79 CJ7 258 engine swap to 1981 model 258 No start - Page 6 - JeepForum.com
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post #76 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
LHFarm
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OK, sorry for being away so long, but this whole project has been FUBARed since day one. I finally received the D.U.I. unit and this one seems to work fine. I had ordered a waterproof relay to use to power it directly from the battery and that got lost, so had to re-order. Finally was able to wire everything up today and attempted to start. Excuse the video quality, but I wanted you to see/hear what I do. I'd ask you to notice a couple of things. First, there is no firing at all until I gave it a shot of ether. My wife did a single pump of the throttle and then cranked. At a couple of points, you can see the timing gun flashing on my shirt. So I'm more confident that this distributor is working correctly.


I am back to thinking that I'm not getting fuel from the carb to the cylinders. I did call Weber and the tech suggested that I might have a vacuum leak at the base, if I hadn't installed it correctly. I thought I was extremely careful. I even purchased a small torque wrench with inch/pounds to make sue the bolts were installed correctly and used grease on the gaskets. A visual inspection of the base plates looks good. Before I took it off and start over, would like to hear your thoughts on next steps.


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post #77 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 02:45 PM
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Timing is still not right. When you put in the new distributor, you put at #1 TDC compression stroke, crankshaft timing mark at 0 and rotor sitting on #1 terminal? Oh and I would suggest opening the throttle plates when you spray starting fluid into the carb. You want it down into the intake. If it happens to backfire through the carb, the way your doing it, you could get a big fireball.

I would rather have a tool I don't need, than need a tool I don't have.
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post #78 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 06:49 PM
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OK, so your fuel pump is pumping. Check.

Your distributor is... distributing [spark]. Check. (we saw the flash on your arm - I don't think it's 180-out, otherwise you'd hear a bunch of popping and whooshing while cranking)

You get no fire until after you've shot something flammable down the throat of the carb, then it tries with the little bit of whatever you shot down the throat but it's not enough to get it running and keep it running. Check.

I blame the carb itself - it's obviously not processing fuel. You mentioned that your wife gave the throttle a pump, but we saw no reaction as a result.

The only reason I can think of there not being fuel in the bowl (with everything working properly) is because the fuel has evaporated and/or made its way back to the tank while it's been sitting these past few weeks. After these old things sit for awhile, the fuel line needs to be re-primed, which happens while the engine is cranking while first attempting to start. Once the line, filter, and carb are primed, the fuel system should take over and run the engine.

We're not seeing any of this - the only time it fires is when you spray your starting fluid down the open throat. That's where the fuel is supposed to go when the carb is processing it correctly (its basically a controlled drip that gets atomized by the air rushing by on its way into the engine). I don't think you have a vacuum leak - I think your carb is basically blocked up. Either the jets or the needle valve supplying the bowl are blocked, and fuel's not making it into the intake manifold.

You mentioned using ether as 'starting fluid.' Have you tried using some actual 'starting fluid,' or even 'carb cleaner?' I ask because it's more of a fluid than a flammable gas. It's also what I use when I fire mine up from having sat so long, and basically run the engine on the starting fluid until the fuel line, filter, and carb fill up and the fuel delivery process takes over. I use the little stick/tube to shoot some starting fluid into the bowl vent to fill it up, then a healthy shot down the throat (the stick/tube also helps control exactly where it all goes, rather than just a cloud). I'll move around to crank the engine, and it'll fire and run... more or less... and almost die until I get back to the carb to shoot some more starting fluid down the throat in short bursts to keep it running until the fuel delivery is finally primed. After a minute or so of running, it'll settle back down to normal (unless it has bad valve seals like I have now, then it'll cough and puke as the plugs are fouling... but that's a different story).

I agree with Dngrs1 that your timing is still not right, but it's awfully hard to get it right (or even really close) without a running engine.

BTW - the engine is basically a big air pump when it's cranking, sucking in air, and is built to contain little explosions in order to make power. If you get a fuel blossom up out of the carb, have your wife keep cranking, because it'll suck it all back into the engine (where the fire is supposed to be happening in the first place).

I hope any of this helps. You are SO close... but I think that carb's the problem. Thanks for having us along for the ride. Hopefully, we'll get ya past this part sooner than later.
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post #79 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dngrs1 View Post
Timing is still not right. When you put in the new distributor, you put at #1 TDC compression stroke, crankshaft timing mark at 0 and rotor sitting on #1 terminal? Oh and I would suggest opening the throttle plates when you spray starting fluid into the carb. You want it down into the intake. If it happens to backfire through the carb, the way your doing it, you could get a big fireball.
I made this video last week to show how I was setting up the distributor

Thanks for the advice.
Barry

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post #80 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mister4x4 View Post
OK, so your fuel pump is pumping. Check.

Your distributor is... distributing [spark]. Check. (we saw the flash on your arm - I don't think it's 180-out, otherwise you'd hear a bunch of popping and whooshing while cranking)

You get no fire until after you've shot something flammable down the throat of the carb, then it tries with the little bit of whatever you shot down the throat but it's not enough to get it running and keep it running. Check.

I blame the carb itself - it's obviously not processing fuel. You mentioned that your wife gave the throttle a pump, but we saw no reaction as a result.

The only reason I can think of there not being fuel in the bowl (with everything working properly) is because the fuel has evaporated and/or made its way back to the tank while it's been sitting these past few weeks. After these old things sit for awhile, the fuel line needs to be re-primed, which happens while the engine is cranking while first attempting to start. Once the line, filter, and carb are primed, the fuel system should take over and run the engine.

We're not seeing any of this - the only time it fires is when you spray your starting fluid down the open throat. That's where the fuel is supposed to go when the carb is processing it correctly (its basically a controlled drip that gets atomized by the air rushing by on its way into the engine). I don't think you have a vacuum leak - I think your carb is basically blocked up. Either the jets or the needle valve supplying the bowl are blocked, and fuel's not making it into the intake manifold.

You mentioned using ether as 'starting fluid.' Have you tried using some actual 'starting fluid,' or even 'carb cleaner?' I ask because it's more of a fluid than a flammable gas. It's also what I use when I fire mine up from having sat so long, and basically run the engine on the starting fluid until the fuel line, filter, and carb fill up and the fuel delivery process takes over. I use the little stick/tube to shoot some starting fluid into the bowl vent to fill it up, then a healthy shot down the throat (the stick/tube also helps control exactly where it all goes, rather than just a cloud). I'll move around to crank the engine, and it'll fire and run... more or less... and almost die until I get back to the carb to shoot some more starting fluid down the throat in short bursts to keep it running until the fuel delivery is finally primed. After a minute or so of running, it'll settle back down to normal (unless it has bad valve seals like I have now, then it'll cough and puke as the plugs are fouling... but that's a different story).

I agree with Dngrs1 that your timing is still not right, but it's awfully hard to get it right (or even really close) without a running engine.

BTW - the engine is basically a big air pump when it's cranking, sucking in air, and is built to contain little explosions in order to make power. If you get a fuel blossom up out of the carb, have your wife keep cranking, because it'll suck it all back into the engine (where the fire is supposed to be happening in the first place).

I hope any of this helps. You are SO close... but I think that carb's the problem. Thanks for having us along for the ride. Hopefully, we'll get ya past this part sooner than later.
Thanks. I need the encouragement at this point. I'll get back in the saddle tomorrow.
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post #81 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 07:15 PM
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When I had a weak fuel pump that would not deliver the fuel fast enough to get it running, I would pour a spray can cap of gasoline down the carb. This allowed the engine to run for at least 4 or 5 seconds and fast enough to get the pump pumping.

And since there are two of you you should be able to see the timing marks on the harmonic balancer when cranking with the timing light. You could set it to around 8*

Even with a vacuum leak you you should be able to get it started and run it at high RPMs. Unless it's the size of a silver dollar. but even then...

One of the tricks on a Formula Vee was to space the carb off the intake with a couple of washers so more air can get in.
You just had to rejet it to compensate, Idled at 2000 RPM but most of the racing was at WOT anyway.


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post #82 of 132 Old 05-16-2020, 07:25 PM
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Your timing may be off some, but it should run....you're clearly not getting fuel. When you are adjusting the timing, try bigger changes, you'll know when you've gone too far.
Can you pour some GAS in the carb then crank it? For sure it will run.
I have a Weber 38 on my 258, and I had to work at getting it started again after sitting in the garage for 6 years. In my case, my float bowls were empty and all of my fuel lines were empty too. And my needle valve was stuck open, so when it did run, it puked gas out the overflow from the carb.

There's a reason for everything, and it can be frustrating to seek out the cause of your issues, but think how good it will feel when you do get it running properly!!

Oh, and those videos tell the story much better than a static photo and 500 words of description.

1977 CJ5 is a CJ build ever really done?
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post #83 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stripperguy View Post
Your timing may be off some, but it should run....you're clearly not getting fuel. When you are adjusting the timing, try bigger changes, you'll know when you've gone too far.
Can you pour some GAS in the carb then crank it? For sure it will run.
I have a Weber 38 on my 258, and I had to work at getting it started again after sitting in the garage for 6 years. In my case, my float bowls were empty and all of my fuel lines were empty too. And my needle valve was stuck open, so when it did run, it puked gas out the overflow from the carb.

There's a reason for everything, and it can be frustrating to seek out the cause of your issues, but think how good it will feel when you do get it running properly!!

Oh, and those videos tell the story much better than a static photo and 500 words of description.
I think "you;ll know when you have gone too far" is demonstrated in the following video. The exhaust pipe was bolted up, but not tight. I didn't include the minor fire or reaction of my spouse...

I made a BIG swing before the backfire and I'm assuming I should have done smaller steps. When I tried to see the timing marks, I never was able to see the mark on the pulley.

Why does the timing light only work part of the time? Is it the light or an electrical issue? It seems that when the engine is not trying to start, I don't get a flash.


Thanks for hanging in there with me... My helper is having doubts...

Barry
Lawson Hill Farm

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post #84 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 11:47 AM
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Those last couple of frames were impressive. young padawan.

backfire.jpg

It's odd the timing light is firing intermittently.
It's almost as if the distributor isn't getting enough voltage when cranking.


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post #85 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Those last couple of frames were impressive. young padawan.

Attachment 3909077

It's odd the timing light is firing intermittently.
It's almost as if the distributor isn't getting enough voltage when cranking.
Impressive isn't one of the words used by my wife. I think I may be bolting on the fenders and calling a roll-back very soon.

I wired the distributor with a relay so the voltage should be coming from the battery. A new battery by the way, I used the switched hot wire I had been using on the old distributor instead of the old coil wire as shown in the instructions. I will wire the distributor directly to the battery,

Maybe a large draw on the starter motor?? It is a new starter too..

I've got a remote starter switch, so maybe I won't need a helper for this test..
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post #86 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Just did a test wiring the distributor directly to the battery, with a volt ohm meter in line. Voltage read 12.8 or so. Cranked the engine and voltage dropped to 10.x. Light did not flash. I was not trying to start the engine (i.e. the ignition was off)

About the only thing I haven't changed is the starter solenoid. It looks to be original, but don't know if that could be an issue. Easy enough to get a replacement and eliminate something else.

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post #87 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 01:27 PM
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Impressive isn't one of the words used by my wife. I think I may be bolting on the fenders and calling a roll-back very soon.

I wired the distributor with a relay so the voltage should be coming from the battery. A new battery by the way, I used the switched hot wire I had been using on the old distributor instead of the old coil wire as shown in the instructions. I will wire the distributor directly to the battery,

Maybe a large draw on the starter motor?? It is a new starter too..

I've got a remote starter switch, so maybe I won't need a helper for this test..
Not all switched wires are hot when cranking. That is what is nice about using the old coil wire.

Easy enough to check thought.


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post #88 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 01:31 PM
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Just did a test wiring the distributor directly to the battery, with a volt ohm meter in line. Voltage read 12.8 or so. Cranked the engine and voltage dropped to 10.x. Light did not flash. I was not trying to start the engine (i.e. the ignition was off)

About the only thing I haven't changed is the starter solenoid. It looks to be original, but don't know if that could be an issue. Easy enough to get a replacement and eliminate something else.
10 volts is ok. 10.5 is normal.
Without the ignition on it may not flash.


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post #89 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 01:39 PM
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Wow! That'll certainly wake ya up!

Something I did to my Mustang when installing the new harmonic balancer was to highlight the timing marks with a laundry pen, silver sharpie, or something of the sort. Make sure everything's really clean and trace the marks with the pen, then quickly (but gently) wipe off the excess - there should be enough in the slots to show up nicely when the light hits it. Do the same on the numbers and the pointers on the engine as well.

I'm not at all smart with HEI, but unless the 'old coil hot wire' is a constant voltage (keyed power) wire, you might have just duplicated an old-school points system by using that relay in the mix. If you still have the Duraspark system hanging on the firewall and plugged in (I thought I saw it in one of the earlier pictures, on the driver side firewall down low), it might be sending pulsing signals to the 'old coil hot wire,' which could cause the relay to close/open/close/open... etc., in rapid succession - the timing of that happening, mixed with the timing of the distributor being off could mean you're chasing two timing issues. Again - I'm not an expert on HEI systems, but if it needs constant keyed power, then I'm not entirely sure the old coil power from the Duraspark system will provide it. Duraspark coil ground provides signal for the tachometer, which if it was constant would peg the tach, rather than measure how many times it fires to tell the tach where the needle should be to indicate rpms.

As you can see on the diagram, the Duraspark has 2 different paths to the hot coil 'BAT' power terminal. When it's starting, the starter solenoid should bypass the Duraspark coil wire signal, and when the engine is running, the starter solenoid drops the bypass signal and the coil takes signal from the Duraspark module. That could be why you're not seeing the timing light firing until the engine seems to be 'running' for a few seconds. If the Duraspark module senses the engine firing and trying to run, that old coil HOT wire would be closing the relay and providing battery power to the HEI coil (but then the gas runs out and it goes away again, back to starter bypass mode - but that usually happens when you let off the 'Start' mode of the ignition switch, and go back to the 'Run' mode).

Just a thought. Like John said, the HEI needs constant power to work properly. Taking that relay out of the mix would eliminate anything the Duraspark module might still be trying to do. I admit I'm a little leery about putting constant battery power to the HEI, just in case it wants to keep running after the key shuts everything else off. You'll want a keyed power source to energize the HEI system, IMHO.

Then you're back to why the carb isn't dumping any fuel into the intake.
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post #90 of 132 Old 05-17-2020, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Wow! That'll certainly wake ya up!

Something I did to my Mustang when installing the new harmonic balancer was to highlight the timing marks with a laundry pen, silver sharpie, or something of the sort. Make sure everything's really clean and trace the marks with the pen, then quickly (but gently) wipe off the excess - there should be enough in the slots to show up nicely when the light hits it. Do the same on the numbers and the pointers on the engine as well.

I'm not at all smart with HEI, but unless the 'old coil hot wire' is a constant voltage (keyed power) wire, you might have just duplicated an old-school points system by using that relay in the mix. If you still have the Duraspark system hanging on the firewall and plugged in (I thought I saw it in one of the earlier pictures, on the driver side firewall down low), it might be sending pulsing signals to the 'old coil hot wire,' which could cause the relay to close/open/close/open... etc., in rapid succession - the timing of that happening, mixed with the timing of the distributor being off could mean you're chasing two timing issues. Again - I'm not an expert on HEI systems, but if it needs constant keyed power, then I'm not entirely sure the old coil power from the Duraspark system will provide it. Duraspark coil ground provides signal for the tachometer, which if it was constant would peg the tach, rather than measure how many times it fires to tell the tach where the needle should be to indicate rpms.

As you can see on the diagram, the Duraspark has 2 different paths to the hot coil 'BAT' power terminal. When it's starting, the starter solenoid should bypass the Duraspark coil wire signal, and when the engine is running, the starter solenoid drops the bypass signal and the coil takes signal from the Duraspark module. That could be why you're not seeing the timing light firing until the engine seems to be 'running' for a few seconds. If the Duraspark module senses the engine firing and trying to run, that old coil HOT wire would be closing the relay and providing battery power to the HEI coil (but then the gas runs out and it goes away again, back to starter bypass mode - but that usually happens when you let off the 'Start' mode of the ignition switch, and go back to the 'Run' mode).

Just a thought. Like John said, the HEI needs constant power to work properly. Taking that relay out of the mix would eliminate anything the Duraspark module might still be trying to do. I admit I'm a little leery about putting constant battery power to the HEI, just in case it wants to keep running after the key shuts everything else off. You'll want a keyed power source to energize the HEI system, IMHO.

Then you're back to why the carb isn't dumping any fuel into the intake.
I've been trying to find a Sharpie or something to paint the timing marks. Thanks for the tip.

I followed these installation instructions -
https://fordsix.com/archive/www.clas...UIinstall.html
and thus the relay.

I did bypass the relay and wired the distributor directly to the battery. I've momentarily lost my helper, so didn't try to start the Jeep, just cranked with a remote starter switch. No difference.

When I started this project months ago, I was breaking connectors when I tried to get them apart and since the "beauty" of HEI is the simple one wire, I ripped all the old wiring out. So really can't go back at this point...

Barry
Lawson Hill Farm

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