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mudsomemore74 09-20-2015 07:34 PM

1974 CJ5 Which Internal Regulated Alternator to upgrade to and how
 
Ok, my 74 Jeep rebuild is almost inspection ready but I have a couple of hurdles yet to conquer. I have completely rewired the Jeep already and most everything is working. One thing that is not, at least I suspect it is not is my "original when I got it alternator" which has an external regulator on it. This thing looks like a total piece of garbage and I suspect it is bad and even if it isn't I probably want to just buy a new alternator anyway to get rid of the external voltage regulator. I will try to post some pics tomorrow and possibly even pull the rusted dirty ugly thing and try to figure out what it even is. It looks like it has two condensers on the back of it??? When I got it it had a red wire going to nothing just hanging off the right hand side terminal. I wired the voltage regulator up the way it was originally when I put on my "Speedway 20 circuit wiring harness". Right now I have one of the fusible links going to the same side of the relay as the battery and other fusible link that goes to the main power on the Speedway fuse panel. The only other wire (except for the external voltage regulator wires) is going to that same terminal as the fusible link that goes to the relay, the terminal closest to the driver side fenderwell, and that is the alternator wire going to my ampmeter (which is not working at all). The other side of my ampmeter goes to the same relay post as the alternator and battery positive. The vehicle cranks and runs fine, lights work, new radio, all electrical works except I don't think the alternator or ampmeter is working. I have seen a ton of posts here and elsewhere about what alternator to get. I keep seeing the CS-130 mentioned. Is this the one I should go with and is it internally regulated. Also my ampmeter is 60amp so would that still work with this alternator? Side note, I have a couple of other old car projects and was wondering if I might just grab the alternator off of one of those. One is a 1988 Chevy 1500 pickup with a 350 engine and manual 5 speed, I had bought a brand new alternator for it about 5 years ago and never have finished that project so other than being weathered that alternator has just been sitting under that hood for awhile. Not sure what it is (been too long ago), and the other alternator donator would be from a 1998 Dodge full sized van with a small v8, 318 (engine blown), and auto transmission. Like I said I can post pics but if the general consensus is to just buy a new alternator then will probably just do that. Also, if it matters at all this is a 74 CJ5 with a 232 (3.8 litre) inline 6 with the t-14A transmission and dana 20 transfer case. I have rebuilt both the transmission and transfer case already so not looking to swap those out anytime soon. I also have a weird issue with the new front led turn signals only working when I don't have the headlights on but that is a problem for another day. I have tried inline resistors as well as different flasher relays to no avail and my rear lights are traditional (not led). Anyway back to the alternator issue for now. Thoughts, suggestions???

Erik719 09-21-2015 05:53 AM

I just put a 90amp 12si in mine.

bob4703 09-21-2015 06:56 AM

My 74 origially had a 232, and a PO had already done the 3 wire alternator swap. The voltage regulator went bad and upon removal I discovered that the alternator case was cracked so I neeeded a replacement. The best match was for a 77 CJ. Bought the O'Reilly's rebuilt, but it overcharged at speed. Exchanged it for a second which undercharged at idle. Exchanged that one for a Wilson reman which was slightly more expensive and had to be ordered. Got it the next day and O'Reilly waived the extra cost. Works as expected and has a lifetime warrantee. Reman alternators are rebuilt for many applications. Vehicles with a lot of power drain don't require as precise an alternator as one like a CJ which uses very little juice past starting. I also recommend a voltmeter to have a true indication of your battery's charge.

Word of caution--make sure you have a tight connection with the two wire connector or the regulator will drain the battery. Vibration can make it come loose.

I am curious about your rewiring effort. What did you use? I am about to rewire mine and use a fuse box which as you found out ther 74 didn't have. Can you post pictures?

mudsomemore74 09-21-2015 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob4703 (Post 31992234)
My 74 origially had a 232, and a PO had already done the 3 wire alternator swap. The voltage regulator went bad and upon removal I discovered that the alternator case was cracked so I neeeded a replacement. The best match was for a 77 CJ. Bought the O'Reilly's rebuilt, but it overcharged at speed. Exchanged it for a second which undercharged at idle. Exchanged that one for a Wilson reman which was slightly more expensive and had to be ordered. Got it the next day and O'Reilly waived the extra cost. Works as expected and has a lifetime warrantee. Reman alternators are rebuilt for many applications. Vehicles with a lot of power drain don't require as precise an alternator as one like a CJ which uses very little juice past starting. I also recommend a voltmeter to have a true indication of your battery's charge.

Word of caution--make sure you have a tight connection with the two wire connector or the regulator will drain the battery. Vibration can make it come loose.

I am curious about your rewiring effort. What did you use? I am about to rewire mine and use a fuse box which as you found out ther 74 didn't have. Can you post pictures?


Bob,

So does your new alternator have an internal or external voltage regulator? Is there a particular model of the Wilson Reman that you have? I was looking to keep the cost of the alternator under $200 if possible. I would like to get rid of the external regulator. Could you post pics of how yours is wired and give a rundown of it? Great tip on the connections and the voltage regulator draining the battery. Thanks.

I thought about the voltmeter, and thanks for recommending it, and really the only reason I have not added one yet is that I would have to cut or widen an existing hole in my dash. Not that big a deal, I have hole saws, die grinders, cutting torch, welders, etc., but I just put the dash back in. I may still try it though at some point. Right now the alternator is not working at all though according to my ampmeter.

I will try to take some pics this evening after I get off work of my wiring, I used a Speedway 20 circuit harness from Speedway.com. With this harness there is no need to buy any other additional harnesses. If I had it to do over I probably would have listened to the guy at Speedway though that told me I only needed the 12 circuit. However, being a more bang for the buck kind of person, and with the 20 circuit only being about 20 bucks more I went for it in case I ever needed the extra circuits. The only issue with that is that you end up with a lot of extra wire clutter that you have to deal with and the extra confusion it adds. Not really that bad and I do have the extra circuits if I need them but if you strictly want to keep it simple go with the 12 circuit. If like myself you don't have the electric doors and windows (I don't have doors at all) and no roof so no curtesy lights you really only need about 8 circuits or so.

It's really funny the paint job(s) this thing has had in its past lives. When I have done some of the welding and bondo work on some of the body I have seen layers of green, red, blue, and its present color black. It really needs a paint job, but what it needs worse is another layer of mud on it so I need to hurry up and finish and go do that mud thing :)

mudsomemore74 09-21-2015 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik719 (Post 31991658)
I just put a 90amp 12si in mine.

Thanks for the post Erik. Does that have an internal or external voltage regulator? Who makes that one and what is the model? Could you post some pics of it and the wiring please?

bob4703 09-21-2015 11:03 AM

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1468&ppt=C0330

Above is link to O'Reilly's on the alternator. It has the internal regulator--GM type. I spected it for a 77CJ5 with a 258. The pully was more substantial than the other alternator too.

I've hung my voltmeter and temp guage under the dash until I rewire. You could always replace the amp guage with the voltmeter which is what I may do. The amp guage is pretty much useless!

Will check out the Speedway kit. Thanks!

mudsomemore74 09-21-2015 05:59 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob4703 (Post 31995882)
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...1468&ppt=C0330

Above is link to O'Reilly's on the alternator. It has the internal regulator--GM type. I spected it for a 77CJ5 with a 258. The pully was more substantial than the other alternator too.

I've hung my voltmeter and temp guage under the dash until I rewire. You could always replace the amp guage with the voltmeter which is what I may do. The amp guage is pretty much useless!

Will check out the Speedway kit. Thanks!

I just saw your post just now, and on my way home from work just stopped by Oreilly's (incidentally they are my favorite parts store) and picked up a 63amp one for a 78 CJ5 the guy said. It is a "2 wire", has a battery post, a ground post, and a 2 wire connector, pin 1 goes to idiot light or gauge (in my case ampmeter I guess) and pin 2 goes to battery (that is weird since it has a battery post already). The ampmeter I have is an autometer brand and since it is brand new and cost me like $60 I am probably going to at least give it a try.

I am including pics of the old alternator as well as the new one I just purchased.

I will post another pic of my wiring from my Speedway kit although I have cleaned up most of the wires into wiring jackets, not all of it, so I hope you can tell anything by the pics.

Thanks

mudsomemore74 09-21-2015 06:18 PM

10 Attachment(s)
Bob,

Here are the some pics from my rewire with my Speedway Wiring Harness. Sorry I have cleaned up some of the wires so you can't see all of the colors of the wires but hope it helps you some.

Here they are:

Thanks

mudsomemore74 09-21-2015 09:09 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I think the alternator that Oreilly's sold me that they said they cross referenced for a 78 CJ5 is not going to mount correctly unless I modify the bottom mounting bracket. It's a shame as this alternator was only $70 including tax and the core charge. Bob I think the link you shared with me may also be to thick on the bottom mount as well. See my comparison pics below.

I guess I could remove the old bracket and use it as a guide to fabricate a new bracket, basically I would need the old one to see where to make the mounting holes to go to the engine block. I think before I go through that hassle of doing that I may take this one I got from Oreilly's along with my old one and see if they can match something up.

Bob, just curious did you fab a new bracket for yours or did it bolt right up, you did say it was a 232 as well correct?

Thanks

Blake_S 09-21-2015 10:47 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I put one of these "single wire" units on my 74 CJ years ago. Very easy and very reliable. I also have one of these units on my antique AC tractor today. The one wire units work great replacing generator setups. The alternator pictured in Mudsome's post might need some voltage on the leads to energize the field coil in the alternator (the two spade lugs on top were designed to accept a field coil energizing circuit. Back in the 80's I did have one of those "single wire" alternators that had those leads included. Seems the rebuild company didn't care what case they put their guts into, but that was the cheesy a$$ 80s for you. When I checked these "extra" leads with a meter, they were indeed dead.

BagusJeep 09-21-2015 11:26 PM

You have purchased one of the most popular alternators on the US market, the Delco Remy. Lots of forum members have them (Delco units were fitted to CJs) and there are write ups on fitting the various versions to the CJ.

The unit looks the right size, you are unlikely to ever see more than 30 -35 Amps in a CJ, the fusible links would blow if you got full output!!! Larger units will give more juice low down but unless you are crawling make little sense.

The connections are the right ones to have, a single wire is OK for a generator but will not deliver the juice in a CJ at all operating speeds. Some owners get away with it.

The I wire (or 1 as it is actually marked) goes to the ignition or the idiot light. It turns on the alternator so needs juice in Run. Without the Idiot light a 10 Ohm resistor is usually put in the line.

The 2 wire is a sensing wire. Basically it will keep voltage at the alternator around 1.5-2V higher than where it is sensing. If you imagine under load you could get a voltage drop down the BAT cable you can see why you would want to sense seperately, it will get the alternator to put out more current when under load rather than letting it drop a bit. The point you sense at could be the battery, it could be the fuse box but on a CJ I would put it on the solenoid as this is where the power branches off aroun dteh vehicle.

Lastly your alternator case needs to be properly grounded.

bob4703 09-22-2015 06:20 AM

Mine came with the delco alternator so brackets were already removed. I don't know if engine was original 232 or a transplanted 258. I replaced it with a reman crate 258. Was much cheaper than rebuilding. Looks like you need a third bracket. Check the threads on alternator upgrades. They'll answer your questions. After you get it working check the voltage output at idle and at speed. O'Reilly's can or you can do it with a meter with help. Thanks for the pictures.

mudsomemore74 09-22-2015 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BagusJeep (Post 32006154)
You have purchased one of the most popular alternators on the US market, the Delco Remy. Lots of forum members have them (Delco units were fitted to CJs) and there are write ups on fitting the various versions to the CJ.

The unit looks the right size, you are unlikely to ever see more than 30 -35 Amps in a CJ, the fusible links would blow if you got full output!!! Larger units will give more juice low down but unless you are crawling make little sense.

The connections are the right ones to have, a single wire is OK for a generator but will not deliver the juice in a CJ at all operating speeds. Some owners get away with it.

The I wire (or 1 as it is actually marked) goes to the ignition or the idiot light. It turns on the alternator so needs juice in Run. Without the Idiot light a 10 Ohm resistor is usually put in the line.

The 2 wire is a sensing wire. Basically it will keep voltage at the alternator around 1.5-2V higher than where it is sensing. If you imagine under load you could get a voltage drop down the BAT cable you can see why you would want to sense seperately, it will get the alternator to put out more current when under load rather than letting it drop a bit. The point you sense at could be the battery, it could be the fuse box but on a CJ I would put it on the solenoid as this is where the power branches off aroun dteh vehicle.

Lastly your alternator case needs to be properly grounded.

Thanks for the reply Bagusjeep. I may check and see if Oreilly's has an alternative that would bolt up to the existing bracket but if not I may just fabricate a bracket and make this one work. The fusible links I have came with a Speedway kit so they are not the originals, so are you saying that I need to do something differently here so that I don't blow the fusible links?

I assume I can use an ammeter in lieu of the idiot light/amp light for pin 1 instead of putting in a resistor as I would think it would server the same purpose?

So I should be able to run the pin 2 as well as the main power (with the fusible link) for the alternator from the solenoid then correct?

Thanks

mudsomemore74 09-22-2015 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blake_S (Post 32005962)
I put one of these "single wire" units on my 74 CJ years ago. Very easy and very reliable. I also have one of these units on my antique AC tractor today. The one wire units work great replacing generator setups. The alternator pictured in Mudsome's post might need some voltage on the leads to energize the field coil in the alternator (the two spade lugs on top were designed to accept a field coil energizing circuit. Back in the 80's I did have one of those "single wire" alternators that had those leads included. Seems the rebuild company didn't care what case they put their guts into, but that was the cheesy a$$ 80s for you. When I checked these "extra" leads with a meter, they were indeed dead.

Thanks for the response Blake. Ahhh, a tractor man, I have one of those as well.

mudsomemore74 09-22-2015 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob4703 (Post 32007586)
Mine came with the delco alternator so brackets were already removed. I don't know if engine was original 232 or a transplanted 258. I replaced it with a reman crate 258. Was much cheaper than rebuilding. Looks like you need a third bracket. Check the threads on alternator upgrades. They'll answer your questions. After you get it working check the voltage output at idle and at speed. O'Reilly's can or you can do it with a meter with help. Thanks for the pictures.

I will keep that in mind if I ever need to get another motor, the Reman Crate 258 I mean. I would think that my t14a tranny and my dana 20 would just bolt up to that with no changes since I already but the work into rebuilding both. I guess I better stay on topic though :)

Sounds like I may be fabricating that bracket.

Thanks


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