Front Parking Lights/side marker + LED - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 30 Old 07-12-2020, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
mpulokas
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Front Parking Lights/side marker + LED

Trying to work out something here. Thought I was being cool and got LED bulbs for my exterior running lights = parking/tail/side markers at front and back. The back lights turned out great. Front not so much. So I started looking at the wiring diagram and trying to get my head around this. It is truly amazing that it works at all frankly.



The front parking lights have a dual filament bulb, essentially 2 circuits: 1) running/parking light 2) turn blinker and they are grounded through the mount to make the circuit complete. However, the Side maker is a single filament bulb that is wired to the same two circuits with no "ground" wire. Thus, the turn signal circuit must actually be normally ground! WHICH THEN is backfeed into the front parking light and will normally be a closed ground.



When the turn signal is activate, the polarity of the signal curcuit flip flops and then the side marker intermittently looses ground and turns off/ or on depending on if the parking light is switched on. It is quite a mind bender of feed back loops which changes depending on what circuit is active or not. Sheeesh. This drags all the way to the dash indicators which are following along because they have to. This is why the front parking light and the side marker ALTERNATE on/off and are not together. One is constantly alternating being the ground for the other when blinking or opening the curcuit.



Throw LED into to mix and this clever system BARFS all over. LED's do not let current flip flop as they are diodes and anyone who knows what a diode is know that current only goes one way. Now there are some LED "bulbs" that are supposed to be polarity insensitive but I am firstly skeptical but secondly it is my thought that they do this by making 1/2 the diodes one way and the other 1/2 the other. Thus you are ever only using 1/2 the diodes you actually bought and 1/2 the brightness that I so desperately desire.



I have read some other posts in the past here where people claim they have had no problem but there is enough evidence through other posts to suggest otherwise. Maybe I am missing something?... Anyone?



Solution (hypothesis): Take the White (parking circuit) and Green (turn signal) off the side marker and eliminate this feedback polarity reversing crap. Instead, feed them into a some kind of relay or set of relays to get these babies to work independent of the the front lights. (Remember, the front lights work fine because they are dual circuits just like the back who are working perfectly). Problem is that I am having a little trouble seeing how this should work or if there is a good system already made for this. Because the system needs to have one feed to the bulb and the light needs to be ON or BLINK depending on if it is on or not. I would rewire the ground end of the side light obviously to an actual ground.


Please note, my wiring is sound, I have adequate grounding, the system works find with LED's without the side markers in the mix. I do not need resistors or special flashers or more diodes. The OEM circuit to the front lights is truly messed up with respect to making LED's work and it creates a horrendous feed back all the way to the dash when LED's are in the system when the polarity reversing. The goal here is to make a better system and not just make it work.



So, what am I missing or any ideas?

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- MAP
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post #2 of 30 Old 07-12-2020, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpulokas View Post
The goal here is to make a better system and not just make it work.
If the goal is to make a better system and you require:
1) The lights to be LEDs
2) For the LEDs to be non-diodes (which I think would work just fine)
Then you need to create a different system. It sounds like you have the wiring knowledge to create one yourself. Many people put their headlights on relays; maybe you could create something similar. Please update us with your solution (wiring diagram)!
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post #3 of 30 Old 07-12-2020, 10:39 PM
pedal2themetai
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Hi if the led light only hads one filament then it can only run one light ether the signal or the park.. Not both.. one wire is ground while the other is power..
good luck
tim
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post #4 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedal2themetai View Post
Hi if the led light only hads one filament then it can only run one light ether the signal or the park.. Not both.. one wire is ground while the other is power..
good luck
tim
I think he is talking about the side light has one filament..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpulokas View Post
Trying to work out something here. Thought I was being cool and got LED bulbs for my exterior running lights = parking/tail/side markers at front and back. The back lights turned out great. Front not so much. So I started looking at the wiring diagram and trying to get my head around this. It is truly amazing that it works at all frankly.
Kinda clever for AMC engineers. To bad they didn't ground other stuff.

Quote:
The front parking lights have a dual filament bulb, essentially 2 circuits: 1) running/parking light 2) turn blinker and they are grounded through the mount to make the circuit complete. However, the Side maker is a single filament bulb that is wired to the same two circuits with no "ground" wire. Thus, the turn signal circuit must actually be normally ground! WHICH THEN is backfeed into the front parking light and will normally be a closed ground.
Yep.
And since the fender light draws so little current, it acts as a resistor so the backfed light doesn't get enough current to light up.
This is important later.

Quote:


When the turn signal is activate, the polarity of the signal curcuit flip flops and then the side marker intermittently looses ground and turns off/ or on depending on if the parking light is switched on. It is quite a mind bender of feed back loops which changes depending on what circuit is active or not. Sheeesh. This drags all the way to the dash indicators which are following along because they have to. This is why the front parking light and the side marker ALTERNATE on/off and are not together. One is constantly alternating being the ground for the other when blinking or opening the curcuit.



Throw LED into to mix and this clever system BARFS all over. LED's do not let current flip flop as they are diodes and anyone who knows what a diode is know that current only goes one way. Now there are some LED "bulbs" that are supposed to be polarity insensitive but I am firstly skeptical but secondly it is my thought that they do this by making 1/2 the diodes one way and the other 1/2 the other. Thus you are ever only using 1/2 the diodes you actually bought and 1/2 the brightness that I so desperately desire.
Yes, and the LED's only need a little amount of current, that side marker is now acting as a short when compared to the current draw on the LED's.
It makes it act strange.

What I found out about 'Polarity insensitive LED's' means that they can be inserted in any direction.
Meaning, if it doesn't work in one direction, just turn it around and put it in the other direction.

A true 'polarity insensitive LED' will have two diodes in opposite direction in one unit.

Quote:
I have read some other posts in the past here where people claim they have had no problem but there is enough evidence through other posts to suggest otherwise. Maybe I am missing something?... Anyone?
Electrically speaking, they must of used magic cause I can't figure out how they do it either.

Quote:
Solution (hypothesis): Take the White (parking circuit) and Green (turn signal) off the side marker and eliminate this feedback polarity reversing crap. Instead, feed them into a some kind of relay or set of relays to get these babies to work independent of the the front lights. (Remember, the front lights work fine because they are dual circuits just like the back who are working perfectly). Problem is that I am having a little trouble seeing how this should work or if there is a good system already made for this. Because the system needs to have one feed to the bulb and the light needs to be ON or BLINK depending on if it is on or not. I would rewire the ground end of the side light obviously to an actual ground.
It would take 3 relays. one for each turn signal and one for the running lights. 4 (or more) relays if you want the side marker to flash opposite when the running lights are on.

Quote:
Please note, my wiring is sound, I have adequate grounding, the system works find with LED's without the side markers in the mix. I do not need resistors or special flashers or more diodes. The OEM circuit to the front lights is truly messed up with respect to making LED's work and it creates a horrendous feed back all the way to the dash when LED's are in the system when the polarity reversing. The goal here is to make a better system and not just make it work.



So, what am I missing or any ideas?
Not much.

An XOR or gate would solve your problem here. ( 2-Input Exclusive-OR (XOR) Gate)

I’ll get back to you on an XOR gate.
Or an Arduino which would be fun. You could make it do all sorts of fun stuff.

Yes, those pesky Light Emitting DIODES do make for some interesting problems.

Here you go. You won’t need the resistors. Just a big transistor and an XOR gate IC.
And something to drop the voltage to 5 volts for the IC. unless you can source one for 15 volts.
If either circuit is ON then the LED side marker is ON

90f730e0-c86f-4d05-b5d2-d119d6a63578.jpg
1206f7d7-8bed-4b35-9e8e-ca4bd1467460.jpg

If both are OFF or both ON then the LED side marker is OFF

3519115f-882b-4549-9fad-56e1399a3ea4.jpg


Mixing LED and normal incandescent lights mess it up further.


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post #5 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 04:42 AM
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I encountered similar problems some years ago putting LED bulbs in my tailights . Decided it was not worth the trouble to modify the wiring (really, unlike upgraded headlights, switching tail light bulbs provided no real functional improvement)

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post #6 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 06:32 AM
pedal2themetai
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[QUOTE=John Strenk;41019135]I think he is talking about the side light has one filament..

Yes I know but I think he is trying to run both the park/running light and the turning signal thru it.. and it well only take one or the other not both. So when he ties it together it causes feedback .

good luck
tim
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post #7 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 08:05 AM
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[quote=pedal2themetai;41019207]
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
I think he is talking about the side light has one filament..

Yes I know but I think he is trying to run both the park/running light and the turning signal thru it.. and it well only take one or the other not both. So when he ties it together it causes feedback .

good luck
tim
That is how fender light is designed to operated. It's connected to both the running lights and Turn Signal Lights.

It works great with incandescent bulbs nut not with LED's


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post #8 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
mpulokas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
Yep.
And since the fender light draws so little current, it acts as a resistor so the backfed light doesn't get enough current to light up.
This is important later.

VERY!




Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
Electrically speaking, they must of used magic cause I can't figure out how they do it either.
The best kind of Magic. LED magic. wizards n' stuff you know...




So a little googling found me here (not much mind you, I have a daytime job in theory):
http://danielsternlighting.com/tech/...rkerflash.html


Interesting. Anybody try this? I have looked it over an it seems like the "trick" I am looking for. My guess is the little gizmo is just a nice compact ROM chip with feeds that does all the stuff in your diagrams John. It is also repurposed from the original function it was designed for as Daytime Running Light (DRL) drivers for the front parking lights. I just need to adjust it for parking feed instead of the ignition feed and send it to the side markers only not the front lights so the DRL-1 original page is not a good reference just the linked page. Also at the bottom of the page he mentions a two relay with 4-way NO operation system. He goes out of his way to make it seem really hard, too many parts and "clicking". For the love of God, the clicking! Any who, I'll be looking into this more... for $60 I can skip 4 relays and a bunch of wires as that will be the cost anyway. More interwebbing...

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post #9 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
mpulokas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedal2themetai View Post

Yes I know but I think he is trying to run both the park/running light and the turning signal thru it.. and it well only take one or the other not both. So when he ties it together it causes feedback .

good luck
tim

Not quite. The original system does this. That is why LED don't work. I want to fix this.



That means the side marker cannot be run through the parking light but has to be controlled through a deliberate control independent of the parking light. It needs to be able to have two circuits control the operation of one filament either/or while one or both are operating. The parking light and side marker have to be separated in order for LED to work. No feedback allowed.

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post #10 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
mpulokas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarageMonkey View Post
If the goal is to make a better system and you require:
1) The lights to be LEDs
2) For the LEDs to be non-diodes (which I think would work just fine)
Then you need to create a different system. It sounds like you have the wiring knowledge to create one yourself. Many people put their headlights on relays; maybe you could create something similar. Please update us with your solution (wiring diagram)!

LED are diodes. You can't take that away from them. It is just who they are


I think relays are the answer, or at least one of them or part of it. It is just a logic circuit that need to be managed. Hoping not to reinvent the wheel if it has been done. The wires and basic infrastructure is there, just need to manage it differently to control a single filament separated from the parking lights being controlled by two circuits at a time where they both have to operate at the same time and both independently.

- MAP
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post #11 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 09:33 AM
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This thing is cheap enough to give it a try even though it says not for LED, but can't see why it wouldn't work. Hook up you parking light to the stop light wire and the turn signals as they would normally be and then your output to the side marker lights. Should give you turn signals when the parking lights are on or off.



https://www.amazon.com/CURT-58240-No.../dp/B001EP0GI6


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post #12 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
This thing is cheap enough to give it a try even though it says not for LED, but can't see why it wouldn't work. Hook up you parking light to the stop light wire and the turn signals as they would normally be and then your output to the side marker lights. Should give you turn signals when the parking lights are on or off.



https://www.amazon.com/CURT-58240-No.../dp/B001EP0GI6


Hmmm.. I like that.

If it has enough current capacity for a light bulb, should be plenty for the LED.

Just have to see how the input works.


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post #13 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 11:14 AM
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HI I don't know.. it looks more like its to wire a car with separate brake and signal lights to a trailer where the brake and signal are the same filament.
good luck
tim
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post #14 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 11:44 AM
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HI I don't know.. it looks more like its to wire a car with separate brake and signal lights to a trailer where the brake and signal are the same filament.
good luck
tim
Yep,

That's kinda like what we want to do but instead of a trailer light we will hook it up to the side marker on the fender.


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post #15 of 30 Old 07-13-2020, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
This thing is cheap enough to give it a try even though it says not for LED, but can't see why it wouldn't work. Hook up you parking light to the stop light wire and the turn signals as they would normally be and then your output to the side marker lights. Should give you turn signals when the parking lights are on or off.



https://www.amazon.com/CURT-58240-No.../dp/B001EP0GI6


Oh yeah. This is very promising. This might just be the ticket. I would feel better if it had a grounding lead just for sake of electronics and needing a ground. Everything needs a ground. But at $10+/- I can experiment. Now, I also notice on the mfg website (https://www.curtmfg.com/part/58240) it says "Cannot be used on LED equipped vehicles" BUT this is not an LED vehicle... . It is being converted to one... The LED's won't even know what is happening. Now to the rabbit hole...

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