ARP head bolts 'Slipping'? - JeepForum.com
 5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
ARP head bolts 'Slipping'?

Hey Guys,

I installed the head/gasket on my 83 Cj 258 that I am rebuilding. I used the ARP head bolt kit, and arp ultra torque lube.

Per instructions I torqued each bolt to 70 fts lbs in increments.

On a couple of the bolts I got a strange slipping sensation, just a moment, then they torqued up just fine.

The instructions that came with my kit said to use arp ultra torque, on the threads, and under the head of the bolt and washer.

I did exactly that.

Now im finding that online there are guys (mostly LS guys) saying to never use the lube under the washer as it turns it into a bearing, causing a slipping sensation leading to over torque. Even tho the instructions say to do so.

Anyways, curious if anyone has experienced this. Should I pull it all back apart, clean it all up and start over without lube under the washer?

I was just doing what the instructions said, which is what the machine shop that did my engine said to do, but the slipping feeling was a slight unsettling.

thanks

Kov

EDIT: i should note that i looked into whether I was given the correct instructions. I was. I did read the instructions for the LS kits, and those do say to keep the washer dry where it contacts the head to prevent spinning. However, the instructions with mine said to lube the washer, I am unsure why.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 12:48 PM
sonnychiss
Registered User
1978 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Southern Illinois
Posts: 289
I have a friend who had the same issue, not sure if he was using the same kit but he had a very similar experience. Lube was so slippery that the he wasn't reaching torque and he was sure he was over stretching the bolts. As I recall he started over with regular motor oil. I don't have the tech background to make a recommendation, just passing on someone else's experience for reference.
sonnychiss is offline  
post #3 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnychiss View Post
I have a friend who had the same issue, not sure if he was using the same kit but he had a very similar experience. Lube was so slippery that the he wasn't reaching torque and he was sure he was over stretching the bolts. As I recall he started over with regular motor oil. I don't have the tech background to make a recommendation, just passing on someone else's experience for reference.
Yea, I mean the ultra torque is the only lube they recommend. I was able to reach 70 ft lbs. On the couple bolts that I felt a "slip" on, was only brief and then i was able to hit spec. So it really is probably fine. If it would have kept slipping, then i would be even more scared, but since it stopped slipping, and was able to be torqued, then the torque should still be accurate right?

My heart sunk a little when i first felt the slip, then i told myself, ARP is supposed to be the best in the business, trust the process lol.

Im just trying to understand why with mine lubing the washer is in the instructions, vs with other kits it says dont.

I sent a message to ARP tech and will see if they recommend starting over.

kov


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
 
post #4 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 06:23 PM
keith460
Web Wheeler
 
keith460's Avatar
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Doylestown, PA
Posts: 9,436
I used ARP head bolts a couple of years ago when installing a new head gasket. Used their recommended lube on the bolts and washer as per instructions and don't remember this being a problem. After all, the bolts shank will stretch a little during torque and most applications would want the head of the bolt to slide on the washer so you get the right amount of load on the threads when torque specification is met.


head-assembly-parts-1-.jpg
OrangeCJ-5 and Nor Cal CJ5 like this.

.
1984 CJ-7 Renegade
__________________
keith460 is offline  
post #5 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 06:37 PM
Axhammer
Web Wheeler
 
Axhammer's Avatar
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Moyock
Posts: 2,363
Garage
I don’t know why you are comparing TTY bolts (LS engines) to the bolts in your 258. They are totally different requirements due to different technology.

If you follow ARP instructions you may get that slipping sensation, that’s normal. Make sure you use a quality Q wrench that meets the needs of the Q you are applying, and then make the pull slow and smooth. You will get used to the feel after you have done is several times.
Nor Cal CJ5 likes this.

Why do I own a CJ? I like to “Balance the wrench and the steering wheel”
1985 CJ-7 Sebring Red, White hardtop, 284 CID inline six (4.7) TF 999 auto
2020 JLU Black, Black hardtop, EcoDiesel, 35’s on 2” Mopar lift
View my Pontiac in my profile
Axhammer is offline  
post #6 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith460 View Post
I used ARP head bolts a couple of years ago when installing a new head gasket. Used their recommended lube on the bolts and washer as per instructions and don't remember this being a problem. After all, the bolts shank will stretch a little during torque and most applications would want the head of the bolt to slide on the washer so you get the right amount of load on the threads when torque specification is met.


Attachment 4009837

Hi Keith,

Yea I know the head of the bolt is supposed to move free on the washer, The slip I felt was the washer itself turning, slipping where it meets the head.

Do you remember if you put lube on both sides of the washer? I did as the instructions just said lube up the washer... Im not sure if its worth picking up a new gasket and starting over.

Thanks

kov


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
post #7 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axhammer View Post
I don’t know why you are comparing TTY bolts (LS engines) to the bolts in your 258. They are totally different requirements due to different technology.

If you follow ARP instructions you may get that slipping sensation, that’s normal. Make sure you use a quality Q wrench that meets the needs of the Q you are applying, and then make the pull slow and smooth. You will get used to the feel after you have done is several times.
Axhammer!

Thanks, In all my little experience, a slip feeling especially up around the 50-60 ft lbs generally is bad news. I had no idea it could be normal. I did not realize the LS ones were tty.

The LS guys were the only ones that brought up the "slipping" sensation, and they either damaged there head, or pulled thread, or broke bolts. I was worried for me it meant over torqueing somehow, or over stretching the bolt.

I guess for me then, is it normal that I did not get the slip on all the bolts, only a couple?

thank

kov


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
post #8 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 07:13 PM
mudbfun
Registered User
1973 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovic View Post
Hey Guys,


On a couple of the bolts I got a strange slipping sensation, just a moment, then they torqued up just fine.

I think that is normal. Even with old school hardened bolts. Small variations in bolt alignment, head alignment, thread imperfections etc. etc. presents a progression toward a perfectly seated and torqued head. As long as they eventually torque up like they are supposed to I wouldnt worry about it.
mudbfun is offline  
post #9 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 07:16 PM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by mudbfun View Post
I think that is normal. Even with old school hardened bolts. Small variations in bolt alignment, head alignment, thread imperfections etc. etc. presents a progression toward a perfectly seated and torqued head. As long as they eventually torque up like they are supposed to I wouldnt worry about it.

Yea I did get them to torque up. I just never experience that before.... Like when I say slip, it went from 60 ft lbs of resistance to very little resistance on the bolt for like maybe a quarter turn or so then grabbed on again....... was the weirdest thing.

thanks

kov


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
post #10 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 08:21 PM
keith460
Web Wheeler
 
keith460's Avatar
1984 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Doylestown, PA
Posts: 9,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovic View Post
Hi Keith,

Do you remember if you put lube on both sides of the washer? I did as the instructions just said lube up the washer.

I only lubed the top surface where the bolts head would make contact on top of the washer. You don't want the washer to rotate as it bears down onto the cylinder head.

.
1984 CJ-7 Renegade
__________________
keith460 is offline  
post #11 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
kovic
Registered User
 
kovic's Avatar
1983 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Grand Rapids
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith460 View Post
I only lubed the top surface where the bolts head would make contact on top of the washer. You don't want the washer to rotate as it bears down onto the cylinder head.
lol well crap. Ya know, as i was doing it i thought that, and re-read the instructions like 3 times, and concluded that ARP know what they are doing, so I did it.

Should I pull all the bolts out, get a new gasket and start over. Or pull one at a time, clean the lube off the washer and torque it back in, then move on to the next?

Do you think the bolt is ruined?

I appreciate it

thanks

Kov


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kovic is offline  
post #12 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 08:45 PM
JEEPFELLER
Registered User
 
JEEPFELLER's Avatar
1977 CJ5 
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: W. South Carolina
Posts: 1,615
Garage
I reckon I would leave it alone!

When I torque a head in steps, SNUG then I go 30 / 60/ 105 ----of course that is 30 around the sequence/ then 60 around the sequence/ then 105 around the sequence.

We want the bolts to turn at least a 1/2 turn or better before my torque wrench clicks. I also want to do one continuous pull, then it click, no stopping, insure you have free area to make that "Pull".

"Clicking" with minimal or no bolt moving leaves you with an inaccurate torque. I hope you are abiding by the sequence, too many folks, just crank away, from one end to the other!

This page is from my '77 factory manual (PDF)

----JEEPFELLER
Attached Thumbnails
cylinder head.jpg  
JEEPFELLER is offline  
post #13 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 09:04 PM
Shark_13
Registered User
1998 TJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Post falls
Posts: 2,148
Garage
If you followed the pattern and instructions, and used a decent wrench, you should be good, no worries.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Get out and explore.
Shark_13 is offline  
post #14 of 19 Old 09-26-2021, 09:36 PM
BrutusBlue
Senior Member
1982 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 968
If you reached torque spec then you should be fine.

ARP can not be compared to TTY bolts. ARP are reusable, are not aTTY bolt and follow a different and much simpler torque process, along with lube. LS stock bolts are TTY and installed dry, big difference.

I have reassembled several LS motors. I say reassembled and use the word build lightly because I think the word build should only be left to good machine shops that truly do rebuild motors in areas where machining for a spun bearing for instance is more than just reassembling. I recently diagnosed a problem with an LS7 I tore apart. The shop will hopefully be able to machine the crank for me and I will reassemble the rest. Just a picky play on words for me I guess.

If I think an LS customer will never remove the heads on a “build” then I go back with stock bolts. No point in spending more money that will serve no purpose. On all my personally owned LS motors, I have gone with ARP only because I know I might change things up in the future. For ARP I am guilty of entertaining the idea that the washer should be lightly sanded or scored on the head side, then lubed on the bolt side. Despite other opinions, I think that it is likely a myth. The LS community for example is full of all sorts of “this is the best way to do things now” idea and caution should be exercised.

I would follow ARP instructions and if they revise the way the washer should be lubed then so be it. Your machine shop was right in my opinion.

I too have noticed the slip on a couple of bolts on a modified LS2 (aluminum block) I built for myself where I lubed both sides of the washer. It was definitely a hair raising moment. I still reached spec torque with no problems.

After checking with a few folks, the consensus is if reaching full torque using ARP bolts and their recommendations then you have nothing to worry about.

Ramble over.
BrutusBlue is offline  
post #15 of 19 Old 09-27-2021, 04:28 AM
Shawn Watson
Registered User
 
Shawn Watson's Avatar
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 8,045
If you want to pull one at a time and see how things feel without any lube on the bottom of the washer for a little piece of mind, I say go for it. You're working with a big chunk of cast iron and stout fasteners rather than aluminum so you're not going to hurt anything.

When I used ARP fasteners on my iron block/aluminum head 383, I used engine oil and didn't oil under the washers so I've never felt that funky slip that I can imagine messes with your head afterwards.


Shawn

Live in a way that those who know you but don't know God will come to know God because they know you.
Shawn Watson is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome