No Crank, No jeep, No sleep (2005 GC 5.7L) - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 17 Old 11-14-2019, 01:28 AM Thread Starter
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No Crank, No jeep, No sleep (2005 GC 5.7L)

*Please see Post #15 for the advanced diagnostic scan report*

Dear Jeep community,

2005 Jeep WH/WK Grand Cherokee 5.7L Limited

I have been losing sleep and when I do sleep, I have been dreaming of working on it and sometimes, on good nights, dream about driving it.** **

The Jeep was left for 3 months and when the fully charged battery was reinstalled I had three, two second start and stalls (the third sounded like it had very high revs) and then my current condition of no crank no start. I had an alien RFID tag on my keychain which was quickly removed and I believe I am not in the Sentry Key Immobiliser System [SKIS] lockout (please read on) yet there is still NO CRANK.

Today, when I connect a fully charged battery:

I unlock the car using the FOB Remote. I turn the key to position [On] and observe the ABS, ESP/TCS, Oil Pressure, Malfunction Indicator Light (flashes 11 times then constant) and SKIS Indicator (briefly) on the cluster. The fuel gauge is accurate. During the first ignition cycle to [On] the SKIS indicator light goes out after 3 seconds which indicates the SKIS self tests have passed nominally. Turning the ignition from position [On] to position [Start] the ABS and ESP/TCS lights go out, but there is NO CRANK. The ABS and ESP/TCS lights come back on again a few seconds after the key is returned to position [On].

During the second ignition cycle from key positions [Off] to [On], everything happens as above however the SKIS indicator light now stays solid indicating that the SKIM has detected a system malfunction and/or the SKIS has become inoperative. Turning the key to [Start] still leads to a no crank condition and this is the situation until I remove the battery, reconnect it and can replicate the SKIS indicator light going out as above.

Here is what I have tried/diagnosed:

I have used a key blade with no FOB and on the first ignition cycle the SKIS indicator light flashes, confirming that it is an invalid key and that the other Fobs are being accepted as valid.

I have left the programmed key in the ignition whilst the car is on a trickle charge to try and reset a possible lockout (I have been able to read codes without an issue so SKIM lockout may not have happened).

Jumping the car with another vehicle still yields the above no crank condition.

Battery Terminals, Fuses and relays in the Junction box, Power Distribution Centre and Integrated Power Module are all sound.

Starter motor, starter relay and the associated circuit are all good. The starter cranks beautifully when I jump the relay, and the ignition is giving 12v (at key position 1 (Start)) to the starter relay. The only one missing from this party is the PCM which is not giving a ground to pin 85 of the starter.

The Transmission range sensor is giving a ground to the PCM in Park and Neutral and the Dash indicates the correct gear as I toggle the gear lever.

After the No crank, No start condition, I tried removing an aftermarket caravan brake circuit which may explain the ABS light, it was spliced.

My ELM327 usb interface with windows software PCMscan, EFIlive, Proscan, Scanmaster and scanXL communicates with the OBDII port and I was able to read codes P1684-Battery was disconnected, and P0513- Invalid SKIM Key (originally generated from my alien RFID) but both codes have naturally cleared.

Other, possibly related issues with the Jeep:

The steering wheel lock will not engage and remains unlocked at all times.
The courtesy/cabin lights flicker intermittently.
The transmission fluid slowly leaks but the dipstick still indicates sufficient oil in the transmission box.
The AC has not been cold in the 2 months prior to the car being stored.
My TPMS has always needed servicing and the headlights were always scaringly intermittent, from memory and according to my late father, who I inherited the Jeep from.

I am located in an underground carpark next to Sydney airport with low clearance and have been told by dealers and independents that there are no DRBIIIs able to come out to the jeep. I understand it would be a lot quicker to diagnose with a DRBIII or Witech, but I am hoping I have given enough information for an experienced campaigner on this forum to logically determine the repair needed alongside me.

Could I please ask your help in isolating the repairs that needs to be made and I will be right on it, step by step.


Last edited by TorqueTalk; 11-19-2019 at 10:09 PM.
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post #2 of 17 Old 11-14-2019, 04:48 AM
acabtp
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well, i can at least cross one problem off your list - WK have no steering lock, so that's why the steering won't lock

not familiar with any of the OBD software you listed. do you know that they can read the extended chrysler module codes?

'05 WK Limited 5.7 Hemi
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post #3 of 17 Old 11-14-2019, 09:31 AM
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Check your VIN to see if there is a recall on the ignition switch. Flickering lights could be that or bad grounds/battery connections.

2013 Civic, 2009 Suzuki DRZ-400SM, 2008.5 Grand Cherokee CRD, 1991 Dodge B250, 1934 Hupmobile 417W
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post #4 of 17 Old 11-14-2019, 01:14 PM
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when you say "no crank", do you get anything at all ? do you get a single click ?

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post #5 of 17 Old 11-14-2019, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabtp View Post
well, i can at least cross one problem off your list - WK have no steering lock, so that's why the steering won't lock
not familiar with any of the OBD software you listed. do you know that they can read the extended chrysler module codes?
Thanks acabtp, can you recommend some OBD software for windows, apple or android that could read more than just P codes and from multiple modules? Have you had success with the extended chrysler module codes with anything other than witech and DRBiii? Also my Jeep is the WH, same in every useful aspect to the WK (parts, design) except its RHD and the inclusion of a steering lock. I am posting here because I need all the help I can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveROntario View Post
Check your VIN to see if there is a recall on the ignition switch. Flickering lights could be that or bad grounds/battery connections.
Thanks Steve, yes there is an outstanding recall on the ignition, P41 (key safety), which I intend to do as soon as I get it running. The output from the Fused Ignition Switch is reaching pin 86 of the starter relay when the key is turned to [Start] which rules out the ignition? The ground signal to pin 85 is not being supplied from the PCM and hence not energising the relay coil (which would allow current to pass from pin 30 to pin 87 to action the starter and crank the engine, something I am able to do manually by jumping pins 30 and 87).

I am inclined to think the bad grounds you mentioned are a factor in all of this.. there are some anomalous ground signals and continuity conflicts when I use my multimeter at the ASD relay terminals and the transmission range sensor harness. I seriously hope there is a short somewhere causing a communication error (because I can fix that) but could that lead to the symptoms I outlined in my OP? (would the PCM inhibit ground to the starter motor relay etc. as a failsafe?)

I'm also on a local forum ( ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156735 ) and have been advised just now to check the earths on the steering column, which I will do in the next few hours. Flickering cabin/courtesy lights indicate something is wrong on that circuit.. and it could it lead me to isolating the cause of my no crank condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzjwk View Post
when you say "no crank", do you get anything at all ? do you get a single click ?
Thanks yzjwk for your time, yes there are clicks from relays in the Power Distribution Center as I cycle the ignition to [On], such as HVAC, and I also hear the fuel pump in the [On] position, but nothing from the starter relay in the key [start] position. It does not receive ground at pin 85 from the PCM in key position [Start] and therefore does not energise.

Thank you for your input everyone, I look forward to reading more advice and tips as we troubleshoot this and find a way forward

Last edited by TorqueTalk; 11-15-2019 at 08:42 AM.
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post #6 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 07:56 AM
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I think some have had issues with the shift position switch or linkage alignment. Its only going to crank in park (maybe N) and if the sensor is not working or missaligned, its not going to think its in park. Don't think it would throw any faults.

I was born with nuttin' and I still have most of it.
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post #7 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post
I think some have had issues with the shift position switch or linkage alignment. Its only going to crank in park (maybe N) and if the sensor is not working or missaligned, its not going to think its in park. Don't think it would throw any faults.
Thanks ColdCase,

I have registered a ground signal from the transmission range sensor at the PCM (C4 pin 27) in both Park and Neutral, and the Dash indicates the correct gear as I toggle the gear lever.

Definitely a good place to look since its one of the main conditions the PCM needs to allow a crank. Are there any other conditions I can check out?
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post #8 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 08:52 AM
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The Yellow wire going to the starter is a no start issue on just about every WK made, so i'll throw that out there if you haven't checked yet. see post #40 in the tech write-ups for more info. https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f67/...l#post26924737
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post #9 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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When I read this last night I was thinking exactly what yzjwk said but didn't have the time to look into SKIS operation... Yes, you have some more symptoms that APPEAR to have lead up to your issue, but I don't know how much they actually do. If you take a jumper wire from the B+ to pin 87 for the starter relay, it should cause the starter to crank. If it does, you may have a computer issue not allowing it to crank. If it doesn't, look into the link above by yzjwk.

A quick look at the description and operation of the SKIS to verify says nothing about a lockout. It only says the SKIS will do what you experienced, the start then shut off after 2 seconds. I am wondering if this is just super crappy timing and you have the typical starter wire issue or even just a dead starter.

2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee - Work in progress...
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post #10 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yzjwk View Post
1- The Yellow wire going to the starter
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Thanks again yzjwk, but the starter relay circuit is solid downstream since the relay can be jumped. Although common, it is not an issue here in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2005JGC View Post
1- If you take a jumper wire from the B+ to pin 87 for the starter relay. dead starter?

2- If it does, you may have a computer issue not allowing it to crank.

3- SKIS.... says nothing about a lockout.
Thanks 2005JGC,

1- The starter cranks robustly when I jump the relay.

2- Yes the PCM is not giving a ground to the starter relay pin 85.

3- This is important and I can also not find anything in the FSM (WK) or owners manual mentioning a SKIS or SKIM lockout. There are cases on this forum of people with GC's experiencing a lockout (no crank, unable to read codes) after 3, 2 second starts and having to reset their module (trickle charger and key in [On] position for 90 minutes plus). This would be something that would inhibit a ground signal from the PCM to starter relay pin 85 but since my SKIM passes its self test on my first ignition cycle I would like help to rule it out. What other conditions would stop the PCM from providing that ground to pin 85 of the starter relay?

Thanks again for all your advice everyone, we are narrowing it down and i'm grateful
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Last edited by TorqueTalk; 11-15-2019 at 05:04 PM.
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post #11 of 17 Old 11-15-2019, 05:15 PM
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I know you have had the battery in and out a few times, I would suggest disconnecting the cables and touching them together to drain any capacitors keeping modules alive during the disconnect. Then reconnect and give it a shot.

FYI, a bit more searching did identify that the SKREEM module (security key remote electric entry module) CAN and does prevent starter operation (when the alarm is set off). It is interesting that the SKIS operation doesn't say that it can cause lockout but I would imagine it has the ability to ask the request of the SKREEM to prevent start.
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2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee - Work in progress...
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post #12 of 17 Old 11-16-2019, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2005JGC View Post
1 - disconnecting the cables and touching them together to drain any capacitors

2- SKREEM module (security key remote electric entry module) CAN and does prevent starter operation
Thanks again 2005JGC

1- I have been ensuring the capacitors are drained each time I remove the battery. This is resetting modules and is what results in the first ignition cycle differing from subsequent cycles in terms of dash light behaviour.

2- I have the ability to lock and unlock the car with the remote and the SKIM passes its self test (1st ignition cycle) and can recognise if an invalid key is inserted at anytime. The TPMS is registering the tyre pressure of three wheels and says the spare is low. I can also read codes using the OBDII port. This leads me to think the WCM is not defective in a hardware sense.

The SKIS indicator light on the dash can remain solid for a number of reasons including communication issues. What are they and how may they relate to the symptoms in my OP?





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post #13 of 17 Old 11-17-2019, 10:28 PM
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AppCar Diag or Blue Driver read all modules and sensors. AppCar does alot more including bidirectional controls, runs on windows and needs an obdi module like the ELM. BlueDriver works with your phone.
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post #14 of 17 Old 11-18-2019, 02:33 AM Thread Starter
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I went to an auto electrician today and he says im chasing my tail. He said it sounds like the Jeep is probably immobilised, the strange continuity readings from the ASD relay terminals could be anything and I also need to check the coils and injectors. I will learn how to do this in such a way as to not create new issues with the engine.. but if there is spark and fuel the car should start when I jump the starter relay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beemer9 View Post
1 - AppCar Diag... reads all modules and sensors, bidirectional controls.
Thank you Beemer9,
1- this is a nugget of gold. In terms of a reasonably priced lite alternative to DRBiii or witech, this looks the goods. I have bought the software $49 USD and have ordered an OBDlink MX+ scan tool. (my current ELM327 is version 1.5 and it is the only ELM327 version not supported, for good reason https://appcar-diagfca.com/en/how-it-works/ ).

I have the Appcar DiagFCA software and the MX+ arrives express post on Wednesday. Soon..

Last edited by TorqueTalk; 11-18-2019 at 02:48 AM.
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post #15 of 17 Old 11-19-2019, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
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Here is the advanced diagnostic scan report from just now, prior to any action from the bidirectional tool.

I hope this, coupled with the symptoms above, can help you to help me find why I have the current No Crank condition.

* I am able to run the program (New PCM) on the WCM to send the secret key to the PCM successfully which indicates both are communicating nominally? (It isnt a new PCM, I was just testing the communication between the SKIM and the PCM)
* The stored codes in the WCM relate to when I used the correct key but on the same keyring as another RFD, the day all this started (see OP).
* The radio is not factory and can boot up independent of the car running or key position.

Vehicle Scan Report

Vehicle details
My car: 2005 WK Grand Cherokee
VIN: 1****************
Odometer: *halfway to the moon*
Report generated: 20-Nov-19 1:55:33 PM
The list of available systems
AMP - Amplifier
Part no.: 05059073AO
Num of DTCs: 8
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 B1463 Active Channel 1 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
2 B1468 Active Channel 2 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
3 B146D Active Channel 3 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
4 B1472 Active Channel 4 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
5 B1477 Active Channel 5 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
6 B147C Active Channel 6 Audio Speaker Output Circuit Open
7 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
8 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

CCN - Instrument Cluster/Cabin Compartment Node
Part no.: 56050207AJ
Num of DTCs: 2
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

DDM - Driver Door Module
Part no.: 56038721AJ
Num of DTCs: 7
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 B1D35 Active Driver Mirror Heater Control Circuit Open
2 U0151 Stored Lost Communication with Occupant Restraint Controller (ORC)
3 U0156 Stored Lost Communication With Electronic Overhead Module
4 U0167 Stored Lost Communication With Intrusion Transceiver Control Module
5 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module
6 U0184 Stored Lost Communication With Radio
7 U0231 Stored Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

EOM - Electronic Overhead
Part no.: 56050242AG
Num of DTCs: 2
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

FCMCGW - Central Gateway
Part no.: 56040662AJ
Num of DTCs: 5
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 B162C Active Left Low Beam Control Circuit High
2 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
3 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
4 U0151 Stored Lost Communication with Occupant Restraint Controller (ORC)
5 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module

FDCM - Final Drive Control/All Wheel Drive
Part no.: 68235713AB
Num of DTCs: 4
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 C140A Stored Transfer Case Motor Performance
2 U0100 Stored Lost Communication With ECM/PCM
3 U0101 Stored Lost Communication with TCM
4 U0415 Stored Implausible Data Received from ABS

HSM - Heated Seat Module
Part no.: 04602327AH
Num of DTCs: 4
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
3 U0151 Stored Lost Communication with Occupant Restraint Controller (ORC)
4 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module

HVAC - Heat, Ventilation and A/C
Part no.: 55111011AD
Num of DTCs: 3
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0151 Stored Lost Communication with Occupant Restraint Controller (ORC)
3 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module

ITM - Intrusion
Part no.: 56038728AG
Num of DTCs: 5
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 B1A3C Active Internal Siren Battery
2 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
3 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
4 B1A3F Stored ITM Arming Sequence Performance
5 U110D Stored Lost Communication with Security Siren

MSMD - Memory Seat
Part no.: 04602326AO
Num of DTCs: 2
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

ORC - Occupant Restraint
Part no.: 04606938AD
Num of DTCs: 5
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
3 B212D Stored Ignition Run Only Input Circuit Open
4 U1414 Stored Implausible/Missing ECU Network Configuration Data
5 U1415 Stored Implausible/Missing Vehicle Configuration Data

PCM - Powertrain Control Module
Part no.: 56044596AI
Num of DTCs: 0

PDM - Passenger Door Module
Part no.: 56038721AJ
Num of DTCs: 6
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
3 U0151 Stored Lost Communication with Occupant Restraint Controller (ORC)
4 U0156 Stored Lost Communication With Electronic Overhead Module
5 U0167 Stored Lost Communication With Intrusion Transceiver Control Module
6 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module

PTS - Parktronics
Part no.: 05026016AB
Num of DTCs: 4
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module
3 U0156 Stored Lost Communication With Electronic Overhead Module
4 U0168 Stored Lost Communication With Vehicle Security Control Module

SCM - Steering Column
Part no.: 56050097AL
Num of DTCs: 2
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 U0184 Active Lost Communication With Radio
2 U0231 Active Lost Communication With Light Rain Sensing Module

TCM - Transmission Control Module
Part no.: 05094298AC
Num of DTCs: 1
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 P1684 Stored Battery Was Disconnected

WCM - Wireless Control
Part no.: 56040638AW
Num of DTCs: 2
No. DTC code DTC status Description
1 B1A25 Stored Invalid Key
2 B1A35 Stored Unidentified Key Communication Error

Thank you in advance for your analysis, I havent cleared any codes (except the WCM) because I do not want to cover the trail towards a solution. Anyone out there who can connect these dots please comment and we could be close to a solution.

Last edited by TorqueTalk; 11-19-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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