79 CJ7 258 engine swap to 1981 model 258 No start - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 11:32 AM
Matt1981CJ7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Strenk View Post
Asking this in general to the guys out there, I never deliberately put a timing chain on wrong just to see what happens but what if some one did? What happens?
I think that would depend on how "wrong" the timing chain was installed. Cam timing is often advanced or retarded from the "zero" position to achieve certain performance gains at certain RPMs. But we're only talking like 4 degrees either way.

If the timing set was way off, there would be potential piston/valve conflicts that could be catastrophic. But then, I think you would know in a matter of a few cranks of the engine.

Matt



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post #17 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 12:08 PM
Mister4x4
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Where is your HEI 12V keyed power coming from?

I ain't gonna lie, I don't know a lot about HEI systems, in fact I tried fabricating a hybrid HEI system using an old Duraspark box, an HEI ignition module, and a wiring diagram from Jeeps Unlimited forums many years ago - no luck... I couldn't get it to work on my '80 CJ-7.

I do know that the Duraspark ignition in my '71 Mach 1 was finicky about which terminal on the starter solenoid it preferred. I'd replaced the factory points system with the Duraspark, since it worked so well in my Jeep and was a modern replacement for the points from Ford anyway - made sense to me. I decided to save myself a little hassle and bought a Duraspark ignition conversion harness from National Parts Depot and wired it up according to the instructions, with the key power running to the 'S' terminal on the starter solenoid. It would crank and crank and crank... nothing. Then I swapped the key power from the 'S' to the 'I' terminal on the starter solenoid, and it fired right up and ran great!

After reading some more about the Duraspark, I realized that the starting timing advance was not working because of the system not being wired properly, with the ignition advance wire completely unwired ('S' terminal), and the key power on the 'I' terminal. So, I traced out the harness, re-ran the wires to that configuration, and actually smoked the Duraspark box after the third or fourth start. Surely that was an anomaly... and I wholeheartedly believed that right up until I smoked the second Duraspark box. OK - I'm done with this. I got another Duraspark box and returned the wiring to the configuration that was running and haven't looked back since. The car fires right up and the vacuum takes care of any timing advancing needs while it's running just fine.


Another question I would ask (not having a Weber carb myself), why does it look like the accelerator pumps are missing on both yours (Barry) and the one Matt posted? I have an MC2100 - so I guess I'm just not familiar enough with the Webers.

So, check your keyed power - if it's on the 'S' terminal, try it on the 'I' terminal of your starter solenoid. If you weren't getting indication of spark, I also suggest trying a new ignition module (just to rule out having smoked something during the wiring swaptronics).

Good luck!
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post #18 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt1981CJ7 View Post
I think that would depend on how "wrong" the timing chain was installed. Cam timing is often advanced or retarded from the "zero" position to achieve certain performance gains at certain RPMs. But we're only talking like 4 degrees either way.

If the timing set was way off, there would be potential piston/valve conflicts that could be catastrophic. But then, I think you would know in a matter of a few cranks of the engine.

Matt
I'm pretty sure our AMC engines are 'non-interference' engines, and therefore immune to that issue. I could be wrong, though.
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post #19 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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There is not a steady gas stream while cranking the engine. More dribbles and spurts. That was with my wife counting to 12 while cranking. Should I just try a new pump at this point?

In the mean time, did the compression test. All cylinders between 160 and `65. Plugs gaped 034. Don't remember brand, but can check. Did the whistle test and still appears that the distributor is in the correct location. Attached is the top of the #1 cylinder I took with a little scope camera.
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post #20 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 03:04 PM
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There won't be a steady stream of gas at cranking rpm, you will get squirts of fuel. first off, what voltage do you get to the distributor when cranking? an hei should have 12V+ to it at all times. 2nd, is the timing order correct and are you following the correct rotation of the distributor? should be 1-5-3-6-2-4 in the clockwise rotation.

80 CJ-5, 74 CJ-6, 56 CJ-5
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post #21 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fourtrail View Post
There won't be a steady stream of gas at cranking rpm, you will get squirts of fuel. first off, what voltage do you get to the distributor when cranking? an hei should have 12V+ to it at all times. 2nd, is the timing order correct and are you following the correct rotation of the distributor? should be 1-5-3-6-2-4 in the clockwise rotation.
See note 14 on the wiring. Clockwise rotation.

I'm not smelling fuel on the plugs even after lots of cranking. I'm at the "just throw money at it" phase. A new fuel pump doesn't seem like a big expense.

Barry
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post #22 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 04:14 PM
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you should be able to fill the carb bowl through the vent. if it starts then, you can think about replacing the fuel pump.
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80 CJ-5, 74 CJ-6, 56 CJ-5
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post #23 of 132 Old 04-14-2020, 06:44 PM
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Have you shot any starter fluid straight down the throat before hitting the key? When I have to wake my Jeep up after sitting for so long, I usually stick the little tube on the can of starting fluid into the vent hole of the bowl and fill it up that way, then spray a shot down the throat and hit the key. If it tries to fire up but gives up after a few seconds, then the bowl is empty. If after a couple of times of cranking on starter fluid the gas still isn't there, then the fuel pump could be bad.

You mentioned that the fuel pressure gauge was showing pressure before you removed it from the system, though. What are the odds that the needle valve in the float system is stuck 'closed?' Or maybe the jets are gummed up 'closed?'

Just throwing ideas out there.
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post #24 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mister4x4 View Post
Have you shot any starter fluid straight down the throat before hitting the key? When I have to wake my Jeep up after sitting for so long, I usually stick the little tube on the can of starting fluid into the vent hole of the bowl and fill it up that way, then spray a shot down the throat and hit the key. If it tries to fire up but gives up after a few seconds, then the bowl is empty. If after a couple of times of cranking on starter fluid the gas still isn't there, then the fuel pump could be bad.

You mentioned that the fuel pressure gauge was showing pressure before you removed it from the system, though. What are the odds that the needle valve in the float system is stuck 'closed?' Or maybe the jets are gummed up 'closed?'

Just throwing ideas out there.
This is a new carburetor that I installed. So I don't know that it functions correctly. I've been reluctant to use starting fluid. Somewhere in the my past someone told me it was bad for engines. Or maybe that was just diesel engines. On a couple of occasions early on when I did do some short squirts of fluid, it did seem to want to fire. But only for a second or two.

I'll try your technique and report back.

Barry
Lawson Hill Farm

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post #25 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Well that was exciting - no that was scary. Sprayed liberal amounts of ether and had my wife crank. It really seemed like it wanted to start. So I loaded up on ether again and went around to slowly turn the distributor. As I kept turning while she was cranking, got a backfire through the carb and had a small ether fire underneath the Jeep. Easily put it out with a welding blanket I had ready. But don't want to repeat that.

I'm guessing that the backfire is an indication that I went too far, but it also means I was getting spark.

What do you all suggest I do next? Replace the fuel pump? If so, do you have a recommend brand or model?

Thanks again.

Barry
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post #26 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 11:09 AM
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Did you try what Matt suggested? To see if fuel pump is working?

“Your engine needs fuel, air, and spark to start. So, I'd disconnect the fuel line at the carb, and stick the end of the fuel line in a can or jar, then crank the engine. You should see a steady stream of fuel coming out of the fuel line. If so, your problem isn't fuel related, and we'll look at ignition next.

Matt”

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post #27 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 01:37 PM
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Sorry for all the drama - but at least you know the spark side of the house is active.

Sounds to me like your timing is nowhere close to where it needs to be, and there is something preventing the fuel from getting into your engine. Whether that 'something' is a bad fuel pump or a malfunctioning carburetor is the next thing to figure out. I agree that testing the fuel pump as Matt suggested is a quick way to rule it out. But I think it's not the fuel pump, based on some of your earlier comments. I would look hard at the carb float, needle valve, and jets being closed off (if you still have good fuel pressure from the pump thru the filter).

Having a fuel blossom like that indicates that the intake valve is open as the spark plug fires - that should not be happening as many times as you've reset everything back to TDC... that's why I say your timing is all wrong. Is there any possibility that this distributor does not go with this engine? If the tooth count on the distributor gear are not correct, you'll be chasing your timing issues forever, since you'll have a hard time figuring out when it's going to be in the same place twice (as opposed to the same place every time as it should be). Do you still have your old distributor and ignition system? If it was running when you pulled the engine, swapping that ignition system back in might be a course of action to rule out issues with the distributor/ignition system that came with the engine.
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post #28 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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I agree that the problem is with the fuel delivery. I can see the carb squirting gas when I pump the accelerator. The carb is new. That doesn't mean it couldn't be bad. Just saying. The HEI is the Summit model for this engine. Again, it could be bad. I actually replace the module at one point. I didn't get the fire ball until I had really twisted the distributor by a large number of degrees. But again, I've been completely wrong up to this point.

Since a fuel pump is only $40 or so, I'd like to try that. Does anyone have a recommendation of brand/model?

And thanks again for taking the time to help.
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post #29 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 06:50 PM
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Hey, you're absolutely welcome. Times like this, I wish I could be standing right there with ya scratchin' my head as well.

My buddy Jim (met him when he was a parts guy at NAPA) used to always say, "'New' doesn't mean 'Good,' it just means 'New.'"

When we were working on mine setting up the MC2100, the hard line fitting on the top of the original pump cracked when he was 'adjusting' it, so he grabbed a Precision OEM-style mechanical pump from O'Reilly Auto Parts - it's worked like a champ since 2002. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b...jeep/cj7?pos=3

Hope this helps.
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post #30 of 132 Old 04-15-2020, 08:15 PM
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Hello,

You're in Columbus, Indiana? When all this COVID-19 stuff is done, I might find time to make a drive south if you've not gotten it to start yet.

Regards,
Josh
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