Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner

CJ5 or CJ7? VIN Tub switch? Assistance plz

4K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  northfeather 
#1 ·
Howdy ya all
Chad here in Montana. I thought I posted this earlier, so pardon me if it's out there and I don't see it?

This is my 5th CJ over 40+ years and I need some more knowledgable insight.
I just bought this rig and my gut feeling was that it was a CJ7 and was listed wrong as a CJ5.
However, the VIN plate which is 'screwed on' to the firewall(see photo) indicates a...
'72 CJ5 w/ a 304 3spd
However, unless I'm way out of practice? This is a CJ7 w/ a 258 4spd
The wheelbase via a tape measure on the floor from cap to lockout appears 93-93.5". CJ7 specs, correct?
I'm really looking for clarity please. I have not registered it yet and I'm sure it will go through just fine BUT...

Any insight would be appreciated. Who knows, maybe I'm all wrong and ya all will show me?
Can I cross reference the engine block to axle or frame number somehow to see what this unit is?
Thx
chad
 

Attachments

See less See more
2
#2 ·
That door well is CJ7 all day long. The CJ5 has that hip catch, so you didn't slide out.
Does the VIN tag from fire wall match the one on the dash?
Somebody missing a CJ7 somewhere?
Carcass of a CJ5 missing his fire wall plate?
 

Attachments

#3 ·
Uh oh....:eek:

So it has a straight 6 258 in it?

That's definitely a CJ7 tub, and if you have the straight 6, most likely the front clip as well, as the 72 nose want long enough to fit the straight 6.

Does the frame have any cut/extension marks? Got more pictures? Shock towers, axle widths, etc

I'd be very leery of this one, unfortunately, because it is definitely NOT what the title says.

Hoss
 
#22 ·
Uh oh....:eek:

So it has a straight 6 258 in it?

That's definitely a CJ7 tub, and if you have the straight 6, most likely the front clip as well, as the 72 nose want long enough to fit the straight 6.

Does the frame have any cut/extension marks? Got more pictures? Shock towers, axle widths, etc

I'd be very leery of this one, unfortunately, because it is definitely NOT what the title says.

Hoss
1972 was actually the first year AMC made changes after buying Kaiser in late 1970. One was the extended nose for the CJ5, CJ6 to fit the new motors inline 232, inline 258, 304v8.....my first Jeep was a 1975, the last of that body series (72-75) with the 304.
 
#4 ·
JoonHoss

Looks like side pipes on there to me!

Any I. D. on top of the windshield wiper motor?

1976 was the introduction of the CJ-7

It's possible pieces and parts were used out of a salvage yard to repair it.

-----JEEPFELLER
 
#6 ·
Thanks for the confirmation. I've had three CJ5's and it didn't add up to me either.
It's CJ7 all the way IMO. Just not the vin tag. There's no number around the wiper motor or the drivers door pillar.
Someone pulled a slick one at some point!?
 

Attachments

#7 ·
Hope you bought it with a check, and can stop it at the bank, as this looks like trouble written all over it in more ways than one!
Bought from someone you know?
In Montana, this could retire to a Ranch out there and never see a legal road the rest of its life, but if you want to drive it legally on a public road......I wish you luck Chad.
 
#9 ·
Looks like a 1980s CJ7, maybe 1983, and not a 1972 hammer with a new shaft and a new head.

You have been hornswoggled.
 
#10 ·
Yup, with the Joop stamping it would be a later wide track CJ-7. Keith has stated the stamping changed some time in 1983-1984, if I remember correctly. The roll bar and passenger seat are from the same era as well.

I like those racing wheels on your blast cabinet, are they Magnesium?
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the insight Bagus. I'm good on the Jeep though, it's just a good clean Jeep that needs gone through and different paint! Whenever I sell it...I'll just disclose what it is and if they're not up for it, they'll buy a different one.
The guy I bought it from said he'll gladly give me my money back if I don't want it.

"The roll bar and passenger seat are from the same era as well."---Thanks Ax, that helps narrow it down. And yes, they're Magnesium:)
 
#12 ·
I would love to see the firewall. It must have required some serious surgery to put that together.

Easy signs it isn't a 72 (beyond the obvious CJ7 tub) for those of you who are interested........
AMC 20 rear axle (round cover)
GM collapsible steering column with small padded wheel
Sway bar
plastic valve cover
Wiper motor inside the cab
Retractable shoulder restraints

There should be a partial VIN stamped on the frame rails. Might take a look on the top area on the drivers side frame rail in front. Seems it was eight or nine of the last digits.
 
#13 ·
Thanks Jeepdaddy for those extra items for identifying. My last CJ7 was an '80 but I wouldn't have known the difference in those details.
Really all that I was after was confirmation of me not missing something in my thoughts of this being a CJ7.
The rest is pretty simple/easy really...someone pulled a fast one somewhere in history! They simply swapped tags and titled it. That's it.
Frame rail tag naturally doesn't match because there's no way it could...CJ5 vs CJ7.
It was sold at an estate sale two owners back and it was one of four Jeeps in the sale(that's the updated story just received).
Thanks for ya all helping confirm!!!
 

Attachments

#14 ·
Data tags held on with screws, not the tamper proof fastenings.

The inlet manifold is aluminium which dates the part to 1983-1986. There is a roundel on the top surface of the manifold with the casting date.
 
#15 ·
Left or right of the issue, it looks like you got a nice Jeep. I would think the worth of a 72 CJ5 would be less than an early 80's 7 so that confusion should perhaps help the price.

You can contact your DMV and see what their process is for registering a rod, kit car, or other vehicles that don't have a vin. Being in Montana, I'm going to bet the process is a simple one.
In the end you can exercise your "ignorance" and register it as is and keep on trucking......


Other date related points to check beyond Bagus's suggestion:
The axle BOM.
Inspect all the light lenses. They have a manufacture date on them that is usually within a year of the vehicle.

Identifying the transmission.
A tight inspection of the existing emissions equipment. There may be some components that are year specific.
While none of these are precise on their own, an aggregate of them can help narrow the manufacturer date.
 
#16 ·
Thanks Bagus...yep, the VIN plate screws were one of the red flags when I went to pick it up. Didn't matter to me...I was buying it right (not at some inflated '72 price). Thanks for the other tidbit I didn't know. Roundel photo attached.
And Jeepdaddy thanks for those others as well. The tranny id is on my list. There's an hour of pressure washing that's needed before all those items!

I'll register it today as I purchased it. It doesn't bother me one bit. And as mentioned, if I sell one day, I'll share the little bit that I know in the advertisement. 90% plus percent of Jeep owners won't give a hoot if they know up front...IMO.
 

Attachments

#17 ·
Think twice before doing the registration. It is illegal in 50 states and in D.C. do so. You may run the risk of confiscation and being charged with a felony. This how chop shops sell stolen cars. They buy a salvage yard vehicle and steal one to match.

My wife bought our 74 without a title. It came from a state that didn't issue titles for vehicles over 25 years old. To register it our DMV had to verify the VIN in two locations. Luckily the dash VIN sticker is still readable. The clerk was happy she didn't have to go under to find a number on the frame. She had a book with pictures as where to look. The VIN had to clear research before we got a title. Any LEO with a basic knowledge of Jeeps will know the difference between a CJ5 and a CJ7.
 
#18 ·
Thanks Bob
It already has a "clean" Montana title and there are no vehicle inspections at registration (still old fashioned up here in some regards). City folk are moving in by droves though and catalytic converters are being stolen now...so Montana is on it's way out soon too.
The Jeep is what it is. I've had both numbers checked and neither are reported/listed as stolen and the rest is just a story/history. Nothing has been done in malice during this current transaction and that's good enough for me.
 
#19 ·
Wish people wouldn’t post their full VIN or LP.

You can also pull the tank if your so inclined...on the under side of the “S” shaped tank cross member almost in the center of the upper flat face is a stamped series of numbers and letters.

Example, if yours was an 84 (looks like an 82 or newer, wide track) it will look like this :

# ## 84 #
## #
 
#24 ·
Could you give me an article in a news publication or e publication that says someone was arrested or their vehicle “confiscated” for having a tub from one vintage attached to the frame of another?
Or the docket numbers of a criminal or civil case? Involving old Jeeps. ? Tub of different frame? you can buy those vin plate rivets online. Guess everyone who made a Meyers Manx dune buggie in the 60s is doing life in Q?
 
#25 ·
Could you give me an article in a news publication or e publication that says someone was arrested or their vehicle "confiscated" for having a tub from one vintage attached to the frame of another?
Most recent I read about

https://www.kctv5.com/news/investig...cle_0101ae92-0c13-11ec-9049-f7c6541ca4f9.html

And that's for just not having it attached with the factory style rivets.

Now, that said, certainly there are states where it doesn't matter as much, and. Oddities (vehicle in a deer lease only) where it may not matter as well, but the fact remains that you can have serious issues regulating and or selling a vehicle with the wrong VIN/title, and it is illegal.

I have spent a LOT of time at our local state patrol vehicle/vessel inspection station due to work (long story, but it has to do with drug seized vehicles), and they absolutely can and do check the vin plate across title, as well as frame markings, especially for wrecked, non titles, and out of state vehicles looking to register. I have personally seen them impound a vehicle (which is then forfeited thru court, and typically crushed, or returned to an insurance agency) due to a mis titled or questionable VIN.

It absolutely is illegal
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511

In the case of a Meyers Manx, or any of the other many kit/custom built cars, you have to have the proper documents and go through state patrol inspection in order to get them legally titled. Same goes for reconstructed vehicles.

Hoss
 
#28 ·
Is that an “old Jeep “ with a tub swap? No it is not.

I am not talking about someone’s classic Vette or Jerry Seinfeld’s Porsche Speedster. The Nevada DMV charges $50-100 to register a 60s to 70s CJ5. If it is registered in rural Nevada or over 40 years old it is smog exempt. The DMV does not bother with someone putting recycled body parts on an old frame. Give me an article or docket number of some case of someone putting a kit body or different body on some old frame getting the book thrown at them. High end thefts or vin fraud is one thing - antidotal accounts of “I heard of a guy blah blah…”
 
#32 ·
Is that an "old Jeep " with a tub swap? No it is not.
"
I recognize that my first hand accounts of VIN discrepancies and fraud don't fit your narrative, and I obviously don't know the particular person and court case you are looking to have quoted; the fact is that the OP has a different year /make and model Jeep than what his title says.

Hoss
 
#29 ·
It is a news story about a classic Corvette- do they use “tubs”??? Replacing damaged body parts with nos , recycled or reproduction parts is not “altering a vin number”. and is not illegal.

Please provide Article or docket number of a person swapping/replacing a Jeep tub being prosecuted of having their vehicle seized. ?? If it happens all the time you certainly can find one. DMVs generally have better things to do the chasing down someone who cobbles together some body on frame vehicle. Is this vehicle illegal? Call the FBI !!
 

Attachments

#30 ·
The VIN stamped into the frame is only a partial, no serial numbers. So can't be used for registration, it will give info on year, engine, trans and model as it left the factory.
As long as it is a clear title, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
#31 ·
If you were to go through a traffic check in this area and encounter a certain Trooper you'd go to jail and he'd impound your Jeep when he saw your registration. The same would happen if my fellow Jeep club member Drew who is also a Deputy. Don't assume that just because the paperwork is correct that there aren't LEOs who don't know the difference between a CJ5 and a CJ7.

Buying a wrecked car at an insurance auction and then have someone steal an identical car and putting the VIN on the stolen car is how folks legally sell stolen cars.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top