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post #1 of 18 Old 09-26-2016, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
Jeff000
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EGR delete?

Does the EGR valve do any good? Do they make a delete for it?

Just wondering if it is worth the 70 dollar part to replace or not. I'm getting code P0406.

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post #2 of 18 Old 09-26-2016, 03:46 PM
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What engine do you have? And no, they are never good.
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post #3 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 01:02 PM
90grandoneer
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Originally Posted by 05AKWK View Post
What engine do you have? And no, they are never good.
Total and complete BS. The EGR System is one of the few emission control devices that actually, for the most part, does some good and not cause a big hit to performance and economy. Deleting it, aside from causing you to fail the emissions test, may help shorten the life of your engine due to unnecessary increased combustion temperatures over the life of the engine, cause MIL/DTC codes, and won't do much to improve engine performance....if anything it may reduce performance (timing) by retarding the timing due to the increased combustion temperatures and possibility of the PCM forcing knock retard. The biggest down sides of the EGR is the potential of increased carbon buildup and it's response to throttle position changes lags.....is not instantaneous.

Here's a portion of a write-up dealing with the EGR System:

"The substitution of burnt gas (which takes no further part in combustion) for oxygen rich air reduces the proportion of the cylinder contents available for combustion. This causes a correspondingly lower heat release and peak cylinder temperature, and reduces the formation of NOx. The presence of an inert gas in the cylinder further limits the peak temperature (more than throttling alone in a spark ignition engine).

The gas to be recirculated may also be passed through an EGR cooler, which is usually of the air/water type. This reduces the temperature of the gas, which reduces the cylinder charge temperature when EGR is employed. This has two benefits- the reduction of charge temperature results in lower peak temperature, and the greater density of cooled EGR gas allows a higher proportion of EGR to be used."

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #4 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 90grandoneer View Post
Total and complete BS. The EGR System is one of the few emission control devices that actually, for the most part, does some good and not cause a big hit to performance and economy. Deleting it, aside from causing you to fail the emissions test, may help shorten the life of your engine due to unnecessary increased combustion temperatures over the life of the engine, cause MIL/DTC codes, and won't do much to improve engine performance....if anything it may reduce performance (timing) by retarding the timing due to the increased combustion temperatures and possibility of the PCM forcing knock retard. The biggest down sides of the EGR is the potential of increased carbon buildup and it's response to throttle position changes lags.....is not instantaneous.

Here's a portion of a write-up dealing with the EGR System:

"The substitution of burnt gas (which takes no further part in combustion) for oxygen rich air reduces the proportion of the cylinder contents available for combustion. This causes a correspondingly lower heat release and peak cylinder temperature, and reduces the formation of NOx. The presence of an inert gas in the cylinder further limits the peak temperature (more than throttling alone in a spark ignition engine).

The gas to be recirculated may also be passed through an EGR cooler, which is usually of the air/water type. This reduces the temperature of the gas, which reduces the cylinder charge temperature when EGR is employed. This has two benefits- the reduction of charge temperature results in lower peak temperature, and the greater density of cooled EGR gas allows a higher proportion of EGR to be used."
I was gonna say something, but 90 pretty much destroyed it. I will agree with what he said. I looked into EGR deleting as well, and came upon the same research.

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post #5 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 04:52 PM
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Some say EGR delete helps with performance and economy. I am not buying it, but in the interest of "unofficial research" I just went out and shut the EGR System off in my Hemi LX (modded exactly like my Hemi WK) using a Diablosport Predator Tuner....circa about 2006-2007, which is before they eliminated this feature. Seems the EPA got after them because it was disabling part of the emissions system. I was also going to do it on the WK but by 2009, when I bought my WK, they had already removed the feature. With my onboard DashHawk I can monitor almost everything in real time, so I'll look at things like engine operating temperature (normally runs 190-200*), knock retard (normally 0 unless on it hard, then momentary ~2-5* retard), timing (which is usually all over the place so may not help), and verify that the EGR System is indeed turned off. I'll also do fuel economy calculations (manually using GPS mileage), as the LX is pretty consistent in fuel economy....14-16 mpg in town (depending on amount of stop and go) and 26-28 mpg on the highway at ~63-67 mph. I'll report back in a week or two after I do a few short (~75-150 mile) trips (one of the benefits of retirement) and a little around town driving. Should be interesting, because inquiring minds want to know, and besides I like to experiment/tinker.
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06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #6 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90grandoneer View Post
Total and complete BS. The EGR System is one of the few emission control devices that actually, for the most part, does some good and not cause a big hit to performance and economy. Deleting it, aside from causing you to fail the emissions test, may help shorten the life of your engine due to unnecessary increased combustion temperatures over the life of the engine, cause MIL/DTC codes, and won't do much to improve engine performance....if anything it may reduce performance (timing) by retarding the timing due to the increased combustion temperatures and possibility of the PCM forcing knock retard. The biggest down sides of the EGR is the potential of increased carbon buildup and it's response to throttle position changes lags.....is not instantaneous.

Here's a portion of a write-up dealing with the EGR System:

"The substitution of burnt gas (which takes no further part in combustion) for oxygen rich air reduces the proportion of the cylinder contents available for combustion. This causes a correspondingly lower heat release and peak cylinder temperature, and reduces the formation of NOx. The presence of an inert gas in the cylinder further limits the peak temperature (more than throttling alone in a spark ignition engine).

The gas to be recirculated may also be passed through an EGR cooler, which is usually of the air/water type. This reduces the temperature of the gas, which reduces the cylinder charge temperature when EGR is employed. This has two benefits- the reduction of charge temperature results in lower peak temperature, and the greater density of cooled EGR gas allows a higher proportion of EGR to be used."
Thanks for the info. I'll make sure my issue is failed egr and just replace it.

I have a 5.7l engine.
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post #7 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 05:25 PM
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Ah....... someone is finally going to answer the question. I'm surprised someone still has the R12 tune on the predator. It's rare to see someone who had the brains not to update. I wasn't so smart and had to get a tune to turn it off to install the delete kit.
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post #8 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 05:35 PM
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Jeff, if you're getting the code, reset it and see if it almost immediately returns. Symptoms of a bad EGR Valve are, low speed (~35-45 mph) surging, rough almost stalling idle, and poor performance and fuel economy. Many have experienced failures at relatively low mileages, while others have lasted over 100K. The one on my WK failed around 60K. The very best way to check the valve is with a computerized diagnostic tool with the capability of manually operating the valve, or with an actual EGR Valve tester. I have both, an Autel DS708 and an AC Delco Model 47062 EGR System Tester and Model 47001 Domestic/Asian Adapter Kit. This way you can see if the valve is operating as commanded by the tester(s). Also, I believe all of the valves you can get today are made in China and some have experienced bad valves right out of the box. Try to get a "name brand" like Wells or Standard Motor Products, not some no name one. Do a search and see if you can find one of the "How To's" on the forum. It's not a tough job, but one bolt can give you a problem. Also, be careful with the tube seal where it goes into the intake manifold. If you ruin it, you'll have to go to the stealer to get another one, as I don't believe you can get one at your local parts store. When I did mine, I didn't even remove the tube from the manifold.....just rotated it out of the way and tied it off while I worked on the valve. Once you get the "difficult" bolt out (IIRC, it's the inboard one) cut about 3/16 in. off the threaded area and grind the recess of the head of the bolt. This will make it easier next time.....if there is a next time. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #9 of 18 Old 09-27-2016, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal300 View Post
Ah....... someone is finally going to answer the question. I'm surprised someone still has the R12 tune on the predator. It's rare to see someone who had the brains not to update. I wasn't so smart and had to get a tune to turn it off to install the delete kit.
I have all the Predator "crom" files for both the LX and WK on the computer, but I don't think you can install earlier ones back on once you've gone to a newer version.

By the way, my son and I installed the 3.06 Limited Slip Getrag in Maggie last weekend. Took 5 hours with no problems......just a small PITA. Hope this minor change in gearing won't upset the "unofficial testing" of the EGR delete. We'll see how it goes.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #10 of 18 Old 09-29-2016, 11:17 AM
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Installing an old crom doesn't work from my experience. I tried it once I realized what R13 didn't have.
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post #11 of 18 Old 09-29-2016, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal300 View Post
Installing an old crom doesn't work from my experience. I tried it once I realized what R13 didn't have.
Just went out and checked the data on mine:
--U7135
--Built 08/27/08
--Crom Ver. R09 08

Looks like I didn't update mine at all.

Just a little prelim and first impressions on the EGR delete after about 100 miles of mixed city/rural driving. I'll do a short 150 mile trip tomorrow to further see if there are any differences:
--It's definitely shut off......all zeroes on DashHawk Commanded %age EGR and Error %age EGR
--No difference in engine operating temperature
--No noticeable difference in fuel flow and fuel trims
--No difference, so far, in fuel economy (currently reading 16.5 mpg), using only EVIC at this time. Will do hand calculations and fill up before and after for tomorrow's little trip.
--No significant difference in Knock Retard (KR) at Wide Open Throttle. I saw 5* KR (seemed to stay at that a little longer than normal) from ~50-90 mph on one WOT run.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #12 of 18 Old 09-30-2016, 07:28 PM
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I did a little road trip today in my Hemi LX (modded exactly like my Hemi WK except for cam advance) with the EGR shut off to see if there is any difference. My normals for this vehicle are found in Post No. 5 of this thread. Here are the results:
--156.4 miles on 5.5 gallons of non-ethanol fuel. Tank was filled with 3/4 full of 87 and 1/4 full of 91 fuel before departing and, using the same pump on return it was refilled with 91 octane non-ethanol fuel. This calculates to 28.436 mpg for the trip. This is about normal for this vehicle.
--Altitudes ranged from ~2400-4000 ft.
--Temperatures ranged from ~72-84*F. Air conditioning off outbound and on inbound.
--EVIC reading for the outbound leg was 26.7 mpg and the inbound leg was 30.7 mpg, so the EVIC was not that far off when these numbers are averaged (28.7 mpg). This is about normal for this vehicle.
--Vehicle speed both inbound and outbound was 65 mph except for 3 WOT runs, one to ~90 mph, one to ~101 mph and one to ~97 mph.
--MDS (both ways) was active ~85-95% of the time. This is normal with this vehicle which has aftermarket cam advanced 6* for a total of 10*.
--EGR System was shut off with the Diablosport Predator Tuner the entire time. Tune is a modified 93 octane tune.
--Operating engine temperature was 189-192 for the entire trip. Thermostat is a 190* with fans coming on at 200*. This is normal.
--Fuel trims and fuel flows were normal.....long and short term 0-minus 5, fuel flows, ~2.1-3.5 gph, depending on road incline/decline.
-- Knock retard ranged from zero at cruise to ~6-7* momentary at WOT. This is slightly higher and lasted slightly longer than normal.

So, my assessment of the "EGR DELETE" after about 250 miles of driving is that in most ways it makes no difference whether it's on or off. The only thing that was slightly different was the amount and length of time Knock Retard occurred at WOT. Everything else was as it is with the EGR working. After the fill up today I'll run this tank down and then turn it back on so I don't encounter any of the issues I identified in my Post No. 3.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #13 of 18 Old 10-01-2016, 05:41 AM
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I wonder how the EGR would compare on a diesel. I deleted mine on my CRD, and after seeing some of the piping for it I can say for my OM642 the EGR system blocks a lot of the intake air coming in through the "throttle body". Also, since the OM642 is turbo'd you get some oil blow by that does make its way into the intake track and mixes with the sooty diesel exhaust from the EGR and does clog the entire intake track up quite a bit.
On a gasser, I don't see any advantages other than if you were actually building a race/high performance engine and wanted a cleaner look in the engine bay. I deleted my EGR on my 85 corvette because the valve was bad and for $50 I could buy block off plates or for $250 I could buy a new EGR valve, which still wouldn't guarantee that it would work correctly due to the age of all the pieces involved.


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post #14 of 18 Old 10-01-2016, 07:31 AM
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Although I took mine off for aesthetic reasons. I did notice a substantial decrease in the amount of baked on crud on the inside surface of the throttle body.
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post #15 of 18 Old 10-01-2016, 10:01 AM
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Although I took mine off for aesthetic reasons. I did notice a substantial decrease in the amount of baked on crud on the inside surface of the throttle body.
Yes, I am sure that would be very true, but you shouldn't be getting much anyway if you have a catch can on it. Both mine, with catch cans, have very little accumulation, just stuff that easily wipes off. Catch cans to catch a lot of crap though.

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