1964 CJ5 brakes help!!!! - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
Collin1964CJ5
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1964 CJ5 brakes help!!!!

Hi guys! I have spent a few weeks looking through the internet for help on this so please forgive me if it has been posted somewhere but I feel my situation is different than any others I ran across.

I got a 64 CJ5 from a guy down the road from me. It had brakes until a few days before I bought it and then it blew both the front hoses. I have since replaced the hoses, the steel line to go to the front passenger side, and have taken out and bench bled the original master cylinder. I am at a loss at this point. I don’t see any air in the lines when bleeding (two person pump, break open, close, release method).

When my helper (wife haha) pumps up the brakes, it ends up getting really strong so I know it’s making pressure. It’s just that when everything seems bled properly, and buttoned back up, I still don’t have brakes. They can still pump up to pressure like during the bleeding process but as soon as I let off after pumping for a few seconds, I have to pump again (I’m talking like 5 times minimum) obviously this isn’t fixed yet but I feel like I’m getting closer. This new-to-me CJ hasn’t had brakes since I’ve gotten it so I’m getting really frustrated. I just wanna enjoy this beaut.

Some things to note:
Master cylinder is frame mounted, single stage and not powered or boosted whatsoever.
The two brake hoses I got were omix ada and were very tight when threading into my original hardware (might still not have a good seat but doesn’t seem to suck air in and definitely doesn’t leak)
I have no leaks anywhere visible but everything is original (to my knowledge) other than the parts listed.

Thanks for any insight you guys have!


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post #2 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 06:36 PM
jeepdaddy2000
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Start by adjusting all the shoes. Poorly adjusted shoes can require a couple of pumps to get the shoes in contact with the drums.


If you can't get the brake pedal up after that, you can try to isolate the systems by pinching off the rear brakes at the soft line with a set of vise grips. Try the pedal again. If it comes up, then your issue is in the rear brakes.


If there is no change, then do the same thing to the front soft lines. If the pedal comes up, then you can isolate the offending brake by dropping one then the other vise grip.




If you are still having issues, then you will have to look at the MC.



On a side note, if the MC is bad, it might be a good time to upgrade to a dual MC. hermtheoverdriveguy.com has the brackets and info.

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post #3 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 06:46 PM
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My first thought was same as jeepdaddy - brake shoes need adjusting. This would not usually be the first thing to think of when replacing a hose but as you have never seen the brakes work........

The brakes in 1964 were very similair to the 1940s Willys jeeps, adequate for then but by modern standards not the best. You can spend a lot of money with the specialists upgrading it all but with some research you will find parts that fit and allow for disc brakes, (not essential) dual masters and proportioning valves at a low cost.

Also look at residual pressure valves, they are usually fitted at the master cylinder outlet port that feeds drum brakes to keep a few pounds of pressure in the line, keeping the shoes near the drum so the second time you press the pedal it is immediate (only a few bucks, you could add them to your existing setup)


Pre formed brake tubing is fine, but if you get into redoing the brakes completely you will find 3/16" cupronickel tube and a bag of fittings enough for the entire Jeep is only $20 -$25 and a flaring tool ranges from $10 for a crap one to $30 for a really nice die setup. Lines are easy to make and run and will keep you and your family safe for many years.

And if two front hoses have burst (never seen that before - both at the same time) you should check the less visible rear hose.

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post #4 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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You guys are awesome. I’ll look at the shoes tomorrow. I looked for a rear shoe adjuster the other day but I didn’t see one where I had one on my 76 (bottom, between the shoes) I see what looks like a spring.

Also I don’t see soft lines in the rear. Steel line splits at a T right above the rear pumpkin and continues as steel lines into the rear drums. I haven’t looked to see what’s going on in the front when it comes to adjusting yet but I will check tomorrow too.

Let me clarify the hoses bursting haha!
I was trying to cheap out and only buy one hose in the front and during my first attempt at bleeding, I blew then second one haha. Both are now new.

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post #5 of 15 Old 01-14-2020, 09:12 PM
letitloose06
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If your brakes are the original style, they are not self adjusting. So being out of adjustment will cause a lot of pedal travel. Some info on adjusting the 9" Willys brakes can be found here.
https://www.cj3b.info/Tech/BrakeAdjust.html

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post #6 of 15 Old 01-15-2020, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Also I don’t see soft lines in the rear. Steel line splits at a T right above the rear pumpkin and continues as steel lines into the rear drums. I haven’t looked to see what’s going on in the front when it comes to adjusting yet but I will check tomorrow too.
Be sure to adjust the rears as well.

The soft line in the rear goes between the chassis and the axle.

Might think about replacing this one too.........

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post #7 of 15 Old 01-15-2020, 08:09 PM
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If it is steel line all the way to the rear brakes it is doomed. Fatigue will snap the lines quite quickly with the axle going up and down. Look harder (usually where the rear line approaches the tee, one end fastened to the crossmember of the chassis) or order up the hose and fittings and put one in.

A hose has an outer rubber sheath and an internal flexible plastic pipe/tube that is constrained by the sheath. If the outer rubber hardens and perishes, it starts to crack. Perished rubber will not keep that pipe from expanding, it will start to bulge and the brake effort will be effected and then when it fatigues it will burst. Replace them at the first sign of cracking, usually on a bend in the hose. They are very cheap and if ends are not rusted, quite easy to change out.

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post #8 of 15 Old 01-16-2020, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Ok so I adjusted the shoes per your suggestions and did find the rubber line just where you said! Now it only takes 1-2 pumps to have brakes. At this point should I give it another solid bleed and hope I gain better pressure in the first pump? You guys are saving me butt here! Haha

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post #9 of 15 Old 01-16-2020, 12:36 PM
John Strenk
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I'd still replace all 3 rubber brake lines.

You don't have a split system so if one line fails, all brakes fail.
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post #10 of 15 Old 01-16-2020, 10:47 PM
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one to two pumps is too much, mine are bang on first time.

Sounds like they are not tight enough yet, make sure all 4 are done up and then bleed again. However pumping is a sign that the drum shoes are not close enough to the drum. If you need to pump you may find that one set of shoes is further away than others and the brakes will grab unevenly and you will swerve.

I suggest you get a residual pressure valve fitted if you do not have one in the port of your master cylinder, they will save your arse later and are only $15 for a screw in (red, 10 psi) part that sits in the port and you screw your hard line on to the end of it. Not just because of pumping (hopefully you can cure that) but because you will get more even application of the brakes when they are running properly.

Rarely have I seen one fitted for disc brakes but there is also a 2lb blue version, you do not want this in your drum brake circuit.

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1981 CJ7 258ci - Bagusjeep
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1981 J20 258ci - Gladys
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post #11 of 15 Old 01-17-2020, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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Could it be I need new shoes too? Maybe that is factoring into the excess travel/pumping? The rears are virtually gone (one of them might be completely) but the fronts seem like they might still have some life in them still.

Update: I noticed that on both front wheel cylinders, only one side pushes out on the first pump, then on the second pump, the other side pushes out, of that makes sense. Sign of needing to be replaced?
I need to tell myself some times that I love my money pit :,) I mean, my Jeep.

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post #12 of 15 Old 01-18-2020, 09:05 AM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collin1964CJ5 View Post
Could it be I need new shoes too? Maybe that is factoring into the excess travel/pumping? The rears are virtually gone (one of them might be completely) but the fronts seem like they might still have some life in them still.

We can't tell you what you need because we can't see them. It may be possible that the shoes aren't able to properly contact the drums, causing excessive clearance (and a longer pedal travel). If the shoes need replacing, that needs to needs to be done prior to driving, regardless of any other issues.



Quote:
Update: I noticed that on both front wheel cylinders, only one side pushes out on the first pump, then on the second pump, the other side pushes out, of that makes sense. Sign of needing to be replaced?
I need to tell myself some times that I love my money pit :,) I mean, my Jeep.
The brake hydraulics are overcoming the return springs and any friction in the cylinder/backing plate. If one side has less resistance, then that is the side that will expand first. As long as both sides are moving and there are no leaks, the cylinder should be serviceable.


I'm assuming you are working with a nut and cam adjuster and not a self energizing system (self energizing systems have a single "star" adjuster at the bottom). If so, it is important that you get the proper clearance on every shoe. A single shoe that isn't close enough to the drum will cause a longer pedal travel.



Again, now may be a good time to think about upgrading. I would again recommend a swap to a dual MC. While the current MC seems to be working, the ability to loose a cylinder/brake and still have half the system working would be a huge asset. Goes for the brakes as well. Upgrading to a set of early Wagoneer 11" brakes and backing plates used to be cheap and easy to do, but as time passes, these are becoming harder and harder to find. Still, you may be money ahead by spending on an upgrade (drum or disk) instead of sinking cash into the current system.
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post #13 of 15 Old 01-20-2020, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all the help so far, everyone!

So it looks like I had a Bendix Vacuum Brake booster for the 50s on mine. it wasn't hooked up, but all the PO did was re-route the lines (pulled probably 6 ft of "extra" line off).

here is a photo of what i had on it.

The brakes are better now but I still need a solid "to the floor" push and then it has pressure. I noticed that after I have pumped it up and let it sit long enough to need to pump it again, brake fluid squirts out from the cap of the MC through what looks like a pin sized breather hole. Once the level has gone down in the MC, it stops, obviously. Is that there to prevent overfilling? can you overfill a MC? Why wouldn't it squirt out when under full pressure? haha!
One step closer...
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post #14 of 15 Old 01-20-2020, 07:46 PM
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If you have it pumped up solid, and it slowly drops the pedal to the floor, it could be internal leaking in the master cylinder, leaking past the piston seals. Only other cause of a solid pedal dropping off is a leak.


Definitely replace all rubber lines, you don't want to risk it on a 65 year old piece of worn rubber. Replace the shoes, too. If there is any question on service life, replace them and be certain. One thing to look for too is that if there is a gap between the lining and the steel shoe, that will give you a soft pedal too, as the lining is rubbing the drum giving you the "properly adjusted" feel, but then when you hit the pedal you have to compress that gap.

Rick

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post #15 of 15 Old 01-21-2020, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cutlass327 View Post
If you have it pumped up solid, and it slowly drops the pedal to the floor, it could be internal leaking in the master cylinder, leaking past the piston seals. Only other cause of a solid pedal dropping off is a leak.


Definitely replace all rubber lines, you don't want to risk it on a 65 year old piece of worn rubber. Replace the shoes, too. If there is any question on service life, replace them and be certain. One thing to look for too is that if there is a gap between the lining and the steel shoe, that will give you a soft pedal too, as the lining is rubbing the drum giving you the "properly adjusted" feel, but then when you hit the pedal you have to compress that gap.
The thing is, when it is pumped up solid, it stays solid. only when I let off, does it "reset" and require me to pump it up again. I will be replacing the shoes as soon as I figure out if this system I have will work or not. an upgrade to disk or larger drums would be great but this is a budget build for the time being. If this turns out to be the Jeep that I keep for years to come, that will be a (better) different story.
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