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post #46 of 59 Old 09-26-2021, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
JVino
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OK. I started her up and she ran rough at idle. I kept the RPM's at about 1K for the warm up until she reached normal operating temp. I turned her off, went through the idle screw adjustment process, turned her back on and took my battery charger and placed it on the throttle to keep the RPM's up enough so she wouldn't stall. I turned the idle screw until I felt the idle was high enough. Took the charger off the throttle and she was holding at 650. Gave some throttle. Great throttle response, no black smoke, and she came back down to 650 idle. So great news and still need to do some trial and error. I think cutting the MAP sensor line down to about an inch and a half made a huge difference. Still need to figure out the rough and rich cold start. By the way, not sure if it is normal but I must have turned the idle screw about six full revolutions. That normal?


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post #47 of 59 Old 09-26-2021, 10:14 AM
Rondawg80
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That does seem like a lot. It IS possible that it was NOT set properly from Howell. They are Human after all. I think the smog sticker says to keep the idle at 750. Could you take a pic of your map sensor? I would like to see that, I might want to try that on my setup. I am Stoked that it is finally starting to run correctly, the Howell system really makes a big difference in overall performance.

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post #48 of 59 Old 09-26-2021, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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I can't explain it but I started her up this morning and no black smoke on cold start! Bit low idle so bumped her up from 600 to about 750. The timing is proving a bit tough. She does not want to idle with no vacuum at 6-8 BTDC like Howell suggests. With vacuum, for some reason, she idles great at 10 BTDC and great throttle response. I left her there where I felt she was happiest. I can't tell you what it is like to drive her for the first time. I put the transmission in gear and nothing happened. Another set back. Hoping to take her back to the transmission shop I had her rebuilt at. Fingers crossed. I took off the transmission cooler line, starter it up, and no fluid flowing. Must be the pump.

I will take a pic of the cut I made and where the MAP sensor is at now tomorrow. Made a huge difference for me. And YES...could be human error...the idle screw turned at least four full revolutions clockwise. The spray coming from the injectors didn't look like it could get any more pressurized. I'm kinda just going along with the flow now. Sounds good, feels good, good for me!
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post #49 of 59 Old 09-27-2021, 11:38 AM
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Torque converter bolted up?
Trans fluid level good?

Just a couple of suspect things to clarify before dropping the whole thing out again!
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post #50 of 59 Old 09-30-2021, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
JVino
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Here is the photo Rondawg. Sorry it took a while. It is just free floating with the vacuum hose holding it up. Made a huge difference.

I found out what the problem was with the transmission. The gears in the pump were broken. The only thing I can think of is when I connected the torque converter to the flex plate, I separated it too far from the pump. Didn't shim it properly. I spent the last couple days getting it out. It is at the transmission shop now. They replaced what needed replacing and I had to get a new torque converter. Last one was stuck in there and they had to pry it out. Wasn't a pretty site. It is still in the shop because when putting the vacuum modulator in, he noticed the little hatchet looking piece that carries some ball, I can't remember exactly how it worked, was missing. He said the transmission would have shifted through the gears as soon as I put it in D. The closest replacement part is in Penn. He is overnighting it. Should be here tomorrow. What a nightmare. Learned my lesson though. Now I have a micrometer to measure that distance between the converter and the flex plate so I don't make the same mistake. Let that be a lesson to the noobs trying to do it themselves.

To answer your question Devildog...yes the converter was bolted up and yes there was fluid. I put in 8 quarts until it wouldn't hold anymore without starting it and running it through the gears. I had another two to three quarts on standby to add to make 10.5-11. I also added .5 to 3/4 quart to the converter before installing it. Quite a setback but at least the motor is running good so when I get the trans back in I won't have to worry about that.

I will post a final pic of the finished product as soon as the trans is back in and she is road worthy!

Thanks all!
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post #51 of 59 Old 09-30-2021, 11:09 AM
OrangeCJ-5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVino View Post
I found out what the problem was with the transmission. The gears in the pump were broken. The only thing I can think of is when I connected the torque converter to the flex plate, I separated it too far from the pump. Didn't shim it properly. I spent the last couple days getting it out. It is at the transmission shop now. They replaced what needed replacing and I had to get a new torque converter. Last one was stuck in there and they had to pry it out. Wasn't a pretty site…Now I have a micrometer to measure that distance between the converter and the flex plate so I don't make the same mistake. Let that be a lesson to the noobs trying to do it themselves.
Sounds like you didn’t have the converter fully seated in the pump. When you installed the transmission it jammed the converter back into the pump. Never heard of using a micrometer to install the transmission. When you install the bolts/ nuts through the the flex plate into the converter it should draw the converter forward.
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post #52 of 59 Old 09-30-2021, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
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Transmission shop told me the distance between the converter and the flex plate should be between .125 and .175 away from each other. Anything over .175, I need to use shims to bring it within those distances. I think in my case, I pulled the converter too far towards the flex plate and outside the .175. They did mention the possibility of pushing the converter back into the pump but when I initially installed it there was distance between the two. I pulled the converter out towards the flex plate. The transmission was bolted up at the time. It could be the case that I'm confused about how I could have pushed it back into the pump but my understanding is the only way for that to happen would be to align transmission and converter and bolt the converter first then tighten up the transmission to the bellhousing pushing the converter back to the pump and with heat and expansion busting those gears. If I am wrong, I would appreciate a proper explanation so I don't make the same mistake.

My understanding is:
Fluid in converter. Turn and push the converter until you feel it seat. Then back the other way until another seat. Then back the opposition direction, and same as the first, until another seat and it will not go any further. Align transmission and motor. Confirm there is a gap between the two and the converter spins freely upon bolting to transmission. Then pull converter out to the flex plate. The micrometer measures the distance between the two. If it is further than the .175 away, use shims, or washers, to close the distance to within. 125 and .175. Once the distance is between those numbers, bolt them together.

Transmission shop also said it is good to put some grease on the snout and place it in the pilot hole to make sure it goes far enough in. He also said to make sure it does not have the pilot bushing, which I confirmed, it does not.

Thanks,

Jason

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post #53 of 59 Old 09-30-2021, 02:13 PM
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I helped remove, rebuild, and reinstall transmissions at the Chrysler/ Plymouth/Dodge/ Jeep/Eagle dealer and we never did that. I’ve never seen or heard of shimming the converter away from the flexplate. Yes, the converter should drop in three times with the snout set back from the fron edge of the bell housing. Some converters have studs so there no way to spin it to verify it still turns but I’ve never done that either. If it turned before mounting to the engine it should still turn.
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post #54 of 59 Old 09-30-2021, 05:43 PM
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Thank you Jason! that is perfect. I am really Stoked you figured that out!

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post #55 of 59 Old 10-02-2021, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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OK. So quick update. I put in the torque converter, transmission, transfer case, and skid plate yesterday. The torque converter took some time because of the measurements. I first put a full quart of ATF in it. Light sheen of ATF on the neck and a small amount of grease on the snout and pilot on the rear of the crank where the snout sits. I then put the torque converter on the transmission pump. I think its called the stater or something like that. I aligned the converter and started turning it clockwise with inward pressure and felt it give about an inch or two when it was "accepted" onto the pump. I continued with the same procedure until it gave another couple inches. Continued until it gave a final couple inches. There was no way the pump could go any further back. My fingers could not get back there and since the TH400 has the cut out on the bottom of the transmission case I could see the converter was less than a cm from hitting it. I think took a micrometer and measured the distance from the face of the transmission case to the lug on the converter and got .787". I then measured from the bolt hole on the flex plate to the face of the bellhousing and got .591. Subtracted the two and got .196. The tolerance for GM TH400 is between .125 and .175. So I took 3 equal sized washers, measured with the micrometer, and they were .059". I then subtracted .059" from .196 and got .137" which puts me in between .125 and .175. Boy I hope I did that correct. After the measurements, I mated the transmission with the motor. Then the transfer case to the transmission. Then the skid plate. I was able to connect some other things while I was under there such as the shifting lever to the transmission, the kickdown wire, cooler lines, vacuum modulator, and dipstick (which always sucks). Then it was family time. Going to button her up by finishing the drive lines, speedo cable, transfer case shifting lever, lots more ATF and a prayer! Will update Sunday with good news, hopefully.

For most I'm sure this will be a boring read but in a way I am memorializing the process in case someone in the future needs a step by step. It was very confusing to me when the transmission guy explained it. I had to work through it myself. A couple reads on the internet helped too.

Thanks all,

Jason

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post #56 of 59 Old 10-03-2021, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JEEPFELLER View Post
Others will surely pipe in with your other info.

This may explain the radiator juice coming out.

Add cold coolant into the radiator or a similar closed system.

As the juice gets hotter---It gets bigger

Now your (lets say) 2 gallon system is being asked to hold 2-1/2 gallons

It must go somewhere, normally on the newer CJs, that would be back into the plastic coolant reservoir tank-----to be sucked back in as things cool back down.

For those of us with a '76-'78 (and older rigs) there is no reservoir----on my '77, it pipes down the side of the radiator and dumps on the ground.

Once the "Too Much" was forced out, there's no sucking it back in. Now my (let's say) 2 gallon system is a Pint?? Low.

Pretty much that's where it will comfortably and be just fine, until my weekly oil and coolant check pops up.

From years of experience, the lower level is "correct", and one will get used to that being the correct level.

Lower than that will require topping off-----adding more to the "correct level" will result in the however "Too Much" being forced out as we discussed previously.

------JEEPFELLER
I'm experiencing this exact symptom on my 76 CJ5 w 304 V8, 3 spd. I live up in the hills about 1,600 ft. above sea level so my CJ gets a work out coming back home. By the time I park in the garage and shut off the engine, foamy looking coolant drips out from the overfill rubber hose off the radiator. If it looks foamy does it mean I have air in the system and how do I get rid of it. Do you recommend I install a coolanrt reservoir bottle even if my 76 didn't come with it. Thanks much for your input guys.
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post #57 of 59 Old 10-03-2021, 04:19 PM
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If you have a bit of flat ground on final approach to the house, keep your revs up with a lower gear, which will help with engine cool down a bit more before shut down. In turn, keep an eye on your temp gauge as you drive, and if you are staying cool/normal, the coolant drip should stop when your "normal" level is reached.
As it is your rig, and you would feel better with installing an over flow bottle, then put one on. Or you can run it as designed, keeping an eye on everything to settle, and should run forever like it is
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post #58 of 59 Old 10-03-2021, 09:05 PM
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Does your gauge indicate its overheating?

Have you ever had the radiator professionally taken apart, vatted, then reassembled?

Maybe you have some mineral build up in it restricting the vanes?

I have found that Parts Store flush in a can is usually ineffective.

Go back to the top----see Post 6

------JEEPFELLER
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post #59 of 59 Old 10-03-2021, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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aljogav - I'm not sure why it is foamy? I have a coolant reservoir on my 78 and the fluid that is in the clear hose the coolant kit came with is not foamy. I do not think that air in the system makes it foamy, however, if you are at all concerned about that there is a really good funnel by Lisle that burps the system and allows coolant to enter in place of it with spillage or any technical knowledge needed. There are two different types, buy the cheaper one. Should be twenty dollars or so on Amazon. Of course, devildog may be correct that your temps may be high when you shut her down causing the issue? Good luck!

OK, great news...I buttoned her up, put fluid in her, she started right up and as I put it in reverse I felt a kick. Same throughout the rest of the gears. I installed everything correctly which I am ecstatic about. One thing did bum me out though...when I was going through the gears getting fluid through them and I got down to 1st the engine wanted to stall. I put it back up to park and it was fine. I checked the fluid level and I am 12 quarts in!! TH400 only calls for 10.5-11! The dipstick still reads 1 pint low but I didn't have anymore fluid. SO.....two things:

1 - My idle is good but I was never really able to set ignition timing at 3000 RPMs without vacuum advance. With vacuum advance at idle it was set at 10 BTDC. I think this is all wrong.

2 - Could my timing be off at idle under load (transmission in gear) causing it to want to stall in 2nd and 1st gear?

Sorry, one more thing, my dang transfer case keeps kicking it out of high into neutral. Could this be caused by low fluid? The transfer case was just gone through and had the chain tightened and the seals replaced. Shifter is tight and secure. Very frustrating because it was doing this before the rebuild.

Thank you all!

Jason

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