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post #1 of 16 Old 04-26-2008, 11:23 PM Thread Starter
sefh
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304 with exhaust flames

I just put in another 304 in my CJ and now I have a problem. I replaced the distributor from one 304 to another. I had the crank at TBC and rotor was pointing by #1 cylinder. The cap has #1 on it so that is where I started. Could that be wrong and I'm off on the cap? The motor will run but I have flames out the exhaust. I took the distributor out and rotated it 360 degree and it won't start but when I put it back the motor will run but with flames. What would cause this?

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post #2 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 07:48 AM
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Did you double check the firing order?

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post #3 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 08:07 AM
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Wish I had flames coming out of my exhaust!!!
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post #4 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sefh View Post
I just put in another 304 in my CJ and now I have a problem. I replaced the distributor from one 304 to another. I had the crank at TBC...
What is 'TBC'?
Never heard of that before...

What I think you meant was 'BTDC' as in 'Before Top Dead Center', which would be wrong also...

You install a distributor AT TDC or Top Dead Center...
Leave the "Before" part until you have the thing correctly installed and running...
------------------------------------

You should have set the distributor at TDC of COMPRESSION stroke...
Since there is TWO TDC's in the normal cycle of an engine... It's pretty easy to get the top of EXHAUST, not compression...

BUT,

A V-8 engine won't run 180° out.
An I-6 engine will not only run 180° out, but will run fairly well!...

Quote:
and rotor was pointing by #1 cylinder. The cap has #1 on it so that is where I started. Could that be wrong and I'm off on the cap?
Absolutely...
What I think has happened is,
You didn't allow for the rotation of the shaft/rotor when the distributor drops into place on the cam shaft gear.

Since the gear is Spiral cut, as the gear engages, the shaft/rotor will turn 'Forward' or clockwise as the gears engage.

You need to start with the rotor nose about a full cap terminal space 'Backwards' or Counter-Clock-Wise before you start meshing the gears, and the rotor will wind up point at the #1 terminal when you are done installing the distributor and it's fully seated.

Quote:
The motor will run but I have flames out the exhaust. I took the distributor out and rotated it 360 degree...
I think you mean 180°...
360° would be turning it in a complete circle and putting it right back in, EXACTLY where it was to start with...

Quote:
...and it won't start but when I put it back the motor will run but with flames. What would cause this?
The thing that comes to mind right away is FIRING ORDER...
Check your plug wires for correct firing order!
Sounds like you have plug wires crossed up somewhere!



The only thing in the 'Timing' I can think of that will consistently throw 'Flames Out The Tail Pipe' is a crossed firing order...
---------------------------------------------

Since you seem confused about the distributor placement...

I'm not going to cover this a bunch of times, so here is a link,
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/dist01.html

So, lets start from scratch...

First of all, TURN THE ENGINE BY HAND, don't use the starter...

You want to find COMPRESSION STROKE!
Once you find compression stroke, you want to find the TOP of compression stroke.
SO,
Once you find compression starting, use a wooden dowel rod or chop stick in the spark plug hole, and feel for the top of the piston as you crank the engine over by hand...

You are looking for EXACTLY TOP DEAD CENTER of the piston run...

Once you have VERIFIED the piston at TDC by touch,
Then look at the balancer.
The timing mark on the balancer should be VERY close to the 0° (zero) mark on the timing cover.
AND,
Just because the mark lines up, doesn't mean you have TDC of Compression, since there is a TDC of Exhaust also!
SO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE COMPRESSION STARTING BEFORE YOU DETERMINE TDC OR YOU WILL BE 180° Out!

If the balancer mark doesn't line up with the 0° mark, you have the wrong or bad balancer, replace it.

If the balancer mark is at the 0° mark on the timing tab, you may continue...

Put the distributor cap on the distributor, and mark the housing under the #1 plug wire terminal.
That way you will have an accurate way to determine the location of #1 with the cap off.

Take the cap off, Put the rotor on the distirbutor.

Install the distributor in the hole, but don't let it engage the cam gear just yet...
You want the rotor to be about one plug terminal space 'backwards' in the rotation, or Counter Clock Wise if you prefer.
This will compensate for the shaft/rotor movement as the distributor gear engages the cam gear.

If you watch the rotor as the housing drops into the engine, you will see the rotor move clockwise in relationship with the housing...

Now, if the housing doesn't fully seat on the housing, and stays up about 1/2", that would be the oil pump drive shaft not lining up with it's slot...

Hold the distributor housing, and rotate the ENGINE TWO FULL TURNS...
DON'T STOP WHEN THE HOUSING DROPS! CONTINUE TWO FULL ENGINE REVOLUTIONS!

The rotor will move while you are turning the engine, and when the rotor comes back around to the #1 mark on the distributor housing you made, and the balancer mark lines up with the 0° mark on the timing cover, you are ready to SNUG the distributor clamp down...

DO NOT TIGHTEN THE CLAMP! You want to be able to move the distributor by hand at this point, but you don't want it moving on it's own... Just 'Snug'...

Hook up your timing light, and crank the engine, see if it starts...
If not, try moving the distributor a few degrees COUNTER CLOCK WISE and try the timing light again....

If you still get 'Popping' check your plug wires!

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post #5 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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OK to clear things up...I meant Top Dead Center. Yes it should have been 180 degrees instead of 360. Not sure what I was thinking must been from the frustration. JeepHammer ~ thank you so much for the information. I will start from scratch either later tonight or tomorrow with the information you provided for me.
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post #6 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Mike Romain
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I had flames coming out my exhaust once. I believe my float had stuck or frozen open. It was shooting flames a couple feet out. I would careful look down the carb when it is running to be sure it wasn't doing the same and pouring gas in.

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post #7 of 16 Old 04-27-2008, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavephish View Post
Wish I had flames coming out of my exhaust!!!
Yeah flames are bad a**

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post #8 of 16 Old 04-28-2008, 05:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Romain View Post
I had flames coming out my exhaust once. I believe my float had stuck or frozen open. It was shooting flames a couple feet out. I would careful look down the carb when it is running to be sure it wasn't doing the same and pouring gas in.
Well after getting this thing running yesterday I still have flames but there is no throttle response and it rev's really high. So I think now it's a carb issue instead of a timing issue. It is a Edelbrock 4 bbl. So I think I take it off and clean it and see if that helps.
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post #9 of 16 Old 04-28-2008, 01:48 PM
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Now that we know it's an Edelbrock 4 bbl. carb...
But we still don't know EXACTLY what you have done or checked...

Did you VERIFY TDC on the crank/piston?
Did you VERIFY the harmonic balancer?
Did you VERIFY the rotor nose position at #1 in the distributor?
Did you VERIFY there were no vacuum leaks?
Did you VERIFY the firing order?
Did you take the vacuum line off the distributor as see if that helped?

WHAT HAVE YOU ACTUALLY DONE AND WHAT CARB ARE YOU RUNNING!?

How about telling us WHICH Edelbrock 4 bbl. carb.?
Edelbrock cloned both the Carter AFB and the Rochester Quadra-Jet.
The most popular Edelbrock carb is the AFB copy, but there really isn't any way for us to tell which you have...

How about a picture...

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post #10 of 16 Old 05-02-2008, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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post #11 of 16 Old 05-02-2008, 09:12 PM
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Carter AFB clone. It's probably the most popular of the Edelbrock knock offs.

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post #12 of 16 Old 05-02-2008, 09:18 PM
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Come on hammer, better not be an Edelbrock hater......

If your Jeeps not leaking it's out of fluids.
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post #13 of 16 Old 05-03-2008, 01:43 AM
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JeepHammer called it. The only thing I know that will cause the problem you have described is timing.

Following JeepHammer's procedure should cure the problem.

Good Luck.......

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post #14 of 16 Old 05-03-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzirbel View Post
Come on hammer, better not be an Edelbrock hater......
Disqualifier! I'm busted!
To start with, I'm bias as all get out.
I'm Holley factory trained, and I worked for Holley on their race car/show car tune up trailer, and I've raced Holleys for over 30 years... So maybe I'm not the one to ask...
----------------

Having said that, I worked for a supercharger company, and I owned an engine machine shop for 20 years that mostly specialized in high performance engines...
So my back ground all leans to HiPo stuff, and not feeding the stock applications, which AFB is actually pretty good at.

It takes me about 30 hours to set up a pair of Holleys for supercharger use, and about half that for the AFB's.
The Holleys will control the fuel better in a HIGH boost application, but AFB's are perfectly acceptable for street supercharger applications up to about 14 psig.
You can make Holleys do their thing up to about 28 psig (if you can build enough engine to take those pressures!).

You simply can't make a Rochester QuadraJet deliver enough fuel fast enough to use it in a supercharger application over about 10 psig...
----------------------

I think Vic Edelbrock and team did some good things with that old Carter AFB design...
Clean up a lot of leaks you simply couldn't get rid of in the original AFB design, and redesigned some of the more 'Problem' things on the AFB, so they really did some small changes that make BIG improvements over what I had to work with!

If you are mostly stock, and don't need big adjustments for everything, the AFB is an acceptable choice, and the Edelbrock is the most 'User Friendly' Version of the AFB out there that I know of...

To me, the AFB has some basic design flaws that just can't be overcome for real tuneability and high performance work, but if you have an application (like Supercharging) where you need to supply a lot of fuel in a hurry, the AFB will do it!

If you can find an application they work well on, then they are a good choice, but they just aren't adjustable enough for me...
And I've been working on AFB's for guys in Chrysler class racing for nearly 30 years...
They are as good as any QuardaJet, but lack the adjustability of a Holley.

AND,
People buy carbs that are WAY too big and can't figure out why they don't have good throttle response...

To be honest, the biggest things I saw wrong were WAY too LARGE of carbs, and vacuum leaks.
The base plate flange on the AFB is VERY susceptible to warping if you don't evenly tighten the mounting bolts,
and they leak like crazy after that!

To be fair, it's pretty easy to warp a Holley base plate too, but you can pull most of the warp out if you don't crack the baseplate first!
-------------------------------

I just wish this guy would post up what he has, and hasn't done or verified so we can chase the problem down and kill it!

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post #15 of 16 Old 05-03-2008, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry to keep everyone waiting. I have been busy with kid's activities and the Jeep sits. I plan on working on it soon and when I do I will keep everyone posted. Just not enough time in the day..

I have verified to make sure I was at TDC. The rotor was pointed to the #1 on dist. cap and timing mark was right on the money. I started it again and the same thing, so I'm leaning towards a vaccum leak or fuel issue instead of a timing issue.
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