They have more output at low RPM which means more stable current to the fuel injection computer,
And CS has better rectifiers to keep voltage spikes down, voltage spikes are bad for computers.

You will need to use an adapter or a 75-150 Ohm resistor in the excite circuit, where your Delco now has 10-15 ohms.

NAPA has a wiring pigtail adapter so you don't have to cut into your harness, and there are CS units that will fit into your current brackets.

Alternators don't care what direction they spin.
Only the fan matters.

---------------

Now, I'm going to try to explain this...

You have a 'Fusible Link' between you alternator and battery.
Around 35-45 Amps, the fusible link will let go.

Since these vehicles have run 25 to 35 years with the factory fusible link,
Your vehicle has NEVER demanded more than the fusible link can handle,
So you have NEVER drawn more than 35-45 amps.

A 100+ amp alternator simply isn't needed.

I would find a Delco Remy CS series alternator with a reasonable factory output and install it with the adapter and not worry about what the 'Aftermarket' advertisements are saying what you *SHOULD* do...
Sounds like good advice. Questions:

First, does NAPA carry the Delco Remy CS alternators?

Where would I get "an adapter or a 75-150 Ohm resistor" for the excite circuit? And once I get it, where does it go?

I assume the NAPA pigtail adapter is to mate the alternator to the existing plug that fits the present alternator?

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post #10 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 01:07 PM
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Common Delco alternators have three terminals.
A larger wire ring terminal in the back, that hooks to the battery via a fusible link at the starter relay battery cable terminal.

There are two smaller wires in a side plug.

The smaller of the two is the 'Excite' wire.
It's stiff, it's a resistor wire, depending on year 10-15 Ohm.
That's where the larger value resistor needs to go in place.

The larger of the two wires is the 'Sense' or 'Sample' wire.
It gets a sample of the battery voltage.
Most times it's looped around to the back terminal since that terminal has battery voltage.

The CS will have terminals marked 'P', 'L' 'I or F' 'S',
The 'S' will be the largest of the 4 terminals so it's easy to identify.
That is your 'Sense' or 'Sample' connection, connects to the back of the Alternator at the 'BAT' terminal.

CAN YOU SEE THE 'P L F S' ON TH E PLASTIC OF THIS ALTERNATOR PLUG CONNECTOR?



The 'L' (Lamp) terminal is the 'Excite' wire
(GM uses an 'Idiot' light on the dash, the correct term for that bulb is a 'Lamp')

The 'L' or 'Excite' terminal is always in the middle of the three smaller terminals.
If you look closely at the regulator collar where the plug inserts, the terminals will be marked.

Plugs run between $5 & $15 depending on where you get them,

-------------

The adapter that plugs into your old plug and into the new alternator ran $25 last time I got one from NAPA.
Can't remember the part number off the top of my head.
Plugs right into your old two wire plug and into the new alternator.

-------------------------

The resistor is available from Radio Shack,
75 to 150 Ohm, I usually go on the high size, around 100 or 125 Ohm just to make sure,
They come on cards of 5 for about $1.50

Radio Shack, 100 ohm 1/2W 5% Carbon Film Resistor pk/5
Model: 271-1108 | Catalog #: 271-1108 $1.19



-------------------------------------------------------

WHEN YOU ORDER ADAPTERS FROM NAPA, ORDER AHEAD!
They usually don't have them in stock, so you have to wait on them.

CS 144 Alternator with SQUARE PLUG ADAPTER, NAPA p/n ECH EC82




P/N Part Number: ECH EC80 DOES NOT have the resistor you need to keep the alternator alive, so don't let them give you this one unless you plan to add the little resistor yourself...

----------

CS 130 Alternator with OVAL PLUG,
Can't find the adapter part number or the adapter in NAPA book anymore.



-------------------------------

This is a CS 144 going on where a SI came off.
I'm showing the differences so you know what to expect.

CS 144 is a little larger than a 10-SI,
While a CS 130 is a little smaller.
Believe this or not, it's harder to use a SMALLER alternator than it is a slightly larger one...


SI Front frame centered over shaft if CS-144, The CS-144 will have a longer 'Threaded' ear.




CS-144 LEFT, SI RIGHT,
Mounting foot compairson, overall size, pulleys did interchange.




CS-144 LEFT, 12 SI RIGHT,
Comparing mounting holes, ect from the back.


[img]

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post #11 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
I've always read 60 amps as well.

Jeephammer - Since these vehicles have run 25 to 35 years with the factory fusible link,
Your vehicle has NEVER demanded more than the fusible link can handle,
So you have NEVER drawn more than 35-45 amps.

Now this applies to the vehicles electrical system right? So if accessories were connected right to the battery with their own fuse, then instead of the fusible link being the "draw limiter" it now becomes the added circuits fuse that is the limiter, for that circuit. And as long as the voltage regulator can keep replenishing the batteries voltage there shouldn't be a problem even if the total demand of the vehicle and it's accessories exceeds the 35-45 limit of the fusible link. And if it cannot keep up, that's when a larger alt. would be of benefit.
In other words, as long as the vehicles system and fuse block are the sole source of power, your draw is limited to the fusible links rating. And the only way around that to benefit from a larger alternator is by connecting circuits directly to the battery. Then the battery size becomes the "limiter". Am I understanding correctly? (Electronics was never my strong suit!)
No.

The alternator fusible link is between alternator and battery and passes EVERY ELECTRON YOUR ALTERNATOR IS COMMANDED TO PRODUCE FOR THE BATTERY AND VEHICLE OPERATION.

You attach to the battery, your 'Draw' is from the battery,
But the alternator has to keep up with the battery, so no matter where you 'Draw' from, it's all on the alternator to provide.

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post #12 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I'm confused - does the pigtail adapter incorporate the resistor, or will I need to splice that in myself?I can certainly solder in a resistor if I know which wire, but I'd prefer to have this in the form of an adapter, for a neater appearance, if nothing else. [ETA - Disregard this part, I see from re-reading your earlier post that the adapters are apparently available with or without the resistor.]

Also, where would I get a Delco-Remy alternator? Doesn't look like NAPA, AutoZone, Advance or O'Reilly carry Delco.
How would I ask for the equivalent of a CS series (i.e., better low-rpm performance) alteranator from, say, NAPA?

[ETA - I see that Advance sells Remy alternators, but only new ones. Is that = Delco Remy?]

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post #13 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 03:01 PM
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So then how is it possible to jump start another car? I'm sure it requires more then 35-45 amps to do that right. It would be no different then my example above of having a high draw accessory connected directly to the battery just as jumper cables would be, would it?

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post #14 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt44 View Post
Okay, I'm confused - does the pigtail adapter incorporate the resistor, or will I need to splice that in myself?I can certainly solder in a resistor if I know which wire, but I'd prefer to have this in the form of an adapter, for a neater appearance, if nothing else.

[ETA - Disregard this part, I see from re-reading your earlier post that the adapters are apparently available with or without the resistor.]

Also, where would I get a Delco-Remy alternator?
Doesn't look like NAPA, AutoZone, Advance or O'Reilly carry Delco.
How would I ask for the equivalent of a CS series (i.e., better low-rpm performance) alteranator from, say, NAPA?

[ETA - I see that Advance sells Remy alternators, but only new ones. Is that = Delco Remy?]
Virtually all 'Replacement' alternators for GM vehicles are CS series.
Once it's 'Remanufactured', they call them by the store name, 'Power King' or whatever.
It's still a Delco Remy, it's still a CS or SI Series,
Just like the 'Power Master' or what ever you see sold online as '200 AMPS' output.

About any alternator will FLASH to 200 Amps, but it's going to kill it's self doing it...
The 'Correct' rating would be what Delco rated it...
It can sustain that factory rated output for quite some time without issues.
Most times, if it's rated at 75 Amps, it will put out 75 Amps all day long without failing.

Look by APPLICATION.
Larger GM vehicles from the late 80 through the 90s will provide you with a large output alternator for your application.

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post #15 of 67 Old 01-19-2012, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Renegade82 View Post
So then how is it possible to jump start another car? I'm sure it requires more then 35-45 amps to do that right. It would be no different then my example above of having a high draw accessory connected directly to the battery just as jumper cables would be, would it?
Two things come to mind right now, and I'm hoping neither one of them is true...
AND YOU ARE HIJACKING A "HELP ME" THREAD BEFORE THE OP GETS RESOLUTION.

First off,
The 10 Ga. wire from alternator to battery won't carry 200 amps.
you would need a LARGE WELDING CABLE to handle 200 amps for even a short time.

Secondly, the fusible link will melt if you try to draw more than 35-45 amps from the alternator for any long duration of time.

Third, It's called a STORAGE BATTERY for a reason...

The Alternator makes a small amperage charge OVER TIME, which is STORED IN THE BATTERY.
The battery PRODUCES NOTHING,
It simply converts electrical energy into CHEMICAL ENERGY, So it can be STORED
(You can't store electrons, they are used or lost)

When your vehicle has a large demand, like cold starts, jump starting, running the winch, ect.
The BATTERY CONVERTS CHEMICAL ENERGY BACK TO ELECTRICAL ENERGY AND SUPPLIES THE LOAD.

When the load stops,
The alternator charges the battery back up over TIME at low amperage.

NOW,
You CAN NOT charge a battery quickly. if you try to hit a battery with 200 amps, it's going to get hot and explode in most cases.

Batteries MUCH PREFER their charge around 2 to 4 amps.
"Trickle" charging FULLY CHARGES THE BATTERY, while high amperage transfer only heats the battery up causing resistance and eventually battery failure.

---------------------------------

When you "JUMP START" someone,
You are NOT 'CHARGING' their battery with your 750 CCA battery.

YOU ARE TRANSFERRING AMPERAGE TO THE STARTING MOTOR WHEN YOU JUMP FROM GOOD BATTERY TO STARTER MOTOR.

You CAN leave the jumpers on a car a while, and YOUR ALTERNATOR will charge the other 'Dead' battery SLOWLY over time...
That usually has to be done when the other vehicle is REALLY dead,
Or when you have crappy cables that won't transfer enough amperage to turn the starter motor on the other vehicle DIRECTLY...

BATTERIES GIVE CURRENT QUICKLY, but take time and charge SLOWLY.
So you don't need a HUGE alternator to charge your batteries.

BATTERIES STORE A LOT OF ENERGY...
That's why you can flip on a bunch of lights, turn a starter motor, ect.
Alternators put out current SLOWLY so the battery can charge.

IF you look into the alternator/welder threads, you CAN make an alternator put out a lot of current really quickly,
Enough to weld from, which is way more than any battery can tolerate...
The alternator is REGULATED to give a charge COMPATIBLE with the battery and vehicle electronics.

That REGULATOR keeps the alternator from throwing too much current at the battery at one time, so you don't overheat the battery, burn up the electronics in the vehicle, ect.

SO!
Even if you get one of those 200 AMP 'SUPER DUPER' alternators of the internet,
Your VEHICLE is never going to demand more than about 35-40 Amps in it's life time during NORMAL operations.


If you ground out something, you might get a current spike,
If you install some big, stupid stereo or something with HUGE demands, you might break that 35-40 Amp limit...
But during NORMAL operations, it will work fine just like it has for the last 30 years or so.

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