CJ with 350 TBI running hot HW speeds uphill - Page 4 - JeepForum.com
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post #46 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 05:44 AM
Matt1981CJ7
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Originally Posted by Dryseals View Post
What kind of radiator are you running Matt?

I'm still of the thought the largers tubes of the Griffen do not create enough turbulence and dj6772's setup semi proves that.
I'm running a 3-row aluminum from Champion.

Matt



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post #47 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 12:16 PM
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I had a Griffin in a 70 Chevy 3/4 ton. That thing was awesome. Never overheated no matter what I did too it.

The only other thing I had to do was to add a recovery tank. Without it I would lose to much coolant and would overheat, until I refilled it. A recovery tank solved this issue.
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post #48 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 01:26 PM
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I'm running a 4 row copper brass radiator.

I would not change to a "high flow" thermostat.

If the coolant moves too fast in the engine and radiator there will not be enough heat transfer.

As far as the tube size,
Smaller tubes should equal more tubes.
More tubes equals more surface area.
More surface area equals more heat transfer.


That's my $.02

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post #49 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jcal73 View Post
I'm running a 4 row copper brass radiator.

I would not change to a "high flow" thermostat.

If the coolant moves too fast in the engine and radiator there will not be enough heat transfer.

As far as the tube size,
Smaller tubes should equal more tubes.
More tubes equals more surface area.
More surface area equals more heat transfer.


That's my $.02
Please don't tell any one that kind of "theory", they might believe you.

The faster the coolant moves, the better it is for cooling.
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post #50 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 06:47 PM
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post #51 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 06:54 PM
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Anxiously waiting an update from the OP.

Matt


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post #52 of 82 Old 02-25-2016, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dryseals View Post
Please don't tell any one that kind of "theory", they might believe you.

The faster the coolant moves, the better it is for cooling.
Yeah, another one of those theories that should probably be put to rest. If that were the case, all those engines we've ran across over the years that had the radiator pulled out of them would be overheating instead of stopping shy of ~140*.


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post #53 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dryseals View Post
Please don't tell any one that kind of "theory", they might believe you.

The faster the coolant moves, the better it is for cooling.
????

It's not theory, it's fact.
I would like for you to explain to me how "turbulence" cools the engine?


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post #54 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jcal73 View Post
????

It's not theory, it's fact.
I would like for you to explain to me how "turbulence" cools the engine?

Haven't you ever stirred a bowl of chili that was too hot to eat in order to cool it down? Same thing.

I believe air speed thru the radiator, and surface area of the radiator, are bigger factors than coolant speed, however.

I'm sure our "experts" will correct me, if I'm wrong.

Matt
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post #55 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jcal73 View Post
????

It's not theory, it's fact.
I would like for you to explain to me how "turbulence" cools the engine?

First things first, it’s a closed system, that is there is no external coolant entering in the system from an outside source. So for any coolant that remains in the radiator, coolant must also remain in the engine block. Second, heat moves from hot to cold so the coolant will get a lot hotter if it remains in the engine block, which means you now have more heat to remove with the same radiator.

Two types of flow we use in the industrial world, laminar and turbulent. Laminar is a nice smooth flow so smooth that it sets up boundry layers in the inner walls of the piping or tubing and the liquid being cooled does not come into contact with the cooling source. Turbulent flow is not smooth, it’s very violent.

Heat transfer…Conduction….Conduction is the transfer of heat between substances that are in direct contact with each other. And what is heat? Heat is a form of energy, and when it comes into contact with a physical body, it makes the atoms and molecules move in the contact body. Once atoms or molecules are moving, they collide with other atoms or molecules, making them move too. These, then bump into other molecules and make them move, too. In this way, the heat is transferred through a material. You will also notice, in most cases, the better the electrical properties of a material, the better the heat conduction of the material.

Pure water is not a good conductor of electricity and believe it or not neither is your coolant. Coolant has chemicals in it to stop corrosion and what is this corrosion they try and stop, dissimilar metals conducting between each other, galvanic corrosion. So we are looking more towards the conduction of heat, via a temperature differential and that needs to be done with conduction, ie. direct contact. And while water is considered the best conductor of heat, we have all watched a pot of water take forever to boil, there no turbulence in the pot, but once it starts to boil a bit, it’s not long before it get to a raging boil…turbulence…..

Turbulence causes more direct contact with all the atoms and molecules and better heat transfer.

Now you may not believe me, I have tried to explain it in the best laymans terms I can, but having worked in the petrochemical industry now for the last 37 years dealing with things like heat transfer, I think I have a bit of a clue...I could be wrong, but I do know for sure your theory is incorrect.
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post #56 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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OP here. I have put in a hi flo thermostat but haven't had a chance to take it up to the mountains. Hopefully in the next few days I'll have a chance and I'll update the post. Thanks again for all the input.
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post #57 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryseals View Post
First things first, it’s a closed system, that is there is no external coolant entering in the system from an outside source. So for any coolant that remains in the radiator, coolant must also remain in the engine block. Second, heat moves from hot to cold so the coolant will get a lot hotter if it remains in the engine block, which means you now have more heat to remove with the same radiator.

Two types of flow we use in the industrial world, laminar and turbulent. Laminar is a nice smooth flow so smooth that it sets up boundry layers in the inner walls of the piping or tubing and the liquid being cooled does not come into contact with the cooling source. Turbulent flow is not smooth, it’s very violent.

Heat transfer…Conduction….Conduction is the transfer of heat between substances that are in direct contact with each other. And what is heat? Heat is a form of energy, and when it comes into contact with a physical body, it makes the atoms and molecules move in the contact body. Once atoms or molecules are moving, they collide with other atoms or molecules, making them move too. These, then bump into other molecules and make them move, too. In this way, the heat is transferred through a material. You will also notice, in most cases, the better the electrical properties of a material, the better the heat conduction of the material.

Pure water is not a good conductor of electricity and believe it or not neither is your coolant. Coolant has chemicals in it to stop corrosion and what is this corrosion they try and stop, dissimilar metals conducting between each other, galvanic corrosion. So we are looking more towards the conduction of heat, via a temperature differential and that needs to be done with conduction, ie. direct contact. And while water is considered the best conductor of heat, we have all watched a pot of water take forever to boil, there no turbulence in the pot, but once it starts to boil a bit, it’s not long before it get to a raging boil…turbulence…..

Turbulence causes more direct contact with all the atoms and molecules and better heat transfer.

Now you may not believe me, I have tried to explain it in the best laymans terms I can, but having worked in the petrochemical industry now for the last 37 years dealing with things like heat transfer, I think I have a bit of a clue...I could be wrong, but I do know for sure your theory is incorrect.



That makes my head hurt!

I said it was my $.02

You do what you want, but a high flow thermostat isn't going to get the OP's problem solved.
A good fan shroud and fan combo most likely will.

We all know folks who have been doing "X" for a ton of years.
Heck I've been doing what I do for years too.

Don't be so condescending in your responses.

We are all here because we love old jeeps and want to learn from and help others when we can.

I meant nothing directly bad towards you.

I've not been really active on here lately and I will tell ya this forum has changed.
It's not for the better either.

I'm not going to argue with a wikipedia ninja.

I'm waiting for the OP to respond.

Jeff

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post #58 of 82 Old 02-26-2016, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jcal73 View Post


That makes my head hurt!

I said it was my $.02

You do what you want, but a high flow thermostat isn't going to get the OP's problem solved.
A good fan shroud and fan combo most likely will.

We all know folks who have been doing "X" for a ton of years.
Heck I've been doing what I do for years too.

Don't be so condescending in your responses.

We are all here because we love old jeeps and want to learn from and help others when we can.

I meant nothing directly bad towards you.

I've not been really active on here lately and I will tell ya this forum has changed.
It's not for the better either.

I'm not going to argue with a wikipedia ninja.

I'm waiting for the OP to respond.

All I can say, you are the one who posted about the speed of the coolant being too fast to allow for proper cooling. To me, that's steering people in the wrong direction and any first year engineering student would tell you the same.

And yes I come here to help others and I do love the old vehicles. I've just never wanted to put out false information, which you did. Now if you can prove me wrong, go for it.

But then we have to ask...why do so many manufacturers make high flow water pumps???? Well maybe its because they just didn't consult you before they decided to design these things....if they only knew what you do...
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post #59 of 82 Old 02-27-2016, 06:10 AM
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Any updates from the OP?

Matt


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post #60 of 82 Old 02-27-2016, 12:34 PM
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Excellent explanation IMO Dryseals!


To dumb it down, turbulent flow allows more of the coolant to be in direct contact with the surfaces it is trying to cool (coolant passages in engine) and the surfaces that are trying to cool the coolant (radiator tubes/fins).
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