2008 PCM/TCM in a 2006 Hemi Jeep - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 41 Old 06-27-2020, 07:30 PM
caulk04
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Well the new 08 PCM should have a perfectly usable shift schedule in there for 2-2p and 2p-2 and you can fiddle from there.

One nice thing with hpt is we can all share tunes and use the nice compare feature. I'll send you a copy of my most recent file and a couple tips I was given.


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post #17 of 41 Old 06-28-2020, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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Well, I've found out that I have to use some more credits to be able to write files to the 2008 PCM/TCM. They have it set up so you can't somehow cheat the system. We won't be able to share actual files for that same reason. We can, however post our tables and histograms and transfer the data to our respective files. I've been doing that on the 300, because I made the mistake of doing some files on the beta version and some on the new version and they are not interchangeable.....basically no backward compatibility.....or so it appears.

The wife and I went for a ride this morning (coffee date) and, for the first time, I tried messing with the autostick. I discovered the 2P now being 3rd (only about 200-300 RPM difference between 2 and 2P). I like it. The other thing I've discovered is that, with this PCM/TCM my MDS is not near as active as it was before, but that may be because I have not set the transmission up yet. We also got on the interstate a bit and I may set it up a little differently than I did with the stock unit......lower some of the up shift RPM. It also seems that the forced down shifts are better with this unit than the old one, and may not need a whole lot of tweaking. I told the wife that this is really cool so far, but the bad thing is that I get to potentially spend a lot of time again getting it the way I want it.

I got your attachments (THANK YOU) and will study them soon. Did the pressure settings firm up the shifts or ???? So far, all I've done is load a modified (by me) DS 93 tune, but I think I now have too much timing, as I am getting a bunch of knock retard and misfires that are triggering codes for both. This is only at WOT though, so I am not too worried about it and it should be an easy fix.....maybe narrow plug gaps (they're at about .060 in. due to SOS ignition coils), and retard the timing some more. All takes time....one or two things at a time.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #18 of 41 Old 06-28-2020, 05:31 PM
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I've not noticed any issues going to the beta version, but I guess I may have only been using the beta since I got it to work.

I've often thought the MDS could be more active than it is, I find it sightly erratic.

I've fiddled with the pressure quite a bit (note the labeling is 'wrong') and more or less gave up. They're all up, some I've bumped back down as I found a little harsh. There's another table for upshift duty cycle, I've gone up 10-15% on those. It's the base duty cycle for each upshift before any modifiers.

Also, in the other screen shot it covers the shift modes 1-6. 6 is mislabeled as DSM when it's actually cruise. No matter to me, I keep the lockup thresholds the same for all shift modes.

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post #19 of 41 Old 06-28-2020, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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I've not noticed any issues going to the beta version, but I guess I may have only been using the beta since I got it to work.

I've often thought the MDS could be more active than it is, I find it sightly erratic.

I've fiddled with the pressure quite a bit (note the labeling is 'wrong') and more or less gave up. They're all up, some I've bumped back down as I found a little harsh. There's another table for upshift duty cycle, I've gone up 10-15% on those. It's the base duty cycle for each upshift before any modifiers.

Also, in the other screen shot it covers the shift modes 1-6. 6 is mislabeled as DSM when it's actually cruise. No matter to me, I keep the lockup thresholds the same for all shift modes.
I didn't have a problem with the beta version until I downloaded the newest "real" version. Since then I can't interchange files between them. I still have one computer with the older version and the files seem to work fine on it. I think from now on, I'll not do betas anymore.

I agree on the MDS. It does seem to be a little erratic. Time will tell once the shift schedules are sorted out.

I am glad you've been fiddling with it. I looked at the transmission stuff a little this afternoon and it is completely different than the "easy" NAG1's. I set my 1-2, 2-3 and 3-4 up shifts with the DS Tuner and then checked what the output shaft RPM is at WOT, 100% throttle opening. The 1-2 shaft RPM was right on, but all the rest were quite a bit off for some reason. Don't know if it has something to do some of the other settings or not. I plan to hit the FSM tomorrow and study up a bit and see if any of it makes sense, as none of those tables and histograms mean anything to me.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #20 of 41 Old 06-28-2020, 08:01 PM
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I doubt you'll find anything in the FSM. I noticed my shift points (particularly down shifts) were pretty far off after going from the SC to the hpt.

If you log the output shaft and turbine rpm with your speed and rpm that can help a lot. I chose to make mental notes of speed/rpm while I drove and then calculated to the necessary output shaft and turbine RPM for tuning.

I'd love more explanation on the ramp rate of acceleration and other tables. I know they affect the shift speed (lower number = faster) but there's often an A and B for each shift and so on. Those are the murkiest of the shift settings IMO.

The individual shift points are labeled well enough, as are the curves for lockup and release in each gear. Why there are separate tables for lockup and release thresholds is confusing to me, it's redundant and more obtuse.

I'm certain you'll be able to pick away at it every bit as well as I have.

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post #21 of 41 Old 06-29-2020, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by caulk04 View Post
I doubt you'll find anything in the FSM. I noticed my shift points (particularly down shifts) were pretty far off after going from the SC to the hpt.

If you log the output shaft and turbine rpm with your speed and rpm that can help a lot. I chose to make mental notes of speed/rpm while I drove and then calculated to the necessary output shaft and turbine RPM for tuning.

I'd love more explanation on the ramp rate of acceleration and other tables. I know they affect the shift speed (lower number = faster) but there's often an A and B for each shift and so on. Those are the murkiest of the shift settings IMO.

The individual shift points are labeled well enough, as are the curves for lockup and release in each gear. Why there are separate tables for lockup and release thresholds is confusing to me, it's redundant and more obtuse.

I'm certain you'll be able to pick away at it every bit as well as I have.
I didn't find the down shifts to be as far off as I thought they would be. What I am after on those is very little additional throttle added to force a down shift to the next lower gear.....the more throttle added, the more it down shifts. That's the way I have the LX's and the previous Jeep settings. I can go from 3rd or 4th to 1st from about 40 mph and below. On the highway I could go from 4th to 2nd from about 65 mph. Sure makes them come alive because it puts the engine RPM of mine right into the middle of the power curves.

That's the way I calculated the up shifts on the LX's.....using output shaft RPM and desired engine RPM. Worked well. This is where I have a problem with the 545RFE, because the current numbers (all up shifts except the 1-2) don't all jive with what they should be using the same calculation method. I'll have to do some experimenting with that.

The ramp rate of acceleration and those other tables you speak of are total Greek to me. I've not seen anything like them before. Again, more experimenting is needed.

I don't think I'll be picking this stuff up as easy as you though. I believe you're a whole lot more technology savvy than I am. Remember, I grew up in the age when MS-DOS was the operating system......no Windows or stuff like that.

What kind of pressure increases did you use to firm up the shifts? I've used two more credits so I can now upload the files for the new PCM/TCM. I've flipped the switch on the 2-2P and love it. I've only driven it a short distance this way so far and I have a few other minor issues I have to work through......losing communitcation with the PCM/TCM (I am hoping it's the ground), and my No. 6 cylinder misfire has come back and will require a little investigating. I'll try and address these two things sometime this week before it heats up again.

I've also turned on the Daytime Running Lights (DRL) which my scanner says that once you do that, you can't reverse it. I had to change the Country Code to Canada to make it work. Then I started getting a code (B2204) for ECU configuration mismatch. I thought that since it said I couldn't reverse the DRL status once turned on, I just switched the Country Code back to U.S. I haven't driven it since switching back so I'll later see if this works.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #22 of 41 Old 06-29-2020, 01:00 PM
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I think comparing the output shaft speed and engine RPM is where you're having trouble. It's near impossible to account for how much converter slip you have, unless it's locked of course. With my tires, a know that 60mph is ~2510 driveshaft/output shaft RPM. From there I just do the math and know that ~42 shaft RPM is 1mph and I can bump the graphs around as I see fit.

Are you aware that you can alter the axis numbers as well? As in the throttle % points. When in a window for a given chart, click the axis label above it. That will open a new window that is just the labels for that axis and you can change them in case there's a little mismatch/clash with another data point or if you want to fine tune a certain area more than another.

Also, are you not using the compare feature? You should be able to open my tune that I sent and use it as a compare to quickly reference differences in shift pressures and points. You can even copy/paste cells or entire tables from the compare to the main.

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post #23 of 41 Old 06-29-2020, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by caulk04 View Post
I think comparing the output shaft speed and engine RPM is where you're having trouble. It's near impossible to account for how much converter slip you have, unless it's locked of course. With my tires, a know that 60mph is ~2510 driveshaft/output shaft RPM. From there I just do the math and know that ~42 shaft RPM is 1mph and I can bump the graphs around as I see fit.

Are you aware that you can alter the axis numbers as well? As in the throttle % points. When in a window for a given chart, click the axis label above it. That will open a new window that is just the labels for that axis and you can change them in case there's a little mismatch/clash with another data point or if you want to fine tune a certain area more than another.

Also, are you not using the compare feature? You should be able to open my tune that I sent and use it as a compare to quickly reference differences in shift pressures and points. You can even copy/paste cells or entire tables from the compare to the main.
Strange that on the NAG1's I could calculate the output shaft RPM needed by dividing the desired RPM by the transmission gear ratio I was working with. Like I said, this only comes out right on the 1-2 shift and all the rest are way off using the same procedure. In any case, it's good to know that one mile per hour equals about 42 shaft RPM.

I was unaware of any of the stuff in your second paragraph. See I told you that you'll do a lot better than I would on this stuff. I've also not used the compare feature. What I've been doing is pulling up the HPT program twice, loading the files I want to look at and then compare them or duplicate them that way. I am sure this would take a lot longer than using the compare feature. Maybe I'll have to learn how to use that. Me thinks you'll need to email me more of your secrets. You're obviously farther ahead of where I am after only a couple months and I've been messing, off and on, for at least two years.

For sure, too much technology makes my head spin, as I can't get it wrapped around some of this stuff. Give me the mechanic stuff and I am OK.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #24 of 41 Old 06-29-2020, 05:11 PM
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Well you run a smaller tire than I do, so you'll want to do the math for your tire size if you want to use that method. A cheat would be to just log your output shaft RPM at a known speed and extrapolate from there.

In HPT, open your file that you want to edit/load, then click the Compare drop down and open a compare file (mine, another of yours, whatever). To the left of the read/write buttons is a switch to flip metric/imperial. Left of that is three buttons that will toggle between viewing the main or compare files and one that will show the delta between the two. You can click these three buttons in any of the tables to flip-flop. Any table that has a difference will be shaded green or red so you can pick them out easily.

Clicking the area with the black arrow will open the window that is on top and allow editing of the data in the red arrow. Crude demonstration, but dern near a game changer for some areas. Many of them have overlapping points that, if smoothed, allow for a much more tuneable curve.
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post #25 of 41 Old 06-29-2020, 06:01 PM
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A little logged demo on why I think you're having trouble with the shift timing. Notice that the engine rpm and turbine (trans input) rpm are mismatched. Also notice it's low throttle at 18.3% TPS.

My tune calls for the 1-2 shift at 544rpm (output rpm) in the 18% cell. Moving the log a couple clicks shows the shift takes place exactly as commanded. If you were to want the shift to happen at 1700rpm and backfigure that with the 3:1 gear ratio, you'd have that commanded at 566. A small difference, but it would be much more pronounced in higher gears and higher rpm.

Turbine RPM is what you'll want for lockup tables and you can guess/check for that or take your speed and/or output RPM then multiply by the current gear to get the turbine RPM. One of the biggest A-HA moments and hurdles for me was NOT watching the tach and instead noting speed in my head so I could adjust the tune.
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post #26 of 41 Old 06-30-2020, 09:17 AM
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Wow, This is deep!! I will be printing this info for my notes!! Hp tune bound! Bring on auto 6 speed for my 08. I have a bunch of catching up to get where you guys are but 1st things 1st. I have the engine tweak 1st then I'll be picking your brains to tune that! Maybe I'll attempt the enable 2p option will I'm waiting on all my parts though. Thanks guys
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post #27 of 41 Old 06-30-2020, 11:10 AM
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Turning on the '6spd' is easy. That picture I have the arrows on...

Click the button that says 'Trans' with the little gear. That will open the window you see with arrows over it. Under the 'General' tab you'll see a switch for 2-2p enable. That's it. From there you can do endless playing with everything else.

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post #28 of 41 Old 06-30-2020, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Wow, This is deep!! I will be printing this info for my notes!! Hp tune bound! Bring on auto 6 speed for my 08. I have a bunch of catching up to get where you guys are but 1st things 1st. I have the engine tweak 1st then I'll be picking your brains to tune that! Maybe I'll attempt the enable 2p option will I'm waiting on all my parts though. Thanks guys
Don't feel bad, I've had my HPT for over a couple years now and caulk04 is way ahead of me already, and he's only had his for a month or so.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #29 of 41 Old 06-30-2020, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Just a little side note for you guys that tow stuff, you'd probably really love this little mod.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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post #30 of 41 Old 07-01-2020, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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I am glad I didn't start messing with any of the engine or transmission setting with this PCM/TCM swap yet. Today, the wife and I took a little 60 mile ride to see how it worked on the highway. The 2008 PCM/TCM is stock, except for a modified by me, Diablosport (DS) 93 octane tune with the timing retarded 4 degrees and a few other minor tweaks. Anyway, the route we went is the same one we've done many times with the Jeep the way it was setup before. Here's some what I think are pretty cool observations that can only be attributed to the new PCM/TCM or the DS tune, or both.

--When the engine is cold, the MDS doesn't start working as quickly as it used to, but when it does, it stays on longer than with the other PCM.....old one worked below 31% absolute load, the new one works at 34% absolute load or below which means I am getting more MDS time than I was getting before. On this route, and anytime on a level or slightly hilly highway, the MDS would be active more than 90% of the time. I also noticed on one slight hill that the MDS used to shut off on about half way up, now it stays on all the way up the hill.
--Since changing to the 2008 PCM/TCM, I've started getting misfire codes which I hadn't gotten in a long time.....almost a year since the last one. Now, from cold engine to warm engine the it seems to work fine but, if I turn the engine off and then restart it, within about a mile the misfire code will become pending, but I never, ever feel any misfires. If I reset the code, and drive normally (that's tough for me to do), the code will not reappear. I'll be pulling the plugs and check things over anyway, hopefully tomorrow.
--Now for the good stuff on our short little trip. Again we do this jaunt all the time to go to breakfast at a really neat truck stop about 30 miles away. Today, going outbound (no wind and about 60 degrees), driving at 65 mph, the EVIC showed 21.2 mpg when we arrived. I usually get between 20-23 mpg figured with a calculator, and usually a little lower or higher than actual on the EVIC, depending on driving conditions and amount of MDS on time. On the return trip, still with no wind and about 63 degrees, the EVIC read 24.5 mpg when we got off the Interstate. I am sure these are not the actual mileages but, if it figures the same way it always has, it's probably still somewhere around 24 mpg on the return leg. I've only gotten over 24 mpg, figured with a calculator, a couple times prior to this. Anyway, I am going to pretty much leave the engine tune alone, (just fix the misfire) and not mess with the transmission as much as originally planned, at least not right now. With the HP Tuner I'll firm up the shifts and change the 2-3 up shift, which is really 2 to 2P up shift now that it's a 6 speed. The stock 2008 PCM/TCM has the shift from 2-3 almost immediately after the 1-2 shift and sometimes you can barely feel it has shifted, as there is only about 300 RPM difference between 2nd and 3rd. After doing these few things, I'll just drive it for a while and do some real mileage checks and see if it is for real. I'll also make mental notes on other little tweaks I may want to do down the line.

When we got home, I also put my scanner on it like I've been doing every time I drive it since I changed the PCM/TCM. I guess the vehicle has decided not to reject the new one, as I am no longer getting the code that says there is an "ECU mismatch". Now I am down to basically one code....the pending misfire.

Gotta say, this is starting to be fun.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, 6spd 545RFE, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and, SOLD Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8 just replaced with 2021 Tesla Model S Plaid with 1020 hp and 1050 lb. ft. of torque.
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