Pinion Angle - JeepForum.com
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 Old 07-19-2018, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
Missouri_CJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Columbia
Posts: 5
Garage
Pinion Angle

Hi, I am building a CJ5. The previous owner put a 2-3in lift on the Jeep. This has made the pinion angle wrong. I was wondering what the best solution is to fix this. I doubt anyone is close enough to Mid-Missouri to come take a look, so I am reaching out to the forum. I bought 8* shims and were going to put those on tonight to see if that does the trick. I always thought the drive shaft had to be completely flat. If it is not pulling out of the slip yoke in the middle is it fine? Sorry for so many questions. Thank you for the help in advance! Pictures are always appreciated!

Missouri_CJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old 07-19-2018, 05:33 PM
NashvilleTJ
I miss the snow...
 
NashvilleTJ's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 4,193
Why do you believe the pinion angle is wrong? If it is a CJ5, you are running leaf springs and single u-joint shafts, correct?

Jeff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Build Thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Swing Away / Swing Down Tire Carrier:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NashvilleTJ is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 12:33 AM
BagusJeep
Web Wheeler
 
BagusJeep's Avatar
1981 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bali
Posts: 7,544
On a CJ5 the rear driveshaft is very short so you will have to solve this issue.

as stock the single joint sin each end required the axle pinion and transfer case output be parallel, not pointing at each other.

The change in angular velocity of each joint on each rotation was matched by the other joint, by phasing them opposite to each other they cancelled out and there was a smooth velocity.

If one of those joints is moving through a greater angle than the other, you have an overall change in angular velocity on each rotation, so the rear wheels start to bunny hop.

So the guide is to keep the pinion and output parallel within a few degrees. Putting on 8 degree shims with a stock shaft will make it worse.

This means the driveshaft has to angle down and that is a problem when you start to lift. The joints will not last long at 7 degrees angle or more and will bind around 12 degrees.

The solution is a CV joint that allows the pinion angle to be changed, so it can point at the transfer case output. This reduces the angles.

For a better explanation try Tom Woods driveshafts website.

BagusJeep lives in Bali.

1981 CJ7 258ci - Bagusjeep
1984 CJ7 258ci - Puthijeep
1981 J20 258ci - Gladys
1951 Willys CJ3A/MB/M38 - Little Willy
1995 Cherokee 4.0 - CHEROKEE
BagusJeep is online now  
 
post #4 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 06:17 AM
Turbos10
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Stephenville
Posts: 139
Completely agree with the CV shaft. You will then point the pinion at the rear of the transmission and have zero angle at the axle joint. Mine had an axle swap by the PO who did not understand angles and mounted it as if it was a single joint shaft. It vibrated like crazy. To fix it I cut the spring perches loose from the axle, rotated the axle to where I wanted it, and welded them back down. Smooth as silk at 70mph now.

1986 CJ7, 4.6 Stroker, T176, D300, 14Bolt/Dana60
CJ2 Buggy, L67, 700R4, 3.8 Atlas, D60s
Turbos10 is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 06:40 AM
jp360cj
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,197
As said, with a single cardan driveshaft (1 U joint at each end) you want the tcase output and pinion to be parallel. Get an angle finder, and measure the tcase output angle, pinion angle, and driveshaft angle. We can help you dial it in from there. Tom Woods website has good instructions and info too (www.4xshaft.com).

I use an angle finder like this one:


77 CJ-7- AMC 360, Edelbrock cam, MC2100, Fenderwells, CJ T18/D20, Chevy D44/EB 9" rear, Trutrac f/r, 4.11, SOA, 1.25 lift shackles, 35x12.50 BFG KM2s, Shackle Reversal
jp360cj is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
Missouri_CJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Columbia
Posts: 5
Garage
Yes, Jeff I am. However, the angle is about 35* I believe and when the chassis rolls the slip yoke starts to come out.
Missouri_CJ is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
Missouri_CJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Columbia
Posts: 5
Garage
Turbos10 Do you have any pictures of your set up?
Missouri_CJ is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
Missouri_CJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Columbia
Posts: 5
Garage
I dropped the t-case about half an inch and put the shim in. It looks a lot smoother and when we rolled the chassis around the yoke did not slip. I will get an angle gauge and be able to put the exact degrees. It sounds like you want the two angles to be close to one another, however I do not understand how you can get the drive shaft parallel?
Missouri_CJ is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 07:55 AM
jp360cj
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri_CJ View Post
Yes, Jeff I am. However, the angle is about 35* I believe and when the chassis rolls the slip yoke starts to come out.
What angle is 35*? The driveshaft itself? Seems high for only 2-3" of lift, but it's only relevant when compared to the pinion and transfer case output angles. What transmission are you running?

When you say the slip yoke starts to come out, do you mean the driveshaft is about to come apart, or just that the slip yoke moved in and out? If it's close to coming apart, then the driveshaft is too short. If it's just moving, then that's what it's supposed to do. Although, it should be related to to the suspension cycling, not just rolling forward/backward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri_CJ View Post
I dropped the t-case about half an inch and put the shim in. It looks a lot smoother and when we rolled the chassis around the yoke did not slip. I will get an angle gauge and be able to put the exact degrees. It sounds like you want the two angles to be close to one another, however I do not understand how you can get the drive shaft parallel?
What do you mean by it "looks a lot smoother"? The ultimate goal with a single cardan shaft is to have the operating angles of the u joints the same, and less than 15*. According to Tom Woods, 15* is a pushed limit, so you may have vibration before then. The driveshaft itself doesn't need to be parallel to anything. It's the output shaft of the transfer case and the pinion on the rear axle that need to be parallel. This will put the U joint operating angles the same. **THIS IS ASSUMING YOU HAVE A STOCK STYLE SINGLE CARDAN DRIVESHAFT. IF YOU HAVE A DOUBLE CARDAN (CV) SHAFT, YOUR MEASUREMENTS WILL NEED TO BE DIFFERENT**

Also, it sounds like this CJ is in the process of being built...Is it sitting at final ride height with the weight of the drivetrain, body, etc sitting on it? If not, then you'll want to get some weight on it before finalizing the pinion angle.

77 CJ-7- AMC 360, Edelbrock cam, MC2100, Fenderwells, CJ T18/D20, Chevy D44/EB 9" rear, Trutrac f/r, 4.11, SOA, 1.25 lift shackles, 35x12.50 BFG KM2s, Shackle Reversal
jp360cj is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 09:02 AM
NashvilleTJ
I miss the snow...
 
NashvilleTJ's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 4,193
Are you able to drive the rig and if so, are you getting vibration from the rear end? Thatís the key indicator if there is a problem with the relative angles of the u-joints. As was noted earlier, pictures of the setup would help.

Build Thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Swing Away / Swing Down Tire Carrier:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NashvilleTJ is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 11:34 AM
Turbos10
Registered User
1986 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Stephenville
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri_CJ View Post
Turbos10 Do you have any pictures of your set up?
Here you go
Attached Thumbnails
23566043-F585-4EFA-B441-64A1EB3B6CCE_1532107987554.jpg  

1986 CJ7, 4.6 Stroker, T176, D300, 14Bolt/Dana60
CJ2 Buggy, L67, 700R4, 3.8 Atlas, D60s
Turbos10 is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 12:30 PM
80cj
Web Wheeler
 
80cj's Avatar
1980 CJ5 
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 8,067
Posting a picture would really help clarify things. For one thing you don't state what year CJ and drive train you have. An earlier CJ-5 with 3 speed would have a decent length drive shaft that may be able to tolerate the lift you describe but only needs to be shimmed to achieve proper angles. Later CJ-5s with 4 speeds will have shorter drive shafts which become more problematic with lifts and often require a new drive shaft with a double cardan constant velocity joint. If your drive shaft is pulling apart then you probably require a new longer one but still, drive shaft angles may be too severe thus affecting the length.
80cj is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 05:24 PM
NashvilleTJ
I miss the snow...
 
NashvilleTJ's Avatar
2004 LJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 4,193
Looks like a double cardan joint at the case after all. If that is true, hard to tell from the picture but it looks like the setup is close to correct. The angle between the drive shaft and the pinion shaft should be close to 0 - or perhaps 1 degree low given the leaf springs (the CJ guys can give better advice there). If you are worried about the length of the drive shaft being too short, you do need to pull the it and see how much spline engagement you have. You should have at least a couple of inches at full droop. Since the shaft is not stock (double-cardan), and looks at least from the picture that it may be set up correctly, perhaps the PO did it right, and maybe did know what he was doing. If that's the case, my guess is that the length is probably fine as well.

Build Thread:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Swing Away / Swing Down Tire Carrier:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
NashvilleTJ is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 09:10 PM
jp360cj
Registered User
1977 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,197
I don't think the pic in post #9 is the OP's jeep. But it did look set up correctly and might can provide some visual aid to the OP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

77 CJ-7- AMC 360, Edelbrock cam, MC2100, Fenderwells, CJ T18/D20, Chevy D44/EB 9" rear, Trutrac f/r, 4.11, SOA, 1.25 lift shackles, 35x12.50 BFG KM2s, Shackle Reversal
jp360cj is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old 07-20-2018, 10:12 PM
CSP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 17,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by NashvilleTJ View Post
Looks like a double cardan joint at the case after all. If that is true, hard to tell from the picture but it looks like the setup is close to correct.
Not the driveshaft in question. It's an example of what one should look like with a double cardan joint.
CSP is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome