83 CJ7 Ignition Starter Solenoid - JeepForum.com
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 17 Old 10-03-2016, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
83 CJ7 Ignition Starter Solenoid

I tried to start my CJ7 today after sitting for 3 weeks for some body work. WHen I first turned the key it cranked ok. Then when I turned it again, nothing. Radio etc work fine and battery shows 13+ volts with a meter. I tried shorting across solenoid posts and nothing. Bought a new solenoid put it in and when I tried to connect the neg battery post it arced like an SOB and the started cranked. The key is off. I check and reworked the connections and when I try to connect the neg battery post it arcs. Does anyone have any ideas whats wrong or what I can check?

Willyc is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 Old 10-03-2016, 06:21 PM
WarEagle1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Dothan
Posts: 115
Garage
Could be a few things but I would check the ignition switch on the column first. Those things are very finicky
WarEagle1982 is offline  
post #3 of 17 Old 10-04-2016, 11:57 AM
Makanak
Registered User
1982 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: near Beantown
Posts: 459
  1. Remove the key from the ignition switch and drop it on the floor inside the vehicle on the driver's side under the steering column. Now you know it is out and where to find it when needed.
  2. If not already done disconnect the negative lead from the battery.
  3. Disconnect all wires from the new solenoid.
  4. Touch the leads of an ohmmeter across the two large terminals on the new solenoid. If you get anything but infinite resistance the new solenoid is defective - shorted.
  5. Touch the two Ommeter leads across the two small terminals of the new solenoid. Should be some reading slightly above zero but not infinite. This is the electromagnetic coil inside the solenoid that makes it work.
  6. Now touch one ohmmeter lead to the battery positive lead and the other ohmmeter lead to the wire from the ignition switch that would be connected to the solenoid. Should be infinite resistance because the switch is in the OFF position. Any reading less than infinite indicates a short in the start circuit.

If all the above tests pass you can go on and verify to where each wire that connects to the solenoid goes. If they are all correct you can reconnect the wires to the solenoid then reconnect the negative lead to the battery negative post. The rest of the day should be a pleasure.

Makanak

The more I try to pursue the easy way out the more difficult it is to reach my goal.

Last edited by Makanak; 10-04-2016 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Correction in step 6.
Makanak is offline  
 
post #4 of 17 Old 10-05-2016, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
Thanks Makanak I ran the tests just now. For the new Solenoid, On the large posts I get Zero (0) resistance. Sounds like its shorted. for the small posts i read 1, infinite resistance, also sounds defective. In both cases it goes straight to that reading. For the start circuit when i set the meter to low ohms <2000 it goes straight to infinite resistance (1). If I set the meter to 20,000 ohms it takes the meter about 15 seconds to go to infinite (1,2,3,... Infinite). Sounds like the start circuit is good. I tried the same tests on the original solenoid. Large posts went to infinite, small posts went to infinite. Is this one bad (because the circuit through the coil is bad)?
Willyc is offline  
post #5 of 17 Old 10-05-2016, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
I also went back and cleaned the mounting surface and applied a liberal amount of dielctric grease to ensure solenoid was properly grounded. Same readings.
Willyc is offline  
post #6 of 17 Old 10-05-2016, 02:02 PM
Makanak
Registered User
1982 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: near Beantown
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
Thanks Makanak I ran the tests just now. For the new Solenoid, On the large posts I get Zero (0) resistance. Sounds like its shorted. for the small posts i read 1, infinite resistance, also sounds defective. In both cases it goes straight to that reading. For the start circuit when i set the meter to low ohms <2000 it goes straight to infinite resistance (1). If I set the meter to 20,000 ohms it takes the meter about 15 seconds to go to infinite (1,2,3,... Infinite). Sounds like the start circuit is good. I tried the same tests on the original solenoid. Large posts went to infinite, small posts went to infinite. Is this one bad (because the circuit through the coil is bad)?
Per your tests the old solenoid coil is open making it non-functional. That's why the starter does not work when turning the key to start position.

Per your tests the new solenoid is shorted internally and causes the starter to engage as soon as the battery cables are connected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
I also went back and cleaned the mounting surface and applied a liberal amount of dielctric grease to ensure solenoid was properly grounded. Same readings.
Dielectric grease is actually a very good insulator. "Dielectric" means it does not conduct. The advantage of using it on electrical connections is to seal out moisture preventing corrosion. AND it is non-combustible; i.e. will not burn. Some other types of grease may actually be both conductive and combustible so can be a cause of shorts and fires. So we use dielectric grease on light bulb bases and plug-in connectors that are exposed to damp or wet environments to prevent corrosion.

When installing the solenoid just make sure the metal base of the solenoid is clean and mounted on a clean bare metal surface. You can coat that with dielectric grease to prevent corrosion, then use star washers on the fasteners to grip the metal parts through the grease assuring electrical connection to chassis ground. BTW: Not all solenoids require grounding at the bracket so this would be moot.

According to my TSM for 1982, and I suspect the '83 is the same:
On the 4-cyl engines the starter motor relay (external solenoid) has no internal electrical connection to the bracket. The grounding is done via wire to the backup lamp circuit (man trans) or neutral safety switch (auto trans).

On 6 and 8 cyl engines the external solenoid has an internal electrical connection to the bracket only for manual transmissions. If the Jeep has an automatic transmission it requires a solenoid that has no internal connection to the bracket and instead has a wire to the neutral safety switch for it's chassis ground.

In light of the above you need to be certain you get the correct solenoid for the vehicle and transmission. The wrong solenoid will either not function or could cause a disaster.

Bring your ohmmeter with you when you go back to the parts store and test the next solenoid before leaving the counter. Infinite resistance across the large terminals, low but slightly higher than zero resistance across the small terminals. Depending on the sensitivity of the meter this may read zero. The small terminals are on opposite ends of a coiled wire and the resistance will be very low.

Makanak

The more I try to pursue the easy way out the more difficult it is to reach my goal.
Makanak is offline  
post #7 of 17 Old 10-15-2016, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
I'm really stuck now. I bought a new solenoid. Tested it at the parts house. Infinite resistance between the +/- lugs, slight resistance 3.5 ohm between the starter post and ignition post My CJ is a 6 cyl manual so I ensured good ground. Tested resistance between the energy lugs and it now reads no resistance, open circuit. Ignition posts still read a couple of ohms. Open Circuit between positive lug and ignition post. 3.5 ohm between S post and grounding bracket. These readings are all consistent with guidance in figure 1f-13 in the TSM. When it touch the neg terminal to the batter post (just a tap) it arcs like hell and the starter turns. Could I have a short in the ignition or starter circuits? Could the ignition switch have failed? Is the starter bad. I cant perform any if the actions in the TSM service diagnosis chart because I can't connect the battery to the solenoid. What gives? looking for ideas before I start trying to pull the starter of get into the ignition switch
Willyc is offline  
post #8 of 17 Old 10-15-2016, 03:15 PM
Geek
Registered User
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Wenatchee
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
I'm really stuck now. I bought a new solenoid. Tested it at the parts house. Infinite resistance between the +/- lugs, slight resistance 3.5 ohm between the starter post and ignition post My CJ is a 6 cyl manual so I ensured good ground. Tested resistance between the energy lugs and it now reads no resistance, open circuit. Ignition posts still read a couple of ohms. Open Circuit between positive lug and ignition post. 3.5 ohm between S post and grounding bracket. These readings are all consistent with guidance in figure 1f-13 in the TSM. When it touch the neg terminal to the batter post (just a tap) it arcs like hell and the starter turns. Could I have a short in the ignition or starter circuits? Could the ignition switch have failed? Is the starter bad. I cant perform any if the actions in the TSM service diagnosis chart because I can't connect the battery to the solenoid. What gives? looking for ideas before I start trying to pull the starter of get into the ignition switch
It sounds like your solenoid is working. Measure the wire you connect to the S post (the blue one on my 85) and see if there is 12V on it. If the key is in the start position it should be there. In run and off it should not. Sounds like your ignition switch is shorted so that 12V is there full time.

G
Geek is offline  
post #9 of 17 Old 10-15-2016, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
That's what I'm beginning to think too. I tried disconnecting the light blue wire from the S post then touched the cable to the post. it should have arced/cranked and did. it sounds like the starter switch is not closing the circuit inside the solenoid.
Willyc is offline  
post #10 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 05:19 AM
ECJ-7
Registered User
1976 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Forestdale
Posts: 644
just an observation: if the parts store gave you a ford solinoid that looks identical to the jeep, it would be wired differently. A dead give-away would be the casting being marked on the 2 small terminals, "S" and "I". On the cheap solinoids instead of a seperate contact to power the "I" wire they just jump it to the large starter terminal. If that were the case as soon as you connected the 2 small wires it would want to crank.
ECJ-7 is offline  
post #11 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 10:38 AM
Geek
Registered User
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Wenatchee
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
That's what I'm beginning to think too. I tried disconnecting the light blue wire from the S post then touched the cable to the post. it should have arced/cranked and did. it sounds like the starter switch is not closing the circuit inside the solenoid.
So you disconnected the blue wire from the S post and then you touched the battery cable to the main post on the solenoid (not the S post) and it still cranked with the blue wire disconnected?
Geek is offline  
post #12 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
Yes, when I disconnected both wires from the S post. There is a blue wire as specified in the TSM but there is also a pink (or purple) wire labeled "start" on the wire. It was hooked up that way on the old solenoid and worked fine for the last six years since I bought the jeep. But, when I disconnect those wires and bump the neg cable it arcs and cranks. I'm beginning to think the starter switch is defective. One thing I thought of is that the metal rod that runs from the key mechanism to the switch might have slipped out. Ill get under the dash tomorrow and check that. Sounds too easy though. I cant power anything up yet because of the arcing. Its just like laying something metal across the battery terminals, so I cant run the 12V test you suggested yesterday. I'm probably going to have to track it all down using continuity tests. I hope to avoid replacing the starter switch until I'm certain that's it. The TSM says you have to pull the steering wheel and drop the steering shaft to replace the switch. I'm dreading that.
Willyc is offline  
post #13 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
Willyc
Registered User
1983 CJ7 
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Rockport
Posts: 151
Also, the new solenoid is marked S and I on the small posts. but the parts guys also say "its just a 12 volt solenoid" so it could be a ford solenoid. Ill go back and ask them to look it up for a jeep today.
Willyc is offline  
post #14 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 01:12 PM
WarEagle1982
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Dothan
Posts: 115
Garage
You don't have to drop the steering shaft or take the wheel off. The ignition switch is easy to replace. It's on the top of the column behind the dash and held on with two screws. A rod connects the switch to the key tumbler. I would give it a shot. I think it's the ignition switch
WarEagle1982 is offline  
post #15 of 17 Old 10-16-2016, 05:26 PM
Geek
Registered User
1985 CJ7 
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Wenatchee
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
Yes, when I disconnected both wires from the S post. There is a blue wire as specified in the TSM but there is also a pink (or purple) wire labeled "start" on the wire. It was hooked up that way on the old solenoid and worked fine for the last six years since I bought the jeep. But, when I disconnect those wires and bump the neg cable it arcs and cranks.
Just so I have this in my tiny brain - With both the S and I terminals disconnected so there are no wires on either of those, when you hook up the big ground cable to the battery it arcs and the starter cranks over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyc View Post
so I cant run the 12V test you suggested yesterday.
Well then we need to cheat. The battery hooks to one side of the solenoid and the big cable to the starter hooks on the other. Disconnect the big cable to the starter at the solenoid. Cover the big solenoid terminal that you just disconnected the starter cable from with something. Electrical tape or something cause the next thing we do is hook up the ground to the battery and that post sticking out there is begging to be shorted to something (it's a heck of an arc welder). When you hook the ground up it shouldn't arc big but might arc a little bit if the ignition switch is hot all the time cause it will be turning on other stuff but nowhere the current draw of that starter. Now you should be able to do the 12V test on that blue wire when it is disconnected from the solenoid and see if it's hot when the key is off or even in run - it shouldn't have any voltage on it.

A second check is to look at the pink wire. That wire goes to your coil and puts a full 12V there when you are starting the jeep to give it a bit more punch to get things going. When you let off the key from Start to Run, that voltage should drop so the coil gets around 9V from another circuit. With the key in Run (not start) I think you should see 9V or something along those lines. If it's there and you have been hooking it to the S terminal cause that's the way it was wired before, that 9V may be what is pulling in your solenoid. It's why there is an I terminal on the solenoid. S activates the solenoid with 12V from the switch and I is a feed that goes to the coil so there is 12V there when you start. Just for fun lets say the 9V is there.

With both the S and I terminals disconnected but the ground still hooked up so that there is a full 12V going in to the solenoid. Dig into the tape or whatever you used to cover the other side and see if there is 12V. No? Good cause the solenoid is working. Yes? Bad cause the solenoid is shorted out. If there isn't 12V there, hook up ONLY the blue wire to the S terminal (leave the pink wire off and hanging), hook your meter up to the starter cable terminal and make it so you can read it when you move the key to start. If there isn't any voltage on it, put the key all the way over to Start and see if it jumps up to 12 V. If it does, hook the meter up to the I terminal and do the same test - put the key over to Start and see if the I terminal goes to 12V. If it does, pull the ground off the battery, hook up the starter cable to the post where it was, hook the blue wire to the S terminal and hook the pink wire to the I (I know it was wired differently before but that solenoid may have been different internally so that 9V wouldn't pull it in.) Now hook the ground back up and see if it makes the big arc. Hopefully not.

G
Geek is offline  
Reply

Tags
ignition , solenoid , starter

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome