2005 WK 5.7 Heavy engine knock, stalling, hard start, out of nowhere - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 39 Old 08-21-2018, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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2005 WK 5.7 Heavy engine knock, stalling, hard start, out of nowhere

Hello, im new to the forum but i was really hoping to get some insight on a problem that i have been having. Over the last few months my 2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi with 190,000 miles has been occasionally taking a bit of time for me to crank over the engine 5(sec). So i went ahead and replaced the fuel pump assembly with a bosch fuel pump. Today while driving it (week later after replacing the fuel pump), it was going all well until i shut off the car. When trying to start the car the engine just kept cranking and would not start. The more i tried cranking it the more the engine would try to start, i could maybe keep it running for a second or two if i hit the gas while engaging the starter. But heres what really got to me, when i was hitting the gas the engine was knocking/misfiring then stalling right after. I was wondering if this is some known issue and what i could do to solve it.

The engine has no codes, the spark plugs were replaced 10k miles ago with the proper copper ones, fuel pump (bosch) is maybe 200 miles old, oil is at a normal level. What could this be? This has never happened before.

Thank you in advance.

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post #2 of 39 Old 08-22-2018, 10:25 AM
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Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of your problem(s). From your description, it is very possible you have a dropped valve seat.....a somewhat common occurrence in some of the early Hemi's. Did this knocking begin after you had shut the warm engine off and let it set for a several minutes (like stop for gas, convenience store, etc.) and then, upon attempted restart, begin knocking and poorly running? If this is the case, this is a fairly common scenario when the dropped seat occurs. If this is the situation and you continued to attempt to start the vehicle and added more and more throttle if/when it ran, you have probably totally destroyed the engine. Folks that this has happened to have incurred costs anywhere from ~$2000 to around $10,000 depending on the damage and whether they just had minor repairs, installed a used engine (which can also have this problem in its future) or a complete rebuild.

I have two early Hemi vehicles, both in the "window" of potential failure and opted to be proactive and pull them both apart and replace ALL the valves seats in the cylinder heads. I also run cooler thermostats and have cooling fan start temperatures set to lower temperatures. This should preclude any occurrence of a dropped valve seat, which is widely thought to be the cause (excessive heat) of this issue, along with Chrysler's poor engineering in the seat to head clearances.

Good luck and we hope you don't end up with a serious issue. Keep us posted.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #3 of 39 Old 08-22-2018, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response, very informative. This hard start followed by knocking/misfire and stalling did begin after the warm engine sat for a few minutes. If it does come down to the valve seats, would i just be looking at replacing the heads or is there a chance that the pistons got the best of it too? And if the heads do need to be replaced are there any known quality aftermarket ones with reinforced valve seats that most people like to use?

Ill keep this updated as I find out what happened.
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post #4 of 39 Old 08-22-2018, 02:27 PM
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You may want to do an internet search on, "Early Hemi dropped valve seats", as it will give you a good idea of what you're up against, IF this is your problem.

As I said above, if you continued to try and start/run it AFTER you heard the knocking...and this is what indeed happened, you've probably completely ruined the engine. If you're lucky it'll just be limited to the affected cylinder....perhaps a new head and new piston. If it scored the cylinder wall, you'll probably have to pull the whole engine apart. With 190K on the engine, I'd probably opt for a new/rebuilt engine, BUT ONLY if the rest of the vehicle is in very good to excellent shape. If you just try and replace the broken parts, have all the valve seats on both heads replaced, not just on the affected cylinder....in other words, all 8 seats on the affected head. Then pull the other head too and have all the seats replaced on it. Total cost of seats/valve job shold be under $1000 if that's all that needs to be done to the heads. You should also probably replace the intake manifold, as many times debris gets back up into the intake plenum. Some have just fixed the one that went bad and put it back together, and soon thereafter had one or more drop on the same head and/or the other head. That means tear it down again. That's why I opted to pull both of my Hemi's apart and have them all replaced.

Hopefully some folks with first hand experience will chime in and give you their 2 cents worth and experiences with this issue. In any case, if you fix it and decide to keep it, put a cooler thermostat in it and purchase a tuner that will allow you to adjust the cooling fan start temperatures to lower settings. FWIW, here's the way I have both my Hemi's setup:

--190* thermostats
--Fan start temperatures: Low=197*; Medium=203*; High=207*. The highest I've ever seen mine since I began using this setup is 214* and that was at a road construction site where we sat for a full half hour in 104* ambient temperatures with the A/C on high. The hottest it got when sitting there was 208*. Once we started moving again, it shot up to 214* until the fans cooled it off to under 200*. (With the stock 203* thermostat, the fan start for high is up around 235-240 degrees) I will also say that the fans tend to run on low speed a fair amount more (especially in the summer months with the A/C on), but I figure if it blows the fan, a new one is far less expensive than a new engine....and a lot easier to fix.

You may want to isolate which cylinder is causing the issue and hopefully get an idea of what happened. The easiest way is to pull the spark plugs and look for damaged electrodes. If you don't find any, the next thing I'd do is borescope each cylinder and see if you can see anything that way. If nothing still, turn the engine over by had a few times and make sure nothing is obstructing it when turning. Then run a compression check and see what that yields.

Again, good luck and I hope others with first hand experience chime in on this one.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #5 of 39 Old 08-22-2018, 02:46 PM
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First off, sorry to hear about your problem. It's pretty serious. But if you are lucky, you might be able to replace just the one cylinder, piston and rebuild the head. That would be the least expensive way to fix it if it is in fact a valve seat drop. But it sounds like it is to me. But if you rebuild the one bad head, you might as well do the other one too. It will save you the headache of the same problem again.

I had the same problem. I had about 195K miles on mine when it happened. So I decided to rebuild the whole motor. It cost a little over $7000.00 to do the job. But it was a complete rebuild of the entire engine. It was pretty much, brand new everything except for the crankshaft. I'm not sure where you are located. But if you are in a location where labor rates are a little cheaper, it will be less. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and labor rates out here are pretty damn expensive.

If you really like your Jeep like I do, then go for either the repair or rebuild because either way, its gonna cost you some money. Just make sure you get a rebuild on both heads. Not just the one that is bad. If you don't really like your Jeep all that much, now would be the time to get a replacement vehicle.

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post #6 of 39 Old 08-22-2018, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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Very informative once again. Still working on tracking down the problem but it certainly seems like it might be the valve seats OR something that that the shop is thinking that it could be is the sensor/pump (forget what its called) that deals with oil pressure in each head? They said that its located under the intake manifold and that there is 2 of them, one for each head. Does this seems like a possibility? Also narrowed down that the sound is coming from the left head when its idling and that the fuel pressure is there and the timing is in sync as well as the cam and crank sensors.

I will most likely try to fix it instead of selling because I am quite far in the process of making this grand cherokee an srt8 replica. I asked around and shops are wanting 13 hrs of labor ~$2k with fluids for labor to replace the entire engine (heads, block...) does this seem accurate?

90grandoneer: Thanks for your input, very good point on the lower temp thermostat. Could you enlighten me on which tuner specifically you are using to control the cooling fan start temperatures?

optdoug: Thank you as well, when you rebuilt the engine how did the lower end look? The reason i ask is because i have heard that the lower end (pistons, walls...) last for a ridiculously long time and are pretty much bullet proof. So in other words, would just getting new heads without touching the lower end be worth it?
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post #7 of 39 Old 08-23-2018, 07:46 AM
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I wish the lifetime powertrain warranty was transferable given that these engines are pretty much a mileage/time bomb. When I saw your original post, with no replies. I cringed knowing the guys here with more direct experience on this issue would chime in.

What's the total cost? Assuming it's the valve seat, 2K seems low for an out-the-door cost. At that rate, I'd be worried that they get you started at 2k and run it up based on findings later..

But if they're running the engine during troubleshooting, maybe it's not a valve seat... as I understand it, the unseated valves cause more damage if you continue run the engine.

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post #8 of 39 Old 08-23-2018, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.7 WK View Post
OR something that that the shop is thinking that it could be is the sensor/pump (forget what its called) that deals with oil pressure in each head? They said that its located under the intake manifold and that there is 2 of them, one for each head. when its idling and that the fuel pressure is there and the timing is in sync as well as the cam and crank sensors.

I will most likely try to fix it instead of selling because I am quite far in the process of making this grand cherokee an srt8 replica. I asked around and shops are wanting 13 hrs of labor ~$2k with fluids for labor to replace the entire engine (heads, block...) does this seem accurate?
I think you need to quiz your mechanics a little more, as it seems they don't know Hemi's. There is no "sensor/pump that deals with oil pressure in each head." The only thing under the intake manifold on the Hemi are 4 (not 2) MDS Solenoids that control the oil flow to the MDS Valve Lifters on each bank of the engine. Also, as I said earlier, if you have a continuous knock coming internally from the engine, it is not a good idea to keep running before finding out what is causing it. All that is happening is more damage. I will say that if it will idle, at this point it may not be too bad. Keep running it and it most certainly will become more serious.

The labor cost for the engine R and R is probably pretty fair, depending on the area you live in. Did they give you price quotes on new/rebuilt/used engines, as well as fixing yours? I will say that a used engine is pretty much a crap shoot unless you remove the heads and replace all the valve seats. You may end up with the same problem again if this isn't done. Also, "piece mealing" or just fixing the affected cylinder on your existing engine would not be a good idea if it is indeed a dropped valve seat. Pull both heads and replace all 16 valve seats.

I have all the popular tuners for both my Hemi's (Superchips, Diablosport and HPTuner) but use the Superchips and HP Tuner on the Jeep. My Superchips Tuner is an earlier one that I recently had a problem with. It used to allow cooling fan start temperature adjustments, but after they "fixed" it, it no longer has this function and they said it never did....not so. I had to use the HP to do the job now. I do know that the Diablosport has this feature though. Whatever tuner you purchase, be sure it has this capability.

Also, IMO, it would be a good idea, if the engine has to come out of the vehicle, to replace ALL the items that are tough to get to and/or expensive to fix when the engine is installed. This, at a minimum are the things I'd address.......front differential bushings, O2 Sensors, exhaust manifold studs/bolts/nuts, motor mounts and crank sensor. If the starter is the original, I'd probably replace it too, as 190K on the engine equals a whole lot of starts.

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #9 of 39 Old 08-23-2018, 06:24 PM
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All I can say is listen to 90Grand. This man knows more about these engines than anyone I know . He guided me through my hour of need when I thought all hope was lost with my 5.7 hemi.

That being said. I'll reiterate what 90Grand said about piece mealing the engine. Do not, I repeat. Do not just fix the one head. And especially don't repair just the one bad valve seat. That will guarantee that you will be repeating this whole process again sometime down the road. At the very minimum you should replace all the valve seats on both heads. Along with that you will probably need a new piston, rings and maybe the cylinder.

The cost they quoted you is probably just for labor. No parts included. If you plan on keeping it for a while, you may as well replace or rebuild the entire engine. It costs more, but in my opinion it's worth it. Your engine will feel more powerful than before. I don't know if it's possible, but since you want to make it an SRT replica maybe you might want to drop a 6.1 in it. Then it will go into beast mode when you hit the gas pedal.

Lastly. My piston took a beating and so did the cylinder. I don't have a pic of the cylinder, but here is a pic of the piston and the block getting the rebuild. I keep the piston on my desk just to remind me what a pain in the add this was to my checking account when I paid the shop. The unfortunate part was that it happens last fall right when the Holliday season was starting .

Here is a link to my little escapade with a valve seat drop. 90Grand was a big help for me. Thanks again 90!
https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f67/...-drop-4192434/

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
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post #10 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 11:45 AM
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Optdoug, I think you need to check your link...it heads over to a thread about trans flushing.

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post #11 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 99sajeep View Post
Optdoug, I think you need to check your link...it heads over to a thread about trans flushing.
Thanks. I fixed it. That's what I get for using my phone to add a link.
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post #12 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 02:19 PM
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Lastly. My piston took a beating and so did the cylinder.
Doug, you forgot to add that your wallet took the biggest beating, LOL. Glad yours is still working good. Did you ever change the O2's and do the MDS light? How are you breaking the new engine in?

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #13 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 90grandoneer View Post
Doug, you forgot to add that your wallet took the biggest beating, LOL. Glad yours is still working good. Did you ever change the O2's and do the MDS light? How are you breaking the new engine in?
You are right. My wallet did take a beating. I've never been so broke over the holiday season before. Haha. And I have not installed the 02 sensors or the MDS led. I'm just wasting my money on gas right now getting about 12-12.5 miles per gallon. But I do have the 02 sensors. They are about the only thing that didn't get stolen when my Jeep was broken into a few weeks ago. I'm not sure why they didn't take them. They took everything else that was of value. I work a lot in San Francisco and I seem to have my windows smashed in from time to time. It's probably because I carry a lot of stuff in my Jeep for work. San Francisco is really starting to get on my nerves. The cops there do nothing about crime. This is why I can't have nice things. But one of these days I'll get the sensors installed. Oh, but I did install a new driveshaft last weekend. What a difference it made!

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post #14 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 04:44 PM
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Wow!! When it rains, it pours. That is really crappy. I retired (from a real job) and moved out of CA 27 years ago. It was getting bad then so I can imagine how it is now. Last time we were down there was 2003 when we buried my Mom.

How many miles have you put on the new engine so far? How are you breaking it in.....soft pedaling it, hard pedaling it, a combination of the two, or ??? IMO, it's best to do fast and slow and light/full throttle runs.....just keep varying engine load and RPM. When I did my Hemi LX, when it was new, that's how I did it. Also did the first oil change at about 2000 miles. It's worked great, good compression and no oil burning at all over the 6000 mile change intervals I use now. Also, after the first oil change, I've used nothing but Mobil 1 oil and filters. Also, if you haven't already, get a catch can on it.....one of the best investments you can do for the Hemi's. Also sounds like your O2's may be bad if your fuel economy is that bad. Is the 12-12.5 mpg in town or on the highway?

06 GCO, Dk Khaki, QDII, Flshing Hi 3rd Bk Lt, MDS "ON" Lt, Airtab Vortex Gens, Debadged, Fumoto Drain Valve, BT Catch Can, Chopped EGR Tube, SRT8 CAI, AFE Air Filter, Sonnax Trans Line Press Booster, SC Tuner W/Adv Trans Tune App, DS and HP tuners, Transgo Shift Kit, ARH Long Tube Hdrs w/3 in Magnaflow/Xlerator AP Exh Sys, Bilsteins, SRT Springs/Sways, Cust Eng Cvr, SRT8 frt/rear bumpers, FRI Sidewinder Cam w/6* advance/6.1 valvetrain, SLP 25% UD Pulley, BBK true 90mm T-Body, SOS Ign Coils w/.060 spark plug gaps, TEA ported/milled heads w/new valve seats, SRT Reps with 265/45&295/40X20's. Also 05 Hemi LX modded exactly like WK and Comp Cammed 06 300CSRT8.
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post #15 of 39 Old 08-24-2018, 09:19 PM
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Yup, Ca. Kind of sucks these days. But I've been here all my life and can't really see leaving.

I'm getting close to 25K miles since the rebuild and it's running great. I told myself I was going to break it in nice and easy for the first 1K miles. But I didn't even make it to 500 miles before I started flooring it. Haha. My first oil change was at a put 3500 miles. But it drank a good 3 quarts by that time. After that it stopped drinking oil and I've been changing it about every 6000 miles. Oh, and I did put a catch can on it about 10000 miles ago. But it only catches about 1/4 cup or so between changes . The o2 sensors are definitely shot, but they're not broke so I've just gotten too lazy to change them. I'll do it one of these,weekends soon.

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