79 CJ7 258 engine swap to 1981 model 258 No start - Page 7 - JeepForum.com
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post #91 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 04:30 PM
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You said your wife 'pumped the accelerator - then cranked'? The fuel pump won't send fuel to the carb until the engine is cranking. If there is no fuel in the carb fuel bowl the accelerator pump doesn't have anything to pump. With my '78 CJ7 304 I have to crank the engine a little - THEN give the accelerator pedal 2 or 3 quick pumps to start the engine.

Two pennies worth here: First thing I'd check is to see that the fuel pump IS pumping fuel. Disconnect the fuel line to the carb, put the end in a glass jar and have the wife crank the engine. Gas should start pumping into the glass jar and you can see it. The second thing I'd check (after you re-connect the fuel line) is to make sure that the carb jet isn't fully closed. If it is you are not allowing fuel to pass thru the carb.

The intermittent flashing of the timing light could be one of a few things. Your connection for the light may be loose. The light itself might be bad - maybe. I'd double check the connections.

I'm still thinking that you are over-thinking the engine problem. If you are getting spark to the Number One cylinder spark plug as shown with the timing light flashes, you should be getting at least enough spark to get the engine to 'pop'. I wish we lived closer because I think that engine is just about ready to start.

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post #92 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHFarm View Post
I've been trying to find a Sharpie or something to paint the timing marks. Thanks for the tip.

I followed these installation instructions -
https://fordsix.com/archive/www.clas...UIinstall.html
and thus the relay.

I did bypass the relay and wired the distributor directly to the battery. I've momentarily lost my helper, so didn't try to start the Jeep, just cranked with a remote starter switch. No difference.

When I started this project months ago, I was breaking connectors when I tried to get them apart and since the "beauty" of HEI is the simple one wire, I ripped all the old wiring out. So really can't go back at this point...
Fair enough. Again, I'm not an HEI guy by any means, so I'm just grasping at straws on how that all comes together. I thought I'd seen your Duraspark box still on the firewall in an earlier pic, and was thinking that the coil wire shouldn't be hot unless it's going through the box (which stacking ignition systems would introduce a whole 'nother level of random to the mix). Sounds like you've gotten the HEI installed properly (especially, if John didn't see anything wrong with that).

At least with the remote starter switch, you can feather the throttle directly on the carb while cranking if she's had enough.

Good luck, Brother! It's getting closer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1978CJ7Jeep View Post
You said your wife 'pumped the accelerator - then cranked'? The fuel pump won't send fuel to the carb until the engine is cranking. If there is no fuel in the carb fuel bowl the accelerator pump doesn't have anything to pump. With my '78 CJ7 304 I have to crank the engine a little - THEN give the accelerator pedal 2 or 3 quick pumps to start the engine.

Two pennies worth here: First thing I'd check is to see that the fuel pump IS pumping fuel. Disconnect the fuel line to the carb, put the end in a glass jar and have the wife crank the engine. Gas should start pumping into the glass jar and you can see it. The second thing I'd check (after you re-connect the fuel line) is to make sure that the carb jet isn't fully closed. If it is you are not allowing fuel to pass thru the carb.

The intermittent flashing of the timing light could be one of a few things. Your connection for the light may be loose. The light itself might be bad - maybe. I'd double check the connections.

I'm still thinking that you are over-thinking the engine problem. If you are getting spark to the Number One cylinder spark plug as shown with the timing light flashes, you should be getting at least enough spark to get the engine to 'pop'. I wish we lived closer because I think that engine is just about ready to start.
He'd already checked and replaced the fuel pump earlier in the thread, as well as checked the new fuel pump to make sure it's good.

As much as he's had his wife crank it, the carb should be primed and processing fuel - which it is not. I still say that carb's got issues.
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post #93 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Taking a little break to clear my head and the air. My wife pointed out that I have been repeating the same steps and expecting different outcomes. The pure definition of stupidity. While I have made numerable changes, I don't think I'm making progress.

So I'd like to focus on one issue - the intermittent operation of the induction timing light. That symptom has been there all along. Since it was a new purchase, I started by assuming the gun was defective. When I tried it on my CJ3a (with a 12v system), it worked fine.

So, assuming the gun is functioning properly, what would cause it not to flash when cranking the engine?
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post #94 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHFarm View Post
Taking a little break to clear my head and the air. My wife pointed out that I have been repeating the same steps and expecting different outcomes. The pure definition of stupidity.
I think Einstein said that when working on his jeep...


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Quote:
While I have made numerable changes, I don't think I'm making progress.

So I'd like to focus on one issue - the intermittent operation of the induction timing light. That symptom has been there all along. Since it was a new purchase, I started by assuming the gun was defective. When I tried it on my CJ3a (with a 12v system), it worked fine.

So, assuming the gun is functioning properly, what would cause it not to flash when cranking the engine?
First thing that comes to mind is low voltage or bad ground.

You are running a relay, so you can almost eliminate low voltage as a problem. However you have to be sure it is remaining closed when cranking.

you can check it by putting a test light where you have it connected to the distributor power.
Watch it when cranking and make sure the light stays on all the time.
If you have a volt meter, try to measure the voltage at the module power terminal when cranking. It should stay in the 10's

Next is ground.
I assume it's just the base that is the ground connection.

Put a voltmeter between the (-) terminal of your battery and the base of the distributor. It should read 0 volts when cranking. Anything else is going to rob voltage from your HEI module.


Also check other wires going to the other spark plugs and see if it is acting up on all the other wires also.
I would sometimes put it on the feed from the coil to the distributor but you aint got one.

I assumed you already hooked the (+) wire for the distributor directly to the battery to try that test and bypass the relay end everything else.

There are things like carbon traces and blown distributor rotor that can cause intermittent firing but you have installed all new parts.

What is your spark plug gap? The spark does have to jump the gap and spark for the timing light to work.

I use one of these and I'm always amazed that a spark can jump that far.

sparktester.jpg

You can find them various places that sell small engine parts for your lawn mower

It's a quick way to eliminate one problem.


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post #95 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 10:42 AM
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It appears, in the video, the timing light flashes 2 or 3 times then stops. Try this, place the clamp of the timing light on each plug wire, one at a time and see how many flashes, if any, you get. The timing light should flash each time the rotor passes the terminal, regardless of the position of the distributor. Just to be sure your getting fire to every plug.

I would rather have a tool I don't need, than need a tool I don't have.
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post #96 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 11:43 AM
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Looking at you video I don't see a ground to the head - unless there is one obscured from view on the rear of the engine. Preferably your battery negative should connect to the bolt hole in picture below.
This will lead to the intermittent spark issue you may be seeing with the timing light.
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post #97 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 05:42 PM
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Wouldn't the head get its ground from the head bolts through the block (if you're thinking the head gasket would isolate the head from the block and require its own ground)? As long as the block is properly grounded, it should suffice (I know mine doesn't have a separate ground strap to the head).

I'm not discounting the idea at all, just trying to think it through.
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post #98 of 132 Old 05-18-2020, 10:12 PM
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I'm game for "Real Improvements" or user friendlier improvements on a Jeep.

Doing crap because the other feller did it to his does nothing for me or the Jeep for that matter.

If you are a typical Jeep person, you want it to run well on the road, even do fine in the mud (me many years back)

I've had 7 Jeeps since 1991---I am opinionated----- mostly through experience and have only had CJs as my daily driver since 1981 when I was allowed on the asphalt.

Some of the things stuck in my head:

1) Prestolite has many leave you stranded downfalls- I upgraded my '77 to Motorcraft

2) I like to keep things mostly as they started out

3) I think the 258 is the best suited engine for a '76-'86 CJ

4) I like to be able to talk and hear my radio in the Jeep

5) Changing to a non-OEM ignition system really does not benefit nothing at all. It makes things confusing, I have yet to see any of my Jeeps "cross fire" in the OEM distributor.

6) My OCD quest from the beginning? I'm into getting Great MPGs, I've tried 1 bbls YFs, 2 bbl BBDs, Weber...... Even the tornado, opposing magnets on the fuel line, on and on!.......My 4bbl Holley 390 and the Offenhauser intake broke me out of the "Ever once in a while 16 MPGs" to a pretty much steady 18 MPGs!....Power when you want it is there too!

7)I do like reasonably larger tires on someone else's rig, I just can't afford to run them on my daily drivers.
When I was in the Army Rangers in Savannah, G.A. '82-'87. The entire barrack's parking lot consisted of like 90% CJs, 5% Trucks, 5% various cars. It was like looking across Heaven! "BIG TIRES" back then were 235/75/R15s! Jeeps came from the dealer with go cart looking wheels (I believe, "type F", you really improved it with the 235s!)

8) If you just like to spend money, impress your buddies with hoax upgrading, or you do the Baja racing kinda thing.....Disregard my opinions!

I do have lots of "Fix" pics, If the other's don't mind, I will jump in and try to help out.

Just a review, it will never run if TDC is not correct!

Assuming the engine is built correctly.

Sometimes we get carried away/ or missing the moment using the starter we got carried away bumping the starter- this way may get things right the 1st time.

Let's do it to slow motion

Hide your keys/chock your wheels/ go to neutral

Remove #1 spark plug

Stick it back in , maybe 2 threads (instead of using your thumb in an empty hole!)

Rotate the engine with a wrench or ratchet (not the starter)

Clockwise as viewed from the grill

When you hear the "hiss" coming by #1 plug.....STOP! (a friend may be helpful to hear this at #1 (as the other cylinders hiss internally (usually fainter) when you rotate the engine manually

Now, we are on/ at the beginning the compression stroke on #1 cylinder (piston is still coming up- it just starting to compress)

We ain't up to the top yet!

Ever so slowly rotate the engine (cw) till your timing mark (line) lines up with zero!

STOP!

I have found that using the starter for the "bumpage" usually results in "overrunning" the marks, or compression kicks it back, etc. I prefer slow and a wrench!

Then you mistakenly rotate on around 180 degrees from where you should be (not sayin' bad things, but if you are new to this, it's a real EZ mistake!)

OK, back to our slow-motionage!

Now look at the rotor button
It should be pointing at the desired position you want it. Mainly where #1 wire will locate and room to move the 'stributor either was with room.

.......or which ever tower you chose to be #1 (textbook or not)

The engine/ cam/ crank don't care which one it is!

As long as you were at TDC, and you placed #1 spark plug wire on "that tower" (the one that rotor is pointing to)

And your 1-5-3-6-2-4 firing order starts there- and runs the sequence clockwise (looking down on the 'stributor cap)

If desired or need be, pick up the distributor and turn the button to the better desired position and reinstall it.

It may require using a long screwdriver to "tweak" the oil pump around so that the distributor will drop fully into place.

Installing it "textbook" cuts down on confusion later on, as you may have forgotten the "deal"- simply hooking it all up like it shows in the book will make it EZier in 8 months! (but you gotta install it textbook now!)

Do you have a plain Jane timing light, a Tach/ Dwell meter/ and/ or a vacuum gauge? Tuning by ear is not the way to go!

Lets hears some some good info or questions!

---JEEPFELLER
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post #99 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHFarm View Post
Taking a little break to clear my head and the air. My wife pointed out that I have been repeating the same steps and expecting different outcomes. The pure definition of stupidity. While I have made numerable changes, I don't think I'm making progress.

So I'd like to focus on one issue - the intermittent operation of the induction timing light. That symptom has been there all along. Since it was a new purchase, I started by assuming the gun was defective. When I tried it on my CJ3a (with a 12v system), it worked fine.

So, assuming the gun is functioning properly, what would cause it not to flash when cranking the engine?
Bad pickup, bad coil, bad ignition module. Maybe a bad wire. Check the wire's resistance, and the primary and secondary sides on the coil.

I'd pull the ignition module and have it tested at your friendly nearby auto parts shop.

Josh

ETA: Dumb question -- you've been keeping your battery charged, haven't you?
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post #100 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister4x4 View Post
Wouldn't the head get its ground from the head bolts through the block (if you're thinking the head gasket would isolate the head from the block and require its own ground)? As long as the block is properly grounded, it should suffice (I know mine doesn't have a separate ground strap to the head).

I'm not discounting the idea at all, just trying to think it through.
Relying on head bolts to achieve a good ground through how ever many other connection points there are to the engine ground is a recipe for for spark problems.
We don't know if the studs are covered in high resistance corrosion or RTV.
Its one of the first things I'd start to look at with what the OP is seeing - intermittent spark via the timing light.

You don't need a timing light to verify its is sparking just remove #1 or any other wire from plug and stick a screw driver in the boot, rest the screw driver near a good ground point away from the plug hole and crank.
Some of the other simple things would be to double check that the plug wires are making good positive contact inside the boots.
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post #101 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 09:00 AM
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I installed a HEI a couple years ago
The spade terminals in the HEI unit would push up into the cap when I connected the supplied flag terminals
The engine would run fine mostly but then develop an intermittent spark
I eventually removed the top of the HEI cap and held the terminals in place
While I made the connection
I’ve had solid performance ever since

1977 CJ5 is a CJ build ever really done?
2002 TJ gone
2005 TJ also gone
2005 LJ insurance wreck
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post #102 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basod View Post
Relying on head bolts to achieve a good ground through how ever many other connection points there are to the engine ground is a recipe for for spark problems.
We don't know if the studs are covered in high resistance corrosion or RTV.
Its one of the first things I'd start to look at with what the OP is seeing - intermittent spark via the timing light.
I get what you're saying, and don't disagree that it 'could' be part of the problem, but I've never seen any engines with separate head grounding straps, nor seen the head bolts blamed for ignition system grounding issues. Having said that, I'm not one to rule anything out - a grounding strap to the head seems like a simple and cheap insurance policy, all things considered.



Solid advice on finding TDC by the Armstrong method, but I'd wager that more than just a few folks haven't read the entire thread. TDC's been resolved, we're working on fuel delivery and possible intermittent spark issues. Not trying to start a pissin' match here, but rather save some tails being chased re-hashing things that have already been resolved.
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post #103 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 08:19 PM
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This seems to be getting more complicated than it should be.

With everything OEM and the rats not making nests out of the wiring so they might rig in some MP3 player device hooked to some high-speed router thingee,

You can generally diagnose might near anything and get going within an hour or two.

There's a whole bunch of jumping back and forth between fuel and ignition- You need do accurate tests and eliminate one or the other!

I'm not trying to be Mr. Crabtree in high school auto shop who thought you should be taken out back and flogged for not keeping up with the nuts and bolts out of the Chevette's valve cover.

But

What was the drawback of keeping the original distributor?

Why are relays needed on the ignition? I use them for KCs and so my train horn's automatic compressor won't operate unless the ignition switch is on.

I also see a fuel regulator probably installed incorrectly.

I'm lost on some of this over-upgrading! Adding a bunch of stuff that really might be useful if you were turning 10 grand on your tach. Much of this stuff makes it harder to replace oddball parts, your wiring gets all muffled up, now even harder to understand.

In my corner, a true upgrade can actually be seen/ touched/ actually shows a benefit that was not so good before. Not a ghost you have never seen or experienced that you pal says you have to perform an exorcist ritual to prevent it's possible actually showing up!

(Just who is this yammering fool?)

Are we using the proper coil--either for use with an external resistor or not?

Are we using "I" terminal of the solenoid which will boost the coil to full battery voltage when the Jeep is cranking?

I really want to assist/ not take over/ not looking for glory!

I spent a while making this fuel pressure pic.

I've also had this one on the ignition--Modified '79 diagram---This is the optimum set up to have, basically a "nutter" is making a latter year AMC mistake, back into a rock solid '79 Motorcraft system. I made this after a "real" upgrade from 1977 Prestolite to '79 type Motorcraft.

Presto had 3 major downfalls which I was so lucky to experience all of them several times!

I upgraded the whole works. Distributor + cap (reman), plug wires, plugs, ignition module, coil, I replaced the needed wires and connectors from Ford's in the salvage yard.

When I need any ignition parts, I SIMPLY TELL THEM IT'S FOR A '79 CJ-5 (not a '77)---the only "wild thing" tagging along is the "now needed" Ballast resistor. How could this be any EZer?

I've made/ colored lots of other diagrams---If I'm no help here, maybe somewhere else at another time!

----JEEPFELLER
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post #104 of 132 Old 05-19-2020, 08:46 PM
John Strenk
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He’s running a GM HEI distributor now.

He only needs one hot wire to run it but the relay is just to insure enough power. I ran mine for years without a relay Because it was easy to use the stock tach. But his choice to run relay so as long as it’s hooked up correctly it won’t be a problem
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post #105 of 132 Old 05-20-2020, 10:18 AM
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Bingo. It's a lot easier to focus on fixing what he has, than what someone thinks he should have.
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