Marker/Running lights ALWAYS on?? - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 26 Old 10-06-2021, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
Girth83
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Marker/Running lights ALWAYS on??

While I dig through my wiring harness and study the diagram from the TSM, scratching my head..... I figured I'd do the normal forum thing and just ASK. Maybe someone more familiar with the system has an easy answer?



1982 CJ5, new to me, that I'm tearing into. Can't apply power to test currently, as the dash is out as well as a fair amount of wiring.


Key off, as soon as I would hook up the battery, the front markers, "running lights"(? turn signal housings, not flashing) and the one tail light that works currently, they would be on.

Unplugged the headlight switch, they're still on. Unplug the turn signal switch harness from the column, and they are OFF.

Headlight switch WAS mounted through a piece of aluminum diamond plate that was barely screwed to the dash, so a questionable ground.

Lights always have power (available), even with key off, but are activated by the switch, correct? My first thought was shoddy wiring or a bad switch.... but I was just digging through the harness behind the dash, and nothing looks out of place in those circuits. With the switch totally removed, and the lights still on, I can't see a bad switch causing the problem. No evidence of corrosion causing a short or a melted plug for the switch.

Only other two possible issues I can think of are maybe a faulty ignition switch, that's sending power when it shouldn't, or the more likely possibility that I have a short at a connection somewhere. MOST of the wiring behind the dash, at least what's left after I've been eliminating junk that was spliced in, is original and looks to be connected as per the diagram. Along with the dash removed, I have the fuse block pulled out, so it's all accessible right now.

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post #2 of 26 Old 10-06-2021, 05:06 PM
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If both front markers and the tail light are on (likely the turn signal and brake light is what is activated), then the problem might be in the emergency flasher circuit. I would plug the column back in and then pull your turn signal flasher and emergency flasher and see what happens. With everything apart, you might not be getting the right connections for the flasher to flash and it is just putting the lights on solid.
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post #3 of 26 Old 10-06-2021, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
If both front markers and the tail light are on (likely the turn signal and brake light is what is activated), then the problem might be in the emergency flasher circuit. I would plug the column back in and then pull your turn signal flasher and emergency flasher and see what happens. With everything apart, you might not be getting the right connections for the flasher to flash and it is just putting the lights on solid.
I'll check that if I don't find anything else wrong, after I put it back together. This problem existed before I disassembled anything. Actually... it's what made me start digging. It's been a bit of fun ever since. lol It'd be sorta comical if a bad connection was the sole cause, but I've found/fixed a ton of other issues in my digging.

I should add, the brake lights and turn signals (in that they didn't flash) were not working either.... so you may be onto something if the emergency flasher circuit was solid on.



Just about EVERYTHING is disconnected currently.
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post #4 of 26 Old 10-06-2021, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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Fourtail.... I'm guessing you nailed it, but won't know until I get it all back together. I gotta do some cutting/welding on the dash, and more wiring, so it's gonna be a bit still,

My 4-way flasher knob on the steering column was stuck. Noticed that when we first got the Jeep, but hadn't really gotten around to the column yet. I THINK it was stuck IN, but not 100%. It didn't move until I loosened up the mounting screws for the turn signal switch, then it would pop back and forth as it's supposed to I guess. Of course after fiddling with it, I can't recall what position it was stuck in.

I had a new TS switch on hand, so just stuffed that in. I see my cancel cam is pretty worn and corroded (missing that darn horn plunger in it too, so guess I get to make one of those) so need to order a new cam.... and snap ring for the lock plate, and switch arm, and steering wheel. I have a LIST going.
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post #5 of 26 Old 10-24-2021, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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Soooo.... the problem persists. I put a new turn signal switch in while I was messing with everything else. Generic GM switch, not a CJ specific part. TW20T was the PN if I remember right. New flashers installed in the fuse block. Same as before, as soon as the battery is connected, lights are on.



More specifically, with the flasher button on the column pulled out, Both tail(brake?) lights are on. Passenger side is brighter, but it's also new (housing/bulbs/etc). RF turn signal is on solid, as is the marker light on the RF fender, LF turn signal is dark. RH turn signal indicator in the speedometer is also lit. If I wiggle the flasher button, the turn signal indicator will go out, exterior lights remain lit the same.

When the flasher knob is pushed IN, both tail lights are still illuminated, but the drivers side dims. BOTH front turn signals are now lit, as are the fender markers. Both turn signal indicators in the speedometer are now lit.

Moving the turn signal switch, applying LH turn signal dims the light on the Drivers side tail light. No other lights change. Applying RH turn signal has no effect.

It did all this with the key off, and I didn't notice any change with the key on.
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post #6 of 26 Old 10-24-2021, 08:36 PM
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I am seeing tow bar mounts on the front bumper, what kind of harness if any it tied in to run the Jeep lights when hooked to the tow vehicle? looking like something is backfeeding through the turn signal switch.

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post #7 of 26 Old 10-24-2021, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
I am seeing tow bar mounts on the front bumper, what kind of harness if any it tied in to run the Jeep lights when hooked to the tow vehicle? looking like something is backfeeding through the turn signal switch.
There is no wiring up there. Nothing extra at least. I've laid hands on EVERY wire forward of the firewall.

Brake switch backfeeding? That and the ignition switch are two things I haven't touched.
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post #8 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 04:55 AM
John Strenk
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Well, if the brake switch is stuck ON and one of the tail lights has a bad ground then the power could backfeed through the rest of the running light circuit.

This looks like a good candidate for a bad ground because both filaments are ON at the same time.



Try pulling the fuse on the brake light circuit. It's hot all the time, the ignition switch does not turn it off.
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post #9 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 07:19 AM
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I went through this same thing recently with my CJ 5 and found it was the turn signal switch that was causing the problems.
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post #10 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
Well, if the brake switch is stuck ON and one of the tail lights has a bad ground then the power could backfeed through the rest of the running light circuit.

This looks like a good candidate for a bad ground because both filaments are ON at the same time.



Try pulling the fuse on the brake light circuit. It's hot all the time, the ignition switch does not turn it off.

I'll pull the fuse and mess with the brake switch today. I see by the diagram it has a direct path to the TS switch.



I'd HOPE the ground for the brake lights is not an issue. That wire you see in the bottom the housing has a ring terminal under one of the mounting bolts, and the same on the other housing. Those tie together at a stud on the tub where the fuel sender grounds, then it runs forward to a stud on the dash, which is tied to a through bolt in the firewall, and eventually the NEG Batt terminal. Hmm... I suppose it could be a ground issue with that light socket itself, a bad connection to the plate in the housing? It LOOKED ok, but I didn't check. I just replaced the RH housing because it was horribly corroded.

Thinking about it.... the only lights I haven't messed with are the front TS and fender markers. They work, though the LH fender marker is dim. (same side as the dim tail/brake light) Headlight grounds were redone and jumpered to the Batt when I had them out.
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post #11 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 11:10 AM
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It may not be the socket. I've seen bulbs with a broken ground wire cause the same thing.

I run all grounds to the same point. I don't trust the tub even if it's steel.

The front turn signals are on a separate circuit. The running light that shares the same bulb as the front turn signal light could be part of the problem. \
That would require two bad grounds, which, is quite common with older vehicles and make finding a problem much harder or shows up as another surprise, gift, opportunity later on.


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post #12 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
Girth83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
It may not be the socket. I've seen bulbs with a broken ground wire cause the same thing.

I run all grounds to the same point. I don't trust the tub even if it's steel.

The front turn signals are on a separate circuit. The running light that shares the same bulb as the front turn signal light could be part of the problem. \
That would require two bad grounds, which, is quite common with older vehicles and make finding a problem much harder or shows up as another surprise, gift, opportunity later on.
John (and Fourtail) to the rescue once again. We're on the right track at least, to trouble free lights.


As to the grounds, the tub isn't being used for one, but as a mounting point for a ground stud. Technically that probably grounds to the tub, jumpers from brake light housings attach there, but there is also a wire from that stud (ran it with the harness along the inside of the tub) to a stud on the dash, which jumpers to a bolt through the firewall, which jumpers to a common stud on the inner fender, which has 4ga to the block and batt. All the grounds I installed end up back at the NEG terminal on the battery, eventually. The original headlight grounds in the grill are also now tied back to that common stud on the inner fender. Not as trouble free as a single ground point, since there are still 4 or 5 common points to check.... but all tied together to a single point. Better than the rusty ol' tub though.



What I did, and where things are at now:

The drivers side tail light housing, that little jumper wire that connects to the spade on the ground plate inside was not fitting tight. Cleaned that, crimped the terminal a bit so it fits tight. 1157 bulb, installed a new one. Contacts on the old bulb were "dished" from vibration or arching maybe, over a long period of time. That bulb shines just as bright as the new housing on the other side.

The front turn signal housings are a problem (as many have complained about it seems). They "work" but I'm gonna have to address that. Cleaned them up and made sure the shoulder screws had good contact.... but I think it's spotty. Found out why the drivers side fender marker was "dim" too. The inside of the light housing was filled with "moss"? Looked like a black scotchbrite pad in there. Years of dirt and water I guess. Shines bright now.

The Brake switch..... pulled the fuse first. Nothing lit up upon connecting the battery, so knew we were on the right track. Played contortionist for a minute and popped the plug off the switch, with the help of a long and thin screwdriver. With the fuse reinstalled but the switch disconnected..... lights still stay off. Had a spare switch on hand, so I plugged that into the plug... and then things got weird.

Same as before, as soon as I connected the battery, the rear lights lit, as well as the passenger front turn signal and fender marker. Depressing the plunger on the new switch made everything turn off. Cycled the switch a couple times and the same lights lit up. Pushed in the 4way flasher knob, holding the brake switch in (as if brakes are OFF) and all four corners started flashing as they should. Pull the 4way knob back out, still holding brake switch in....... and everything is dark. Let go of the brake switch and the brake light bulbs lit, but NOT the front turn signal now. Basically the brake lights started working as they should, and the turn signal did not come on.

SO..... long winded reply, but for the moment, the lights are working as they should..... mostly. I still have to test turn signals/tail lights etc. I know one of the headlights is fried, gonna do the relay mod/H4 bulbs anyways, but didn't want to add anything until I knew what worked as "original". I'm gonna have to address the front turn signal housings though, as they're pretty bad, and it looks like a source of intermittent issues?
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post #13 of 26 Old 10-25-2021, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Now I just have to contort my body around and try to install/adjust the new brake switch. It came with some jumpers so you don't have to attach the plug directly to it. I'm gonna think about that though. Sounds easier than fitting the plug onto the switch, but I don't like the idea of adding another possibly troublesome connection.
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post #14 of 26 Old 10-30-2021, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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Brake, tail/marker, and 4way flashers are working as they should.... but issues remain. When I apply the brake, brake lights come on, as well as the RF turn signal (on solid/not flashing, and I think that's the correct element in the bulb). When I select Right Turn, both Rear TS(brake element in the bulb?) flash, as well as the RF TS. When I select Left Turn, both rears AND both fronts flash,. Applying the brake in either turn position causes all the bulbs (3 for right turn, 4 for left turn) to stop flashing and stay on. Soon as I let off the brake, they go back to flashing.



When I first tried to test the turn signals, I had nothing at all. Swapped the emerg/turn flashers (both new) and got nothing. Put the old flasher back in, and they sorta worked. Flashed faster/weaker. Put the new flasher back in (as well as another new one today) and the symptoms are as described above. Swapping flashers around causing a different result initially makes me thing I need to pull the fuse block again and remove/clean/reset the connectors for the flasher.

This afternoon, I started pulling bulbs to see if it had any effect. Bulled both front TS and fender marker bulbs, rear lights still both flashed or burned solid with brake on. Reinstalled front TS bulbs, and pulled each rear bulb in turn, and then both rear bulbs, no change in behavior.

I'm gonna go through some connectors and take a closer look at wiring again, and probably yard out the fuse block (again)..... but if anyone has any good ideas, I'd appreciate it.



I rebuilt the front turn signal housings (to include new contacts in their sockets), adding a dedicated ground bolted to the housings. New bulbs all around.
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post #15 of 26 Old 10-30-2021, 07:56 PM
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To save you some time, I don't think it has anything to do with your fuse box.

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I would pull the turn signal plug apart and get a jumper wire to put power on each of the Red and green wires individually. You can get power from some hot fuse on the fuse box.

This should light up each bulb individually. If you see more than one light or filament on at a time, I would start checking out that circuit.

The dark green wires have one wire to the turn signal light on the front and one wire to the turn signal bulb in the speedometer.

You should remove the fender bulbs when doing this test and it will kinda screw with this test.
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