First oil change, a bit different (big filter, 1999 4.0) - Page 4 - JeepForum.com
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post #46 of 85 Old 06-14-2021, 12:18 AM
Delta0
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That sounds about right.

I still haven't seen the part where it says a better oil additive replaced the Zinc, just that new formulations are "better" for emissions.

I did see the part where they say forget about SM and SN if you go racing. My oil is SP, so the chance that I can find SL grade these days is very slim.
I thought Valvoline neatly sidestepped that discussion with a carefully PR biased sentence "THE CONTROVERSY EXISTS AS A RESULT OF MANY HANDS-ON CAR ENTHUSIASTS AND ENGINE EXPERTS BELIEF THAT LOWER LEVELS OF ZINC IN API SN AND SM MOTOR OILS CAN CAUSE EXCESSIVE WEAR IN OLDER STYLE PUSH-ROD AND FLAT-TAPPET ENGINES.
THEY HOLD THIS BELIEF DESPITE THE FACT THAT ALL NEW MOTOR OIL CLASSIFICATIONS ARE INTENDED TO BE BACKWARD COMPATIBLE.


As far as off-road and babying go, I'm not going to be rock crawling or mud bogging, just driving (slowly) in the desert where there are no roads and a few ruts that 2WD might make me nervous about. I will not be entering The Mint 400 but I might get an intake air pre-filter.
I'll be interested to learn how you get on with "Babying" your engine when you are out dicing with death amongst the dunes.


Last edited by Delta0; 06-14-2021 at 12:38 AM.
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post #47 of 85 Old 06-14-2021, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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You want to rely on intention, I would rather rely on the additive package.

Why didn't we see a bunch of "Brand X motor oil: Now with Additive Y" type of advertising?

My thought is "Additive Y" doesn't exist, they just removed the Zinc and tried to make up for it with other additives which were already commonly used.

I am very skeptical of advertising and that text you quote is advertising.

I would love to see "Additive Y" advertising because I could probably read papers about it with test data.

You can't really test intentions and how many times have you seen "backward compatibility" work right?

What you offer as evidence is what makes me doubt.

I wish I could retrofit a roller cam and lifters to my 4.0, that would remove my worry a lot more than an oil company telling me not to worry.
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post #48 of 85 Old 06-14-2021, 09:16 PM
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I run all my oil changes to 5K miles...And I dont need synthetic to do it. It just makes sense because the tire rotation interval is also 5K miles. Conventional oil can easily handle 5K miles these days.....been doing it for years, with no failures...


Bigger filter is always gonna filter longer....before its plugged....Its all about the surface area...

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post #49 of 85 Old 06-14-2021, 09:36 PM
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LOL. I would never have guessed that a discussion on oil filters would hit 4+ pages.
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post #50 of 85 Old 06-14-2021, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I was expecting people to say "wow, that big filter fit" and not much else.

Now I'm pretty convinced that 10w30 is too heavy for summer use, let alone winter.
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post #51 of 85 Old 06-15-2021, 02:05 AM
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Yeah, I was expecting people to say "wow, that big filter fit" and not much else.
If it was as simple as big can equals better filtes all the shysters would be on the game.

I check weight.
A Blue Print (Febi Bilstein) filter weighs 0,451 Kg
A K&N filter weighs 0.6 Kg

I bought the K&N because I can get crack it with a 1" A/F spanner.


Now I'm pretty convinced that 10w30 is too heavy for summer use, let alone winter.
I daresay Mopar know what they are on at Dust Devil.

Don't use 10W30 when the ambient is below 0F

Don't use 5W30 when the ambient is above 100F

Living in temperate Old England, I can use either in summer, and either in winter.
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post #52 of 85 Old 06-15-2021, 05:11 AM
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I not that easily convinced, I use 10W30 year round in my stuff....

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post #53 of 85 Old 06-15-2021, 05:32 AM
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I not that easily convinced, I use 10W30 year round in my stuff....
Excellent Bigrigr.
10W30 seems spot on for an all season oil in your location.

Last edited by Delta0; 06-15-2021 at 05:56 AM.
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post #54 of 85 Old 06-15-2021, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some rip-off filters with big cans and small elements but you probably have to look pretty hard.

The reason why I say that is most newer cars are so crowded in the engine compartment that only a little tiny filter will fit. When a filter company wants to sell a compatible filter, they have to fill it up.

After they have tooled up for that, it wouldn't make sense to spoil their reputation to save a couple cents on manufacturing by sticking a small element in a big can.

I just make sure I'm buying from a company that has a reputation and preferably a line of premium filters.
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post #55 of 85 Old 06-16-2021, 12:21 AM
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I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some rip-off filters with big cans and small elements but you probably have to look pretty hard.

The reason why I say that is most newer cars are so crowded in the engine compartment that only a little tiny filter will fit. When a filter company wants to sell a compatible filter, they have to fill it up.

After they have tooled up for that, it wouldn't make sense to spoil their reputation to save a couple cents on manufacturing by sticking a small element in a big can. I wish.

I just make sure I'm buying from a company that has a reputation and preferably a line of premium filters.
All you have to do is ask them for a spec sheet Dust Devil.

The spec sheet will tell you interesting things like surface area, pressure relief valve opening pressure, what the filter is made from, weight, etc.

One of the reasons for smaller filter is that long filters put more strain on the mounting, and more strain on the crimp between base and can.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fram...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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post #56 of 85 Old 06-18-2021, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
You want to rely on intention, I would rather rely on the additive package.

Why didn't we see a bunch of "Brand X motor oil: Now with Additive Y" type of advertising?

My thought is "Additive Y" doesn't exist, they just removed the Zinc and tried to make up for it with other additives which were already commonly used.

I am very skeptical of advertising and that text you quote is advertising.
.
The thing is, oils (especially 'synthetics') are soups of dozens of additives for for a variety of reasons. There is not a 1 for 1 correspondence (take this out, add that).

ZDDP dates back to the 40s when motor oils were really, really bad. It was cheap and simple, and over the years became far less important in the soup. It was primarily the fact that EPA pushed for reduction that provoked a suspicion that they are 'taking stuff away from us'. Back in the 60s, you were lucky to get 100K from an engine, now that's not even a worry... engine design has changed but the biggest factor is lubrication.

Oil chemistry is so completely different now, you can't really compare on an ingredient by ingredient basis.

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post #57 of 85 Old 06-18-2021, 08:19 AM
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As mentioned above as nausem, not all oil is the same nor are filters. Buy the BEST, this stuff is CHEAP when compared to engines. I’ve been using synthetic- you know the brand I can’t say here as it’s offensive to delicate ears- for 30 years, and I’ve changed at the oil manufacturer’s recommended intervals.

235k miles on Jeep
318k miles on ES300 ‘02
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I have stories I could share that backs up wild claims I never believed for sure till they happened to me personally.

Enough said.
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post #58 of 85 Old 06-18-2021, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jay-h View Post
The thing is, oils (especially 'synthetics') are soups of dozens of additives for for a variety of reasons. There is not a 1 for 1 correspondence (take this out, add that).

ZDDP dates back to the 40s when motor oils were really, really bad. It was cheap and simple, and over the years became far less important in the soup. It was primarily the fact that EPA pushed for reduction that provoked a suspicion that they are 'taking stuff away from us'. Back in the 60s, you were lucky to get 100K from an engine, now that's not even a worry... engine design has changed but the biggest factor is lubrication.

Oil chemistry is so completely different now, you can't really compare on an ingredient by ingredient basis.
Ah, rollerized valvetrains, tri-metallic bearings, low tension piston rings, multi-layer steel head gaskets, and fuel injection to prevent knocking and other problems caused by poor tune-ups, sure, it is just the oil that makes modern engines last...

The last paragraph was sarcasm if you didn't catch that.

I just did a 110 cold start (yes, it is that hot here), I still had 75 psi oil pressure which went down to about 60 after several minutes when the engine temperature got to 210. For all I know, 5w30 could be thick enough that my oil pump is bypassing on cold start, I can practically guarantee that 10w30 would bypass.

I am using high quality stuff. The oil is at the very least good. The filter is good compared to other filters and it is bigger compared to the OEM filter and direct replacements.

I just did it a little different which was the point of this thread. It is too soon to say if the filter is catching more contaminants or that the oil will improve the life of my engine but the oil pressure suggests it is not too light weight even in 110 weather (in my engine any way, some with especially loose clearances might see low cold start oil pressure but I wouldn't use 10w30 in them, they would probably have quite low oil pressure at operating temperature so a 10w40 or thicker oil might be the best for them).
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post #59 of 85 Old 06-18-2021, 06:56 PM
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Ah, rollerized valvetrains, tri-metallic bearings, low tension piston rings, multi-layer steel head gaskets, and fuel injection to prevent knocking and other problems caused by poor tune-ups, sure, it is just the oil that makes modern engines last...


.
there is truth on bot sides of that argument.

Even the old design engines do better. The Jeep 6 was in production for 40 years... one of the longest of any passenger car engines). It dates back to the '64 Rambler American. My first 258 was retired at 250K, though it was still running strong (The rear seal cracked and it would have meant major disassembly, so I sprung for a rebuilt rather than put the old engine back together). The rebuilt is at 130K and shows no signs of age. The GC 4.0 is pushing 260K with no signs of trouble. This would be astonishing in 1965

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post #60 of 85 Old 06-18-2021, 07:11 PM
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I've yet to change the kind of oil or filter I use in any car and had it make any noticeable change or difference whether it a noise, performance or mpg's. The topic is always entertaining anyways
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