Recommended Repair Procedure for P3497 (Cylinder Deactivation System - Bank 2) ? - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 40 Old 05-05-2021, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
nwoods
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Okay, worked on it this evening. Successfully cleared the air bag fault. Passenger seat wiring harness came apart a bit too easily, so I re-seated it and that light went away. Yeah!

Next I removed the throttle body and thoroughly cleaned it. There was quite a bit of gunk on the outer rim of the flapper, so its safe to assume it never properly closed during normal operation. Also discovered that the sensor harness that connects to the underside of the air plenum was not seated all the way. I'll call it a MAF sensor for now. Reinstalled everything, reconnected the battery, and after a very rough start, it started running pretty smoothly, and viola! No lights on the dash at all!......... for about 15 minutes, and then the CEL came back on. FWIW< it appears to be running great. Pulls hard, idles okay, runs smooth. The first minute or so was rough, clearly missing on one or more cylinders and on the verge of stalling, but it quickly recalibrated and things were good to go....until the CEL came back on :-)

This time I got three (3) new Codes:
- P0171 - Fuel System 1/1 Lean
- P0507 - Idle speed performance higher than expected
- P0174 - Fuel System 2/1 Lean

I was able to drill down into the P0171 and get several screens of info, and also was able to enter a diagnostic mode and get Live Data (instead of through the normal Live Data button). I took screen shots of lots of various things as I sat idling in a parking lot. Not sure if its worth posting, or what to narrow down on and post pictures of.

Here are some general shots, plus details of the P0171 code:

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post #17 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 01:48 AM
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Did you disconnect the battery before unplugging the throttle body?

First impression would be a large vacuum leak somewhere on the intake. It's sucking in a lot more air than it expects. Frankly, I'm impressed, I didn't think short term fuel trims would go over 30%. The fact that both banks STFT are identical points toward a sizeable leak at the intake manifold, or sudden large drop in fuel system pressure. Or maybe just that the clean throttle is suddenly allowing so much more air through than the PCM adaptation expects, that it's suddenly running extremely lean on settings that were stoichiometric before. But I doubt the throttle was restricting that much air - +32.8% is a lot of added fuel! The reason I mentioned disconnecting the battery before unplugging the throttle body in my prior post was because I'd read that unplugging it with the PCM powered could wreak havoc on its calibration and necessitate re-learning the throttle body. I don't know if that's the case, because I always disconnect my battery. Hopefully, it's just that the PCM just hasn't figured out the throttle body yet.

If it were mine, I'd do a thorough once-over to make sure I hadn't missed re-connecting anything to cause a vacuum leak (how did the throttle body gasket look?). Then, I'd clear those codes, disconnect the battery for about half an hour, then reconnect it. Turn the key on, and scan for any codes present (there should be none) Then, take it for a drive cycle and see what happens. Make sure you get several periods of MDS engagement in there to see if the other code comes back. Scanning will force you to do this anyway, but if you don't already, I always turn my key on and wait at least 2-3 seconds before cranking it. Several sensors and the throttle calibrate after key on, and it's a good idea to let them get set and settled before cranking it.

That throttle was nasty, it's pitiful that a rebuilder would put that back on a freshly rebuilt engine in that condition.




EDIT: The more I think about it, the freeze frame indicates those codes set 54 seconds after startup when you said it was running terribly. The lean codes are two-trip codes, but we can be relatively sure your fuel trims were not good before, given the state of the throttle body. They are probably the result of the PCM trying to figure out why the settings it's been using for throttle position suddenly are resulting in a very lean mixture and will not repeat. I'm not sure if disconnecting the battery will reset your fuel trims, I believe they will. That's why I'm suggesting it, to get rid of the very miscalibrated history the PCM has with the filthy throttle body. If your scan tool can reset fuel trims, that would work too.
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Last edited by Rick_H; 05-06-2021 at 02:11 AM.
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post #18 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 02:22 AM
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I also was focused on that 32% fuel trim. thats where you should concentrate right now...

It was not there before your TB cleaning SO the TB where to look first.
Try the Old school trick, spraying carb cleaner to locate.

I am curious if the MDS codes reset? With those new codes would PCM even
command the MDS mode - we will see.

RICK_H is thinking as if the rebuilder has a warranty? I also think they need to address the MDS issue SO -
What was the engine repair shops job, did they R&R engine, just rebuild, was it disassembled when they got it. details on their "work" might help with ideas.




first photo dirty TB clean hands second photo clean TB dirty hands.

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post #19 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 03:35 AM
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Also tighten up the bolts of the intake manifold. On my previous Jeep, a few of the rubber O ring type seals of the manifold leaked; you can clearly hear a sucking sound with engine running.
Do a "hard system reset" by disconnecting both battery terminals and ground the pos terminal for few seconds. That will clear codes and reset addaptives.

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post #20 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Gentlemen, thank you for persisting with me on this. To answer some of your questions:
1. Yes, negative terminal removed prior to TB removal, but no, I did not short the terminals to reset the PCM. Easy to do and I will try that this afternoon.
2. TB Gasket was in good shape. No pinches, gaps, tears, folds, etc... Was still pliant and clean. I cleaned it with a dry silicone cleaner lube during reinstall
3. This will be funny in retrospect, but after reinstall, I just closed the hood, got in the car, started it up and drove off. I have not listened to it with the hood up to check for leaks. Doh! I know about the carb cleaner trick, and later today I will just go through it all again with the engine on and my head under the hood :-)
4. Agree that the TB and intake manifold are stupid dirty for a rebuilt motor. Here's the story:

Customer brings WK to shop with engine issue, repair cost exceeds value of car, walks away. Shop sends car to engine shop to get rebuilt, then sells car to me. The shop I bought it from did some of the work (such as MDS Solenoid replacement), but clearly did the minimum to flip the vehicle. I have the receipt from engine shop. It says:

"Reman Dodge 5.7 Engine with Machined Crankshaft, Valve Job + New Bearings, Gaskets + New Water Pump + New Rings, Customer supplying core for Long Block" Service cost was $1,750. One year warranty on all purchased parts only, no labor included. Customer responsible for valve adjustments and timing set.

I will post more this afternoon after I check the things listed above. (Pacific Standard Time)

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post #21 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I touched the battery leads for 5 minutes or so, started up the engine, which was a difficult laborious struggle to find a running RPM for a few minutes, and then things stabilized at a normal idle speed of around 800rpm. I felt and listened all the way around the engine and didn't feel any air leaks. I sprayed carb cleaner near likely leakage points, including around the TB, EGR pipe, and a few vacuum lines. No change in engine RPM. I got back in the car and low and behold, No CEL!

I drove about 15 minutes or so to a freeway, everything groovy, I was feeling mighty chipper and astonished that all my problems could be solved so easily......then I drove about 10 minutes or on the freeway, when things went wrong. I was at about 65 mph, light throttle, perfect MDS conditions, when the car kinda "bucked" (maybe a backfire?) and then the traction control light on the dash turned amber, and then the Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) warning light lit up in bright red, and the car acted like it was running on 2 or 3 cylinders, surging and stalling and lunging and stalling. I was able to get off the freeway okay and into a parking lot. I shut it all down, and plugged in my OBDII reader, and started the truck back up. It started immediately, eagerly almost, and it sounded terrific, running nice and smooth....with zero lights on the dash. However, my reader displayed the same codes as yesterday, but in pending status:
- P0171 - Fuel System 1/1 Lean
- P0507 - Idle speed performance higher than expected
- P0174 - Fuel System 2/1 Lean

I cleared, cycled off/on, restarted, then finished my loop back towards home. It was running just fine. However, as I approached home, there was a chime and then the amber CEL came back on. Sure enough:
- P0171 - Fuel System 1/1 Lean
- P0507 - Idle speed performance higher than expected
- P0174 - Fuel System 2/1 Lean

I found the Owners Manual description for the ETC warning light to be 100% accurate.
But what heck do I do about it? Currently, I am thinking maybe I should replace the Electronic Throttle Body. New MOPAR replacement and Fel-Pro gasket is $218 from RockAuto. Do you think this is a prudent move?
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post #22 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 08:41 PM
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That's got to be aggravating. In my opinion, I don't think you have enough information yet to throw a $220 part at it, but it's not my $220! It doesn't make sense that your throttle body is suddenly "bad" after a cleaning. You weren't having any of these particular issues or codes prior. Unless you dropped it on a hard surface while cleaning it, or just absolutely hosed it down with a jetspray of cleaner into the bore, or were manually forcing the throttle plate open when the throttle body was powered, there's no reason to expect it's suddenly gone bad.

I was looking back over the freeze frame data you posted, and I noticed something that had sort of struck me as odd the other day, I'm not sure it's irrelevant, it depends on whether or not you were applying any throttle at all when that code set and there's no pedal position data shown. Atmospheric pressure is around 28 inHG, this is what it would be in your intake manifold with the engine off, or running at wide open throttle.The freeze frame data indicates the vehicle was at 730 RPM, Speed 0, and throttle position was 15% when the code set. I assume this was sitting at idle with your foot off the gas pedal, that's what it looks like. However, it shows the MAP @ 16 inHG. That's too high if the vehicle is sitting there idling with the throttle fully closed to a correct idle position. It should be under 10 inHG (the pressure should be further below atmospheric when the throttle is fully closed). Assuming your check for vacuum leaks was correct and there aren't any external leaks, then the "vacuum leak" relative to your PCM's fuel program that is causing it to run lean may be your throttle plate itself. I'm not sure why the PCM isn't flagging this, however.

I'm just spitballing here. When a new throttle body is installed, the PCM has to be "taught" the electrical parameters of that particular throttle body. This is obviously usually done with a brand new, or at the very least a spotlessly clean, throttle body. That becomes the PCM's baseline knowledge of that particular TB's characteristics (i.e. exactly where is fully closed, fully open, where it needs to idle, etc). It can adapt those parameters as the vehicle ages, the throttle body carbons up, etc. to maintain proper idle performance. Usually when we clean them, it's not a big deal, it just gets the throttle body back to the PCM's baseline understanding of that throttle body that it learned when they were first paired. So the PCM is easily able to adapt to the clean throttle body, it's just back to "like new" parameters.

I assume the shop that put the rebuilt engine back in your Jeep did a throttle body relearn when they put everything back together - with that filthy dirty throttle body. Or maybe, that isn't even the original throttle body for that Jeep, maybe they slapped one out of a salvage on there, and the PCM was never "learned" on that particular throttle body. Either way, the PCM's baseline understanding of the throttle body would be totally off. So now that you've cleaned it, it has no frame of reference for how that TB is supposed to be commanded without 100k miles worth of crap built up in it. And perhaps where that throttle needs to be set for proper idle is actually below what the PCM believes is the minimum TPS for that throttle body, due to the mismatched programming.

This would explain why it's setting P0507 indicating that it's seeing an idle more than 200 RPM above what it expects. The programming it's working from doesn't match the throttle body it's trying to apply that programming to, and it can't make sense of why the RPM isn't where it should be at what it thinks it the minimum throttle setting. This mismatch would be most critical at idle throttle settings, where the PCM expects barely any air to be bypassing the throttle plate. Which, not coincidentally I suspect, is when you keep running into issues - when you are applying little to no throttle (this would likely also include when the MDS is engaging). The PCM thinks the throttle plate is fully or nearly fully shut when it isn't, and it's only injecting an amount of fuel appropriate for the very little air it thinks is passing through the throttle - and voila! You A/F ratio is super lean, cue the P0171 and P0174 codes (and maybe P3497)?

You didn't mention if you were able to monitor the LTFT and STFT while driving. I suspect you would see a slightly lean to fairly normal trim off idle, and a quite lean trim when off the gas, as the PCM tries to reconcile what it thinks it's doing with the throttle with what it's seeing from the O2 sensors.

This has all been my characteristically long-winded way of saying that if you do replace the throttle body, you're going to have to find someone or pay someone with a bi-directional scanner who can do a throttle body learn procedure with the PCM. I suggest doing that with the current throttle body before dropping $220 on a new one. Yes, if my suspicions are correct, putting the new one on will fix the problem. But not because the old one is bad, because the new one will have to be programmed to the PCM. It would be a lot cheaper to program the old one to the PCM instead, if this really is the problem. And if we're both wrong, then either you'll have a brand new $220 throttle body + programming, or a free old throttle body + programming, and the same problems you have now.
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post #23 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Rick, I feel like I should send you a diploma or something for sleuthing that all out.
Yes, I can monitor LTFT and STFT, but only one at a time, and I think there are 4 of them? I can probably record a graph of them also, but one at a time. I am curious what those acronyms mean? Also curious how you know what the baseline parameters or expected readings should be. Much respect!

As for programing am I correct in thinking that is something a dealer service tech will need to do?

The car is parked for now, I have a short trip to Texas and back. I will resume this frustrating process sometime late next week.

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post #24 of 40 Old 05-06-2021, 11:51 PM
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lights coming on like you describe has me thinking to check alt and battery, just experience. How old is battery?

Post the RPM from your scanner.
Thinking on the TPS and MAP discrepancy mentioned above, the PCM monitors and will set a "correlation" code if it see a issue.

Look in pending codes for thet P3497 harry mentioned may be rearing up.

LTFT Long Term Fuel Trims, and other is Short xxx. The amount of injected fuel added or subtracted from a 'ideal' running engine.

Is the ETC light on now?
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post #25 of 40 Old 05-07-2021, 01:07 AM
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Don't get too excited yet, as I mentioned above everything I said is just speculation and might turn out to be wrong. But at least I'll believe I came to the wrong conclusion logically!

As Jtec explained, the acronyms are Short Term Fuel Trim and Long Term Fuel Trim, and you'll have one of each for each bank of cylinders, so STFT1, LTFT1, STFT2, LTFT2. The PCM is programmed with a base fuel program for how much fuel to inject into each cylinder based on how much air it believes is entering the cylinder according to various sensors. It monitors the accuracy of that A/F ratio via the oxygen sensors. If there's too much fuel, the O2 sensors will read low oxygen in the exhaust, and if there isn't enough fuel, the O2 sensors will detect too much unburned oxygen in the exhaust. The PCM then adjusts how much fuel it injects by adjusting the injector pulsewidth, aiming for a stoichiometric mixture (14.7:1 air to fuel, most complete burn, least leftover combustion byproducts to deal with). This variation from the baseline program is called fuel trim. Positive trim means the PCM is holding the injectors open longer to inject more fuel to counter a lean condition, negative trim means it's taking fuel away to counter a rich condition. The PCM will adjust fuel trims for each cylinder bank separately. Believe it or not, some vehicles will adjust fuel trims per cylinder. I wrote a very broad description elsewhere here, but you could probably Google up far better explanations by searching for Fuel Trim diagnostics or some such.

That's why we were remarking about the STFT on both banks in the freeze frame data you posted being +32%. That means the PCM was adding 32% more fuel than its baseline program indicated should be necessary, given the amount of air it thought should be entering the cylinders. That's why we assumed vacuum leak, that's a lot of unaccounted for air to require almost 1/3 more fuel! And frankly, I'm not sure the throttle body calibration could be far enough off to explain that much fuel trim and still keep the engine running. As Jtec points out, the PCM should be setting a correlation code if there was a big problem with the MAP reading at idle, so that may be a red herring.

Traditional O2 sensors don't work until they reach about 600°, until then the PCM is in "Open Loop" and just injects fuel based on its programming. Once the engine coolant and O2 sensors reach operating temp (they have built in heaters to help speed that up), then the system goes into "Closed Loop" and the PCM starts adjust fuel trims based on the O2 readings. That's why you won't throw lean codes right away on a cold start, the vehicle has to heat up first before the PCM pays any attention to the O2 readings (it shouldn't take 15 minutes, though, more like 5-8). I was surprised to see the LTFT at zero, but it later dawned on me that you had disconnected the battery while cleaning the throttle body, so that probably reset the LTFT.

As far as doing the throttle body relearn, most any shop will have sophisticated enough scan tools to do that procedure, so pick one you trust that charges reasonable prices. Of course the dealer can do it, and has the official Chrysler diagnostic and programming tools. They'll probably be the most expensive option, but possibly also have the mechanics with the most experience with the Hemi and all it's peculiarities. If you get the luck of the draw, of course.
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post #26 of 40 Old 05-07-2021, 05:06 AM
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right now is the ETC light on?

what brand and model is this scanner?

I think I may be wrong I will look - the dodge 5.7L gear heads have a DIY relearn I will research if only for my own info.. something like key on wait X seconds (self calibrate) then hold throttle WOT, wave a chicken clockwise over head fro Xseconds key off and done.
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post #27 of 40 Old 05-07-2021, 11:55 AM
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Oops, sorry, I thought this thread started out to be MDS related. Below are the MDS "relearns" on my two 5.7's. The relearns that Rick_H is talking about below for the Throttle Body are clearly spelled out in the FCM. I'll add this info. that I spelled out on the "other" forum in a post below.

I don't know of any "relearn" on the 06's. My 06 starts working properly immediately after clearing codes, disconnecting battery, etc. My 05, on the other hand, relearns by itself in about 10 miles or so. I've found, with it, that if I drive it normal for about 5 or so miles and then stomp on it a few times, it'll start working properly sooner than if I drive it nice for the 10 miles or so.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #28 of 40 Old 05-07-2021, 02:48 PM
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Here is a possibly relevant thread on another forum, I hope it’s ok to post a link:

https://www.**********.org/threads/h...e-body.172834/

Well, apparently that forum URL is censored here. Hmm, that’s disappointing. The title of the thread is “Hemi throttle body”. You might try to search it up, the next time you’re working on your Jeep out in the garage.
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post #29 of 40 Old 05-07-2021, 05:36 PM
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Here's the throttle body relearn procedure:

From the Factory Service Manual:

5.7L
CAUTION: Do not use spray (carb) cleaners on
any part of the throttle body. Do not apply silicone
lubricants to any part of the throttle body.
1. Clean and check condition of throttle body-to-intake
manifold o-ring (2).
2. Clean mating surfaces of throttle body and intake
manifold.
3. Install throttle body to intake manifold by positioning
throttle body to manifold alignment pins.
4. Install 4 mounting bolts (2) (Refer to 14 - FUEL
SYSTEM/FUEL DELIVERY - SPECIFICATIONS) .
5. Install electrical connector (3).
6. Install air plenum.
7. A Scan Tool may be used to learn electrical parameters.
Go to the Miscellaneous menu, and then
select ETC Learn.
8. If the previous step is not performed, a Diagnostic
Trouble Code (DTC) will be set.
9. If necessary, use a scan tool to erase any Diagnostic
Trouble Codes (DTC’s) from PCM.

If you don't have access to a good scanner, there is an alternate way of doing the relearn. Below is the procedure that came with my BBK throttle body:

1.Disconnect battery for 5 minutes. Reconnect, or use a code reader to clear any stored codes in the computer. NOTE: If this is a new install, proceed to Step 2.
2. Turn ignition key to on position, do not start the engine.
3. Slowly depress the gas pedal to the floor, then slowly release it. Do this three (3) times. Turn key off.
4. Now start engine. The gas pedal is now in synch with the larger throttle body.

It should be noted, that before I bought my high end scanner and used this procedure, it took several tries to get everything to work properly. If you can't get everything set up correctly and your issues persist, you may have damaged the throttle body and will require a replacement.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #30 of 40 Old 05-08-2021, 06:08 AM
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I once cleaned TB of my first Jeep GC, a 3.7V6. Sprayed carb cleaner and then battled for days to get TB to work correctly. Even after one year, every now and then got a hick up.

And the quick TB relearn Grandoneer explained above, works for sure.

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