MSD ignition pain / need a mechanic Sth FL - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 05:59 AM
JeepHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daz_mc View Post
Here's the pick. What would cause this?
Two things caused that,
One was a plug wire not snapped tightly down on the post,
The second was moisture in the connection.

Water and an electrical arc gap don't get along well...

To prevent this in the future, use some dielectric grease on the post before you install the plug wires, and make sure you hear/feel a CLICK when you put the plug wires on. MSD wires lock into place and make a CLICK when they lock.


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post #17 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mtnmax View Post
How old is your MSD box? The early ones wear out, especially if they're not wired correctly. There's a way to do a check on the box. I can't remember specifically how to do it, but if you do a Google search on 'MSD test' I'm sure you can find it. I had similar problems with a MSD equipped motor and I tried all sorts of things to fix it, and nothing seemed to work. I finally bought a new MSD box, hooked it up, and problem was solved. Good luck.
Early MSD boxes were about as rock solid as you could hope for,
It's the newer ones that fail fairly regularly.
MSD sold a few years back and new owners are using some questionable parts inside and they don't 'Burn In' modules before they ship.
The old MSD company used to burn in modules with a 24 hour torture test before they shipped, that doesn't happen anymore so more failures reach customers.

There is a cylinder number selector on the side of most MSD modules,
I would check to make sure it's set up for a six cylinder engine to start with...

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post #18 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daz_mc View Post
Thanks RWise. Hear's a break down of the issues and specs. Would love any help. I have trawled this site but found no real solve!
Specification: '86 CJ, 258 6 cyl, 4 speed, Holley 4 barrel carb with extractors, Alloy head cover, Edelbrook filter, MSD ignition, MSD distributor, barrel coil. Ignition is wired connected as per spec to the coil and dist, but the starter wiring is via a solenoid and kill switch.
The issue: Revs fin in neutral, under power it bucks as accelerating, and has a cough/splutter that de-powers until you get full acceleration. Then gathers power. It misses at half throttle under power and back fires on deceleration.
What you are describing is a fuel delivery problem.
Cough through the intake is usually a lean fuel issue.

It can also be a cam timing issues (slipped timing chain), but if the engine is failry fresh, that shouldn't be an issue.

A full diagnostic of the crankshaft/cam timing (I've laid out here several times) would tell you rather quickly if you have a worn/slipped timing chain.

This would include removing the #1 spark plug, finding COMPRESSION STROKE,
Then MANUALLY VERIFYING THE #1 PISTON COMES UP TO TOP DEAD CENTER.

You do this by hand, find compression stroke,
Then use something SOFT, like a chop stick or soda straw to feel for the piston as you turn the crank shaft BY HAND until the piston comes to TDC.

Once you do this, you can roll the crank a few degrees forward and backward and see how many crankshaft degrees it takes the rotor to move.
This will tell you how many crankshaft degrees 'Slop' you have in the timing chain... And that will determine if you need a new timing chain or not.

*IF*...
You go more advanced with this,
You can locate TDC of #1 piston on COMPRESSION STROKE, then use a dial indicator on the rocker arms to determine if the camshaft is opening the exhaust valve (and later the intake valve) at the correct times in relationship to the crankshaft.

This will tell you if the timing chain has slipped.
This will tell you not only if the camshaft timing is correct, but since you have a dial indicator on the rockers, if the camshaft is worn to the point it's not working correctly...

---------------------

Quote:
What happened: It was running great, good sound and power. The while doing 55 on a highway, it went clunk and died. The rotor had come loose in the ditributor and blew a big hole in the side of the distributor.
Distributor or distributor cap/adapter?
It would be quite unlikely that a plastic rotor could blow a hole in the distributor it's self, more likely you intended to say the distributor cap...

Quote:
A new rotor was installed (I think) and a new cap was added. Ran fine for a while, then started to cough. Then when I hit a pot hole while accelerating it really started its bucking and lost power, coughed under low through mid acceleration.
"New rotor I think"...
This would be telling. Since you obviously didn't do the work yourself you wouldn't know what was, or wasn't done...

Now, what I would check...
First off, the cap wouldn't usually go on if the rotor wasn't firmly seated,
So something broke the rotor.

This could be just a freak interference between rotor and cap,
Or it could be something like end play in the distributor shaft allowing the rotor to collide with the cap terminals.

I would check end play (Up and Down slop) in the distributor shaft,
While I was there, I would check side play in the distributor shaft, to see if the top bushing was worn out.
This is fairly rare in the Jeep/Motorcraft distributor, but it will happen from time to time when people don't lubricate under the rotor when they change oil or do maintenance.

Quote:
What I have tried: The vacuum advance pipe form the carb to distributor was connected and runs worse.

Vacuum advance pipe form the carb to distributor was disconnected and runs worse.

Vacuum advance pipe form the carb to distributor was disconnected sealed and runs bad (current state).

Plugs have been replaced.

Some were fowled but that's expected given the miss when running. Have tidied up all the wiring to ensure no effects on RF of wired to the coil etc.

PLEASE HELP.
OK, what I would do...
Make sure the trigger wires from distributor to module haven't made their way next to a spark plug, coil or MSD module main wires, or the wires going to the coil.

This will cause the module to false trigger a ton of times and screw up the proper timing signal in ways you can't imagine...

The trigger wires should be laid along METAL, and kept away from high voltage lines like the main wires to the module, main wires to the coil, spark plug and coil wires.

--------------

Second thing I would check is the ACTUAL TIMING,
Not just plug a timing light in and check the balancer,
But start with finding TDC of #1 cylinder on compression stroke,
Once that was VERIFIED,
I would check to make sure your BALANCER & TIMING TAB agree the crank is at TDC.

Timing tabs and balancers lie on a regular basis...

Once TDC and Balancer were VERIFIED,
I would move to the distributor and make sure the rotor was pointing at #1 plug wire terminal.

This will tell you if the distributor is dropped on the correct camshaft tooth and doing what it's supposed to do.

Then I would VERIFY the firing order. Make sure EVERY PLUG WIRE is in it's proper place, and SECURELY attached to the plug/cap.

Then I would fire up the engine, check timing with a LIGHT, don't just 'Guess' at it now that you have VERIFIED everything else...

As far as your MSD Module goes, any good MSD service dealer will have a trigger tester that shows RPM and will test the module itself.
I have one and can run the MSD modules up to over 15,000 RPM with nothing more than a test plug in the coil wire...

If your dealer/shop doesn't have one, they aren't a very good MSD dealer/shop since they are cheap enough for the average guy to afford and are invaluable when testing modules.

Once the ignition is VERIFIED, then move to fuel issues...

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post #19 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 06:45 AM
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Holley carbs are SIMPLE to diagnose and test...

Start with basic settings,

Make sure you use a REAL HOLLEY INTAKE/CARB GASKET.
The 'Aftermarket' gaskets often leak, cover vacuum ports to the carb, ect.

DO NOT OVER TORQUE THE MOUNTING BOLTS! This is the best way to have vacuum leaks, warp base plates, ect.

GET A BIG HONKING FUEL FILTER!
No carb, especially Holley, will take crap in the fuel!
Holley has VERY PRECISE fuel metering passages, and those won't take being plugged up with crap in the fuel!
And saying you will get a fuel filter 'Later' once it's tuned is the best way to screw up a Holley out of the box...
GET ONE NOW, BEFORE YOU START THE ENGINE!

Make sure your throttle blades aren't held open by the throttle linkage,
Make sure they go VERTICAL when the throttle pedal is pushed,
They don't stay partly closed or go over center when the throttle pedal is pushed.
Most people screw this up...

Make sure the accelerator pump doesn't bind when you open the throttle and doesn't' have any slack in it to cause a hesitation...

Screw IN the idle mixture screws LIGHTLY, then back them out about 4 turns to start the engine.
Idle mixture screws stay EVEN at all times, both turned out the same number of turns, ALWAYS IN AND OUT TOGETHER!
(unless you have an exhaust sniffer that will tell you when one or the other needs tweeking).

When you start it, adjust the float level correctly.
Incorrect float level is the #1 problem I see the most of.

The second is screwed up idle mixture.
Use a vacuum gauge to determine when you have the correct idle mixture if you don't have a O2 sensor tuner.

Once you have a reasonable fuel mixture, and the float level is correct, you can move onto the other stuff...

VERY FEW 'MECHANICS' WILL HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE BASE TO FIND/FIX YOUR ISSUES.
Most are 'Parts Changers' and not educated in the way these parts were engineered to work together... They can find 'Bad' parts, but not diagnose what the actual problem is...
You need a diagnostic geek at this point, and those are way hard to come by...

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post #20 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 06:53 AM
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Just for future reference,

Provided your ignition is anywhere close to where it should be...

90% of the time, 'Popping', 'Coughing' or 'Sneezing' through the intake is either lean fuel or camshaft/valve train issues.
(bent intake valves, stuck intake valves, bent rocker arms, over lean fuel mix, accelerator pump now working, power valve not working, ect.)

Blowing down through the pipes (Flat out backfire that wakes the neighbors) is almost always an ignition issue or a way over rich fuel mixture allowing raw fuel into the exhaust.

Hesitation while trying to accelerate is almost always a lean fuel mix under load.
When it's lean enough, you will get a Cough or Sneeze through the carb. Time to richen up the acceleration fuel delivery, like the accelerator pump shot or the power valve if your carb has one.

When the rotor failed, you probably had a blast through the carb, so I would check the power valve in your carb.
Hard blows back through the carb can blow out the power valve in Holleys and other carbs with power valves and cause issues that are hard to track down.

The easiest way to track down a blown power valve I can think of (and it's not 100% accurate, but will get you on the right track) is to lean out the fuel mix at the idle adjustments....

Since the engine with a blown power valve is sucking fuel when it's not supposed to, you can just about close the idle mixture screws and the engine will still run (Poorly, but still run)...
This indicates a fuel source other than idle mixture, and the power valve is always suspect when you find this...

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post #21 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
Daz_mc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 86cj74.2L View Post
Pull your fuel bowls and look for dirt.

What are your jets for the mains and secondaries?

Cutting out under load can be the coil going bad. Are you using a MSD coil?
Thanks I have no idea how to check the fuel bowl or the jets, so some direction or guidance would be good there.

Yes, MSD coil. Have done a diagnostic test from the MSD web site and it seems to be OK.
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post #22 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 04:11 PM
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Did you install the carb. Or did you buy jeep as it is now?

As for testing the coil. When it get hot from engine heat it can fail and you'll never find it unless you preform the spark test.

But farting out the carb and what not the carb seems lean. Like dirt got sucked up or something.

If you look at the front and rear of carb the float bowls will be held with 4 screws each. You can remove a lower screw and drain the gas out into a rag or cup. Then remove the other 3 on each and tap it to remove. You will see the main jets in the front bowl and the secondary jets on the rear.

If the gaskets are not blue they most likely will be trashed removing the fuel bowls. The metering block is the section sandwitched between the body and fuel bowl. And has the jets installed into them as well as a power valve in the front metering block.

Also your float height is important. You want to remove the side plug and the fuel level should be at or below the hole. I Personally like the fuel level such that vigorous shaking of jeep does not slosh fuel out the side plug hole. Which ends up being about 1/8 inch below hole.

Plenty of YouTube videos in Holley carbs.
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post #23 of 29 Old 05-18-2014, 04:12 PM
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Also do you know what model you have?
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post #24 of 29 Old 05-26-2014, 06:27 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you gentlemen,
Let me update you on progress. I checked all wiring and leads. Then, as I had one possible faulty spark lead, I replaced them all. Then I used a timing light to check timing. It was way out. 20plus degrees at idle. Adjusted back to 9 degrees at idle. Then I checked the carb with a vacuum gauge. Surprisingly, it gave me normal reading, no real issues there. But still no improvements. I then checked the float level. It seems the primary bowl was well over the desired level. Fuel gushed out when I opened the inspections screw. I then lowered the float about 3/4 of a turn. Checked the secondary bowl and that was high too, but not as much. Lowered that 1/2 turn. Then off for a test drive. Started out the same.

Then, as I accelerated it went pop and hiss like something was dislodged. It now runs like a dream. Upon returning home, it was idling a fair bit lower than it was when I did the timing, so I adjusted with the idle screw and she purrs.

I would love to know what people think might have happened, just in case it happens again. And thanks for all the help, I learnt a lot.

Cheers
daz
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post #25 of 29 Old 05-27-2014, 02:43 PM
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Daz,
I know a guy in Stuart Fl. Don't know if he is close to you or not

His name is Henry, if he is close stop by and say hey, he will talk your ear off...

MEAN MAX THE JEEP GUY
3710 S.E. DIXIE HWY
STUART, FL 34997
772-260-3806


UPTILLNOW
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post #26 of 29 Old 06-01-2014, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptillnow View Post
Daz,
I know a guy in Stuart Fl. Don't know if he is close to you or not

His name is Henry, if he is close stop by and say hey, he will talk your ear off...

MEAN MAX THE JEEP GUY
3710 S.E. DIXIE HWY
STUART, FL 34997
772-260-3806

UPTILLNOW
Hahaha!

Guilty as charged!

Max


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Max has a picture of every Jeep part ever made.
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No one here knows what they are talking about. You should try Pirate 4x4 they will be happy to help you.

There is no situation that cannot be improved with a small but well-placed explosive.
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post #27 of 29 Old 07-20-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uptillnow View Post
Daz,
I know a guy in Stuart Fl. Don't know if he is close to you or not

His name is Henry, if he is close stop by and say hey, he will talk your ear off...

MEAN MAX THE JEEP GUY
3710 S.E. DIXIE HWY
STUART, FL 34997
772-260-3806


UPTILLNOW
He is a friendly and knowledgeable guy. I stopped by to see him and he has helped me out twice so far.
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post #28 of 29 Old 07-23-2014, 05:12 PM
Thbugman
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I might have to give max a call. I'm in Port Saint Lucie. Having issues with my CJ
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post #29 of 29 Old 07-24-2014, 03:29 AM
grasmo
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sounds like you just needed plug wires. one of your new plugs probably re-fouled and took a few minutes to clean up.....if you haven't done the routine maintenance, that is where you must always start your troubleshooting.
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