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post #16 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 12:32 PM
azzkicker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhammer View Post
At this RPM the load is the lightest on the valve train, and the lifters will spin allowing them to break-in properly. It’s OK to vary the RPM as you do this, just make sure it spends a lot of time around 2200 RPM for the first 30 minutes, and limit slow idling.
.
I don't recall hearing why that was done before. Thank you.

If the OP didn't have the additives, etc, and he's already done the break in, what should he do now?


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post #17 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 12:39 PM
Axhammer
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If he didn’t he should put the additive in the oil and run it at 2200 RPM for 30 minutes minimum. I think his engine will be fine, I have had more than one overheat during initial cam break-in, that went on to be great engines.

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post #18 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondawg80 View Post
Axhammer covered it Really well. You have done a whole lot of things all at once. As to the overheating problem it sounds like a combination of New tight engine/not in time, and air in the coolant system! The system must be brought up to temp, with the front of the jeep higher up to allow the air to burp up and out. The Howell System should have a return line back to the tank to relieve excess fuel, and it does require proper timing to run properly. Is the check engine light flashing? The over heat might have triggered a code. The ECM gets a lot of info from the MAP sensor, and the O2 sensor in the exhaust. Unless you have the off road kit......?
Good in. I thought about air in the coolant system...that was, of course, after the first overheating. I didn't know about the front of the Jeep needing to be higher to allow for the system to burp. Do you have an opinion to the top radiator hose being higher than the radiator itself? I thought that might be an issue too. I re-read the Howell directions and I am heading out right now to unhook the return line and blow it out to see if there is a clog. Good call. I do not have the check engine light hooked up...(head bowed in shame). I didn't have a light dedicated to it and didn't know where to hook it up. Now that I thinking about it, I just need any type of light that will take a positive and negative (now bowing head it regret). I do not have the off-road kit. I need the MAP and O2 to pass smog here in the amazing state of California (eye roll). Thanks for the good info...I will update in a while at the progress.
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post #19 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhammer View Post
The fuel pump should run for a couple seconds when you turn the key to Run, and then it stops running because it is up to pressure with no demand. With the engine running it will run non stop. You should be able to get all the info you need from Howell.com. And if you still have questions call them, they will help you out. It sounds like something simple is not wired right.

Did you put in an oil additive for the camshaft break-in? That is a must, and the 2000-2500 RPM upon first start-up, is VERY important. At this RPM the load is the lightest on the valve train, and the lifters will spin allowing them to break-in properly. It’s OK to vary the RPM as you do this, just make sure it spends a lot of time around 2200 RPM for the first 30 minutes, and limit slow idling.

I put a quart of Lucas Oil high ZDDP content for the break-in, when I fired up my little inline six recently.
The fuel pump is running great. Primed up no problem. I'm going to check the return line in a few minutes and I'll update my progress.

The engine shop gave me Maxima brand oil with 2X the Zinc for initial engine start up and first hour of operation. Then to change the filter. Then a hundred miles and change the filter. Then oil and filter after 500 miles.

The engine only ran for about 15 minutes before I had to shut her down. I will admit I'm a bit worried the cam didn't break in properly. I really don't know the repercussions if it didn't. Crossing my fingers. Thanks Axhammer.

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post #20 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Disconnected the return fuel line and put it into a gas can to collect runoff. The engine started right up with no problem. Increased RPM to about 2500 and it was not running smooth. My neighbor, who was controlling the throttle, said he kept having to increase pressure on the pedal to keep the RPM's up. Fuel was coming out of the injectors as they should. He shut it down out of caution something was wrong. Kinda panicked really. We talked about what happened and decided to start it up again and keep the RPM's up enough to time it thinking that was why it was running so crappy. It wouldn't start. It just feels like a fuel issue given when we disconnect the fuel pump, it wants to start. I took out a spark plug to see if it was wet, if it was running too rich. It wasn't. I attached a photo of it. It seems a bit dark for only being run twenty minutes or so, but opinions from the more experienced are welcomed. I disconnected the battery cables so the ECM can "restart" and forget what it has learned so far. That's per Howell instructions. Thanks so far!

Jason
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IMG_20210906_130203622.jpg   IMG_20210906_130153896.jpg  

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post #21 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 02:58 PM
Rondawg80
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I got my check eng light from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D848HV1...lig_dp_it&th=1
It needs a 1/2 hole, and easy 2 wire hook up. The wires on my kit (CA 258 kit) are a dull pink and dark brown color. as you need to pass smog, they will want a light with the little engine on it. As far as the upper hose......I have not seen one where it goes up from the radiator, then down to the thermostat. Maybe cut it down a bit to at least keep the hose level with the rad. The pics i attached rotated, Sorry. Picture them 90' clockwise The 2 wires by themselves coming at you are the chk eng light. then the light (led) then the MAP sensor. It should say in the instructions to place the MAP sensor behind the TBI unit, and slightly elevated. I am in the middle of a complete rewire so mine is NOT in it's proper position. The black disk that the chk eng light is in, is my version of the dash. I made a plate to hold a 3 3/8 standard sized speedometer, and I put the led lights around it. High beams, turn indicators, e-brake,4x4.....I hope this helps. Doing the Howell conversion can be a bit daunting, (even on an old engine!) but in the end it's Freaking AWESOME!
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_3576.jpg   IMG_3578.jpg   IMG_3579.jpg  

Last edited by Rondawg80; 09-06-2021 at 03:30 PM. Reason: wrong link
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post #22 of 59 Old 09-06-2021, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondawg80 View Post
I got my check eng light from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D848HV1...lig_dp_it&th=1
It needs a 1/2 hole, and easy 2 wire hook up. The wires on my kit (CA 258 kit) are a dull pink and dark brown color. as you need to pass smog, they will want a light with the little engine on it. As far as the upper hose......I have not seen one where it goes up from the radiator, then down to the thermostat. Maybe cut it down a bit to at least keep the hose level with the rad. The pics i attached rotated, Sorry. Picture them 90' clockwise The 2 wires by themselves coming at you are the chk eng light. then the light (led) then the MAP sensor. It should say in the instructions to place the MAP sensor behind the TBI unit, and slightly elevated. I am in the middle of a complete rewire so mine is NOT in it's proper position. The black disk that the chk eng light is in, is my version of the dash. I made a plate to hold a 3 3/8 standard sized speedometer, and I put the led lights around it. High beams, turn indicators, e-brake,4x4.....I hope this helps. Doing the Howell conversion can be a bit daunting, (even on an old engine!) but in the end it's Freaking AWESOME!
Thanks for the link Rondawg80. I just ordered it. My wires are the same color. I left them insulated for the moment. My neighbor is convincing me to cut the hose so it doesn't come up above the radiator just as an abundance of precaution. I did put the MAP sensor on the firewall above the TBI like Howell recommended. I'm hoping when I get the fuel issue figured out, the heating is normal in the beginning, and everything falls in place. (all fingers and toes crossed!)
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post #23 of 59 Old 09-07-2021, 06:01 PM
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So maybe cooling system had air pocket in it. Was upper radiator hose hot?
Fuel: fuel pressure regulator not sending fuel back to gas tank... Sounds light regulator diagram is bad sending fuel into the intake manifold

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post #24 of 59 Old 09-07-2021, 09:58 PM
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I've rebuilt a number of AMC V8s and that 25 min cam break-in period is always a "heart-in-the-throat" moment for me. I always had trouble with them overheating and burping before enough running time. I think it's always hard to get the air out of a new engine. Leaving the thermostat out is a good idea.

I always drill a 1/8" hole in the flat part of the thermostat so that a little air/water can still circulate before the thermostat opens (especially critical on the six that the vent hole is at the top). The factory thermostats had this vent hole, but I've never seen a replacement with one. If there is enough air in the system there may not be enough water flow to open the thermostat making things wore. I also always have a big house fan blowing at the grill. You can also burp air at the rear intake heater hose connection.

Also, you're trying to start and break-in a fresh rebuild with a lot of variables. I would start and break it in on a carburetor first. Things can go wrong with a carb too, but it's easier to diagnose and get running then switch back to the EFI. You don't want injectors washing down the cylinders on start-up.

And if you don't have a coolant overflow tank, you should so the the system isn't pulling air back in when it cools down
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post #25 of 59 Old 09-07-2021, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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The radiator hose was very hot!

I checked with Howell today who said the wire that comes from the tach filter (I think) needs to be changed if it the motor runs an MSD ignition system. Mine does. He told me to check for the wire in PIN 8 on the small harness going to the ECM. When I was on the phone with him I figured I would know what he was talking about since he didn't specify. If it was purple, it is wrong, orange is correct. I get home and there are two rows of wires on that harness and there are two orange and one purple (hands up in a confused emoji). I will have to call back tomorrow.

I did disconnect the return line where the Howell fuel line meets the original fuel hard line at the frame. I cranked the motor and there is, what I think, a lot of fuel coming out of it. I am going to buy a fuel pressure gauge tomorrow as well and test the incoming fuel from the fuel pump and the return pressure as well. Incoming should be 12-13 and return should be 0-3. I told him the Howell manual says return should be no more than 5-6 and he said that was wrong. Spoke with Phillip. He seems to be the resident expert over there. *He also said the MSD sends multiple spark where as the stock distributor sends a single spark. If the wrong wire, or tach filter, is in there the ECM thinks the motor is running at four times the RPM so it will dump that much fuel. For example, if the motor is running at 1k RPM, but if MSD sends three sparks in stead of one, the ECM thinks it is running at 3k RPM possibly flooding the engine. I'm really hoping that is the problem. I'll update when I speak with Howell and pressure test both fuel lines.

Starts up no problem when it is cold. After running for a few minutes, it won't start again.

Thanks everyone,

Jason
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post #26 of 59 Old 09-07-2021, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buster51 View Post
I've rebuilt a number of AMC V8s and that 25 min cam break-in period is always a "heart-in-the-throat" moment for me. I always had trouble with them overheating and burping before enough running time. I think it's always hard to get the air out of a new engine. Leaving the thermostat out is a good idea.

I always drill a 1/8" hole in the flat part of the thermostat so that a little air/water can still circulate before the thermostat opens (especially critical on the six that the vent hole is at the top). The factory thermostats had this vent hole, but I've never seen a replacement with one. If there is enough air in the system there may not be enough water flow to open the thermostat making things wore. I also always have a big house fan blowing at the grill. You can also burp air at the rear intake heater hose connection.

Also, you're trying to start and break-in a fresh rebuild with a lot of variables. I would start and break it in on a carburetor first. Things can go wrong with a carb too, but it's easier to diagnose and get running then switch back to the EFI. You don't want injectors washing down the cylinders on start-up.

And if you don't have a coolant overflow tank, you should so the the system isn't pulling air back in when it cools down
That's good info. I wish I would have read more forums on initial start up. I felt ready but didn't think about air being such an issue. Noob mistake. I do have the stock carb. If I can't figure out the fuel issue...going back to the carb is a good idea. So is the house fan. It is good to know that over heating is somewhat normal.

Good insight buster51.

Jason
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post #27 of 59 Old 09-08-2021, 09:37 AM
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You must feel like you are herding cats trying to chase down all these gremlins at once. Im guessing you added the TBI during the rebuild? Don't get discouraged, you are taking on a lot of work all at once. I had the same thought as Buster51 that it might have been better to do the initial fire up and tuning with your carb as opposed to taking it all on at once.

I have only ever rebuilt one AMC V-8. It was also a 360 in a wagoneer. That was long before I knew about the AMC air bubble issue. Before there were forums like this one. It ran like a scalded dog but I couldn't stop it from overheating. I ended up trading it for another vehicle because of that problem. Now I realize that a small hole in the thermostat could have solved the problem. Had the same issue with my CJ-5 recently and the hole in the thermostat did the trick. I also jacked up one end of the vehicle to help the flow and no overheating since.

Your recent report makes it sound like you may need a specific amount of return line flow. ??

Good luck eliminating Gremlins. Im sure you will get them sorted out.
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post #28 of 59 Old 09-08-2021, 12:04 PM
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On many engines you can remove the radiator hose off the top of the thermostat housing after draining the radiator level down into a bucket. You can then look into the neck of the thermostat housing to see that the spring is facing into the motor (or into the intake manifold...depending on the vehicle) and not facing the direction you are looking from. It is sometimes hard to see but with a good light it can be done and you do not have to replace the gasket this way.
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post #29 of 59 Old 09-08-2021, 01:32 PM
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This style of funnel has worked really well for me to get air out of the cooling system.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c...e+funnel&pos=1
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post #30 of 59 Old 09-11-2021, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
JVino
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Update...

Bought a vacuum pressure tester and a fuel pressure tester. Fuel pressure is great at 11 PSI. Vacuum is sitting at 15, however, it is currently idling at 500 RPM's. I am having trouble getting the idle higher. Trying for 7-800 at least. Howell said the vacuum at idle should be between 18-21. Vacuum should go up with a higher idle right? Or is this a sign I have a vacuum leak somewhere?

The jeep started up unbelievably well cold. I bought the check engine light Rondawg recommended. No check engine lights so my sensors are good. When the jeep warmed up the idling got worse. It was surging a bit. Tried to stay up then dipped and continued in that fashion. Timing the ignition is proving difficult.

Confirming total timing should be done first, then idle timing?

Thanks!

Jason

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