Still overheats at idle!? - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
WJplanet
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Still overheats at idle!?

Runs 205 at operation and overheats to 230+at idle. Even after doing this:

Cooling system flushed.
New coolant 50% mix (green before flush and green after)
Bled air through bleed port hole.
New thermostat.
New water pump.
New towing fan clutch.
New radiator with 18lb cap.
New electric fan (always on with aux switch I installed) (blowing towards engine)
Belt is tight and spinning pulleys
No coolant leaks or collapsed hoses
Tests negative for exhaust gases in coolant.
No bubbles in coolant.
No mixing of coolant and oil.
Coolant, transmission, and engine oil are at proper levels.
Transmission oil is red not pink or brown.
Upper hose is hot (thermostat is open)
Chugging coolant movement from water pump seen through bleed hole.
(Water pump is pumping)

What am I missing? What do you think it is? I don't know what else to do? Thank you so much for reading I need your help!

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post #2 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 12:28 AM Thread Starter
WJplanet
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2000 4.7 Limited
Runs 205 at operation and overheats to 230+at idle. Even after doing this:

Cooling system flushed.
New coolant 50% mix (green before flush and green after)
Bled air through bleed port hole.
New thermostat.
New water pump.
New towing fan clutch.
New radiator with 18lb cap.
New electric fan (always on with aux switch I installed) (blowing towards engine)
Belt is tight and spinning pulleys
No coolant leaks or collapsed hoses
Tests negative for exhaust gases in coolant.
No bubbles in coolant.
No mixing of coolant and oil.
Coolant, transmission, and engine oil are at proper levels.
Transmission oil is red not pink or brown.
Upper hose is hot (thermostat is open)
Chugging coolant movement from water pump seen through bleed hole.
(Water pump is pumping)

It was doing this overheating and blew up my engine. I swapped in another used engine and I'm having the same problems! What the hell is going on here?

What am I missing? What do you think it is? I don't know what else to do? Thank you so much for reading I need your help!
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post #3 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 05:05 AM
snowbuggy
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Does it boil over? My Caddy runs at 230 all the time. I wouldn't think that would cause an engine to die.
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post #4 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 06:01 AM
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Thermostat is new, but does it works properly?

in the 4.7 the thermostat is on the fluid inlet from the radiator, in the lower hose so the upper hose could be hot with the thermostat closed.

If you run the cabin heating at full blast, does the engine temperature drop? If yes, the fluid is not flowing correctly in the radiator.
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post #5 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 07:32 AM
Delta0
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Maybe you overlook a faulty thermometer?
Have you used a thermometer that you know is accurate to measure the temperature?

What is your oil temperature?
Measure it at the filter.
With a thermometer that has been calibrated.
Calibrated against a pot of boiling water, if you live at high altitude, check the BP water in your area.

It was most likely that a too high oil temp that wrecked your engine.
After 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine.

Last edited by Delta0; 11-23-2021 at 07:44 AM.
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post #6 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 07:56 AM
Double E
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Delta...um what??? "After 100C most oils (made for water cooled engines) are too think to lube your GC engines bearings."
I get that 100C is 212F ...but too thick? Oil is doing its job with no problem from 240F to 250F and if anything it would be too thin the hotter it gets. A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. Then it begins to burn as well, and perhaps, then it might get too thick. Synthetic can go much higher than that without losing viscosity.

Here's my take and my questions...
A bad t-stat would make it overheat during operation as well.

You've done a good job with telling us what's been done. We need more info and want to drill into this list a bit more.
For example, if all of these things had been done over the course of a week, that's fine but I suspect that they were not and each item was tried after the previous item didn't solve it.

How many miles on this engine?
What vehicle did the used engine come out of, for year and miles?
Did this 4.7L start overheating on you one day and that's what made you start addressing it with popular remedies, or did it overheat from the start when it was installed?
Did the used engine ever have any head gasket work done on it and is it then possible that a water jacket passageway was blocked at re-assembly?


Cooling system flushed. How recent and with what?
New coolant 50% mix (green before flush and green after)
Bled air through bleed port hole.
New thermostat.
New water pump. What did the old pump look like...any corrosion?
New towing fan clutch.
New radiator with 18lb cap. What radiator was installed and by whom?
New electric fan (always on with aux switch I installed) (blowing towards engine)
Belt is tight and spinning pulleys
No coolant leaks or collapsed hoses
Tests negative for exhaust gases in coolant. How recent was this test done and by whom?
No bubbles in coolant.
No mixing of coolant and oil.
Coolant, transmission, and engine oil are at proper levels.
Transmission oil is red not pink or brown.
Upper hose is hot (thermostat is open)
Chugging coolant movement from water pump seen through bleed hole.

None of the answers you'll provide will singularly help us solve this for you but it will provide a more complete picture.
I'm also in the camp of wanting to verify the temp reading. Are you using the dash gauge or a connection to the OBD port to read it?
Either way, we might think about a new temp sending unit.

A leak-down or compression check would have been my path well before throwing so may parts at it. It is still an unknown to me.

Do you have any CEL codes on?
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post #7 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 11:20 AM
Delta0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double E View Post
Delta...um what??? "After 100C most oils (made for water cooled engines) are too think to lube your GC engines bearings."
I get that 100C is 212F ...but too thick? Oil is doing its job with no problem from 240F to 250F and if anything it would be too thin the hotter it gets. A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. Then it begins to burn as well, and perhaps, then it might get too thick. Synthetic can go much higher than that without losing viscosity.


[/COLOR]
Thanks, Double.

I'm afraid you misread what I said.
I actually wrote "After 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine."

Apart from that, I stand by what I say, which is that after 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine.
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post #8 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 11:34 AM
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I wonder if your Thermostat Weep hole has Anything to do with it ?
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post #9 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0 View Post
after 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine.
I have to disagree as well. Since many engines, the 4.7 includes, run happily at 200f, I would find it very hard to believe that most oils are useless 12 short degrees later. I would agree that it, in theory, it is more viscous at 200 v 212, but not to the point of being "too thin to lube your engine". While Chrysler engineers aren't chemists and engineers of fluid dynamics, they certainly know the specs of the fluids they themselves spec for the vehicles they designed. A margin of error that close to failure seems improbable.
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post #10 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 12:15 PM
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oil temps in my 7.3s will all run the 212-220 hard pulling say 10k. That is not that much it does play in the life of the oil. Why todays stuff all run synthetic. Trans temps i dont like over 200. All our trucks run huge plate coolers that keep that well under that. But i run like 8 gauges on those trucks too watch many temps. #1 is EGT temp and boost. pull to much that can go like Space X temps. mines set at 1200* alarm goes off. can happen towing up hill when rpms drop to much. temps go very high real fast and melt a piston. so down shift or switch tunes i run 7 on the fly tunes..

one of the 7.3s is at 265,000 miles. other is at 200,000 miles. 212 oil temps seem not be an issue.


but the question. like said seems the OP did about everything one would. wonder how good that rad is really. Might have a flow issue. I would have thought everyone one on earth had a IR gun by now. they are cheep and very accurate. maybe look for colder spots in the rad and be sure what the jeep is saying is right.
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post #11 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 222Doc View Post
Might have a flow issue.
I'm in this boat. If the pump is good and all the air is out, something has to be restricting flow. We should also keep in mind a new pump and new radiator does not mean GOOD pump and radiator. I once lost 3 cast fins on a new water pump in a 318 Duster after less than 500mi. Granted I think our fins are stamped, not cast, but it does demonstrate new can indeed be junk. Also, a hot top hose doesn't always prove good flow and a functioning thermostat. Trapped/restricted fluid in the block can heat the top hose too....
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1970 'Cuda, 340 4bbl (10.952et @ 123mph)
1972 Dart Swinger, Gen III 6.4l Hemi (11.223 @ 113mph)
1974 AMC Gremlin X, 440 6bbl (sold)
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post #12 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0 View Post
Thanks, Double.

I'm afraid you misread what I said.
I actually wrote "After 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine."

Apart from that, I stand by what I say, which is that after 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine.
It was a copy/paste by me. We see you edited your post. No worries, I get what you're trying to communicate though. Its still off by a bit. Engine oil is meant to live and protect in the 240-260F range all day and for millions of RPMs. If the oil in a WJ became no longer able to protect (or lube my engine) after it reached 212, there would be a lot of trashed engines out there.
Need some independent input? https://www.verus-engineering.com/bl...deeper-look-29 look up the author Eric Hazen if needed. He's not the inventor of physics nor the foremost authority on all things IC but his linkedIn resume stands up to scrutiny. There are other valid sources that will agree.
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post #13 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 02:23 PM
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Please will you explain to me where I've gone wrong when I say "after 100C / 212F many / most 5w-30 oils for GCs are too thin to lube your engine." gentlemen?

Comma is Mobil Oils performance branch.file here's a link to the technical Data Sheet for their 5w40 https://www.commaoil.com/productsgui...e4615d3352cd23

https://www.q8oils.com/energy/viscosity-index/

The picture below comes from q8's article titled Understanding the viscosity index of a lubricant.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Ferd Viscosity With Too Thin Line.pdf (234.9 KB, 4 views)
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post #14 of 34 Old 11-23-2021, 02:45 PM
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I have no idea what that attached chart is supposed to mean. Too thin for what? Whose oil is under test? You 2nd link is describing that "viscosity index of a lubricant is determined by measuring the kinematic viscosity at 40C and 100C", it says nothing of it being to thin to lubricate over 100C. The first link essentially says the same as the others, and that is viscosity is determined between 40C and 100C, it says nothing again of it being too thin over 100C...

I think you are confusing how a lab determines a viscosity rating for a lubricant vs what it's safe operating range actually is in the real world.

"A quality conventional motor oil will tolerate oil sump temperatures of up to 250 degrees, but starts breaking down over 275 degrees. The traditional approach is to try to hold oil temperatures between 230 and 260 degrees. Even on a short-duration, drag-only combo where oil is frequently changed, I would not want to routinely see under-200-degree oil temps."
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/en...l-temperature/

" Engine oil needs to reach *at least* 100 degrees C (212 degrees F) to burn off condensation (water) build-up within the engine *which is perfectly normal and happens in every single engine*. If oil does not reach this temperature, the oil is unable to do its job to the best of its abilities and increased engine wear will result."
https://www.verus-engineering.com/bl...deeper-look-29

"The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) assigns a viscosity number to oil based on its flow at 210 degrees F, which is roughly the standard operating temperature for most motors."
https://shopearps.com/2018/08/31/mot...des-explained/

"The average operating temperature of a passenger car/light truck engine is up to 235F (113C), and higher under heavy loads."
https://blog.amsoil.com/whats-the-be...for-high-heat/

"Mobil 1 advanced synthetic motor oil provides outstanding high-temperature performance and is proven to protect at engine temperatures up to 500 degrees Fahrenheit."
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...oil-protection

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1970 'Cuda, 340 4bbl (10.952et @ 123mph)
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1974 AMC Gremlin X, 440 6bbl (sold)
1975 Jeep Cherokee Sport 2-door (in progress)
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post #15 of 34 Old 11-24-2021, 04:06 AM
Delta0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double E View Post
It was a copy/paste by me. We see you edited your post. No worries, I get what you're trying to communicate though. Its still off by a bit. Engine oil is meant to live and protect in the 240-260F range all day and for millions of RPMs. If the oil in a WJ became no longer able to protect (or lube my engine) after it reached 212, there would be a lot of trashed engines out there.
Need some independent input? https://www.verus-engineering.com/bl...deeper-look-29 look up the author Eric Hazen if needed. He's not the inventor of physics nor the foremost authority on all things IC but his linkedIn resume stands up to scrutiny. There are other valid sources that will agree.
That's a very nasty get around Double.
The get around that suggests I changed thick to thin.

Last edited by Delta0; 11-24-2021 at 05:17 AM.
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