First oil change, a bit different (big filter, 1999 4.0) - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
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post #31 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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Yes but I also hear the occasional story of a hotrod, muscle car or RV with a mild cam that just wipes a lobe out of the blue after running fine for years.

Those type of stories worry me a bit. The thing that gets my attention is when they say it was like a 212 or 216 hydraulic cam with only a little bit over 0.400" lift. I guess if it was a small base circle re-grind, that might explain a bit of fragility but it doesn't explain why they last a while before they lose a lobe.

I would rather have the Zinc for peace of mind.

I also baby it. It has over 100,000 miles and I would like to do at least 50-60,000 more. It's not fast, it's not a race car, I see no reason to beat on it when it is cold. I make it a point to not be in a hurry.

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post #32 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
Yes but I also hear the occasional story of a hotrod, muscle car or RV with a mild cam that just wipes a lobe out of the blue after running fine for years. The hardened surface of the cam wore out over those running fine years, and the lobe went pop.

Those type of stories worry me a bit. The thing that gets my attention is when they say it was like a 212 or 216 hydraulic cam with only a little bit over 0.400" lift. I guess if it was a small base circle re-grind, that might explain a bit of fragility but it doesn't explain why they last a while before they lose a lobe.

I would rather have the Zinc for peace of mind. Your choice.

I also baby it. It has over 100,000 miles and I would like to do at least 50-60,000 more. It's not fast, it's not a race car, I see no reason to beat on it when it is cold. I make it a point to not be in a hurry.
Good thinking
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post #33 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by UKXJ View Post
Is that right - you changed the oil every 2nd filter change? Personally, I've only just started replacing the filter @ 7,500, instead of 6,000 miles, but that's still at every 2nd oil change - & I don't regularly drive in dusty conditions.
How many miles a year do you drive UKXJ
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post #34 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
Looking at that chart and knowing the temperature here is rarely below 20C during the summer, I'm not seeing a big difference.

My engine probably spins over at least 2-3 times before it fires, the big ends aren't getting hammered before the oil starts flowing. Perhaps.

Think about a hot start, almost all of the oil will have dripped off before it starts because it was very thin before it shut off. True for both oils.

A cold start is similar because the oil dripped off before it cooled down. True, however, with the 10W30, you get a thicker crumple zone.

You're either going to have oil or not and when the two lines are practically on top of each other, the results in the engine should be very similar. It's the little things that make the difference.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing why Jeep would suggest 10w30 over 5w30 winter or summer. Yeah, it's tough to form a clear in one's mind.

They should take that graph, remove 20w50, re-scale it and add 0w20 because the difference between 15w40 and 10w30 is huge compared to 10w30 vs 5w30.
Et voila: -
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post #35 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 03:40 AM
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Et viola: -
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post #36 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, thats the section of the graph that my oil never sees. The temperatures over 20C (68F) where the 5w30 and 10w30 are practically the same is where my oil is on cold start.

My point about the graph is the high viscosity of the 20w50 requires a large vertical scale so if you get rid of it you could expand the vertical divisions to make the very small differences between 5w30 and 10w30 more pronounced. Adding 0w20 would show how even lighter weights perform. Is the difference between 0w20 and 5w30 going to be small like the difference between 5w30 and 10w30 or big like the difference between 10w30 and 15w40?
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post #37 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jay-h View Post
I use Mobil1 10-30 in both Jeep 6's. Lotta mileage on both. Reasonably cheap in Walmart.

While the zinc issue is viral, if you follow it down, it's almost always hotrods or vintage British engines. Hotrods have stiff springs, steep cam lobes and high revs, they put far more pressure on the lifter than the Jeep 6 ever does. It's just about unheard of in stock American engines (incidentally the AP certification test includes testing in flat tappet engines.)
The zinc issue is a "Conspiracy theory" invented by journos to sell mags.

They replaced zinc with a better wear reducer.

Cams lost their lobes while they were running "Zincipated" oil.
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post #38 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
Yeah, thats the section of the graph that my oil never sees. The temperatures over 20C (68F) where the 5w30 and 10w30 are practically the same is where my oil is on cold start.

My point about the graph is the high viscosity of the 20w50 requires a large vertical scale so if you get rid of it you could expand the vertical divisions to make the very small differences between 5w30 and 10w30 more pronounced. Adding 0w20 would show how even lighter weights perform. Is the difference between 0w20 and 5w30 going to be small like the difference between 5w30 and 10w30 or big like the difference between 10w30 and 15w40?
Lubrication, including start up is more about film strength than viscosity. Hence at both hot and cold extremes, a top grade synthetic will provide better protection than a lower grade oil.

Specs for viscosity are determined by engineers based on the engines working clearances including bearings and oil pump lobes. Also the amount of oil flow. If you have an unnecessarily thick oil, your oil pressure will be high, but your flow rate can be reduced. Since bearing cooling is based on oil flow, you may have increased wear due to heat.

It's a good idea to stick with factory recommended weights as much as possible.

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post #39 of 85 Old 06-11-2021, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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Delta0 is trying to convince me not to run 5w30, that's lighter than the recommendation, not heavier.

I wanted to run the recommended 10w30, I just couldn't find a good full synthetic in that weight locally.

Even with a lighter grade of oil I'm getting quite high oil pressure at cold start which tells me thicker 10w30 would either have higher pressure or some of the oil volume would get bypassed by the oil pump relief valve.

My oil pressure is back down in the 50-60 psi range at idle when it is warmed up which seems fine and normal to me.

That's my experience with 5w30 in hot weather so far, surprisingly high pressure on cold start. It's not alarmingly high, it just surprised me and makes me think a thicker oil might bypass, the engine could get less oil and for all the heavier weight, it might protect the engine less.

The 5w30 I put in is a quality synthetic and should have a good additive package because it is both a high mileage and extended life oil.

Beyond that, a lot of wear is caused by contaminants in the oil pumped to the wear surfaces. To fight that I got probably one of the biggest filters that can fit in the WJ chassis. It should be able to capture a lot of contaminants before it gets so plugged that the filter bypasses. I have a theory that old engines put more contaminants in the oil than a new engine (except during break-in) so hopefully my big filter will keep the oil clean until it is time for another change.
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post #40 of 85 Old 06-12-2021, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
Delta0 is trying to convince me not to run 5w30, Oh no he Isn't. I'm offering you no strings information, and discussing it with you. It's totally your choice. that's lighter than the recommendation, not heavier.

I wanted to run the recommended 10w30, I just couldn't find a good full synthetic in that weight locally. I get my oil mail order.

Even with a lighter grade of oil I'm getting quite high oil pressure at cold start which tells me thicker 10w30 would either have higher pressure or some of the oil volume would get bypassed by the oil pump relief valve.

My oil pressure is back down in the 50-60 psi range at idle when it is warmed up which seems fine and normal to me.

That's my experience with 5w30 in hot weather so far, surprisingly high pressure on cold start. It's not alarmingly high, it just surprised me and makes me think a thicker oil might bypass, Hey, come on Dust Devil, you've made the point that there's little difference in viscosity at your normal ambient temperature. the engine could get less oil and for all the heavier weight, it might protect the engine less.

The 5w30 I put in is a quality synthetic and should have a good additive package because it is both a high mileage and extended life oil.

Beyond that, a lot of wear is caused by contaminants in the oil pumped to the wear surfaces. To fight that I got probably one of the biggest filters that can fit in the WJ chassis. It should be able to capture a lot of contaminants before it gets so plugged that the filter bypasses. I have a theory that old engines put more contaminants in the oil than a new engine (except during break-in) so hopefully my big filter will keep the oil clean until it is time for another change.
Here for your information are the data sheets for Mobil 5W30 & 10W30.

https://www.mobil.co.uk/en-gb/produc...x-pdsdatasheet

http://www.chemcorp.co.uk/creo_files...il_1_10w30.pdf
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post #41 of 85 Old 06-12-2021, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
Yes but I also hear the occasional story of a hotrod, muscle car or RV with a mild cam that just wipes a lobe out of the blue after running fine for years.

Those type of stories worry me a bit. The thing that gets my attention is when they say it was like a 212 or 216 hydraulic cam with only a little bit over 0.400" lift. I guess if it was a small base circle re-grind, that might explain a bit of fragility but it doesn't explain why they last a while before they lose a lobe.

I would rather have the Zinc for peace of mind.

I also baby it. It has over 100,000 miles and I would like to do at least 50-60,000 more. It's not fast, it's not a race car, I see no reason to beat on it when it is cold. I make it a point to not be in a hurry.
My first Jeep 6 was at 250 K and still running strong when it lost a main seal. I decided to replace with a reman at that time, because it was going to need to be pulled and disassembled anyhow. The second engine is up around 130K and solid. The GC is about 260K and solid. I use Mobil 1 in all of them.

[incidently when I got my reman I asked Jasper about that, and they felt there was no need for any special zinc concerns]

I read an article by a Ford tribologist (there's a specialty) who claimed the zinc was good in its day, but modern oils have much better formulation.

the zinc issue has become a game of telephone with very little behind it other than the hotrod issues.

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post #42 of 85 Old 06-12-2021, 07:21 PM Thread Starter
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The last time I read up on Zinc was around fall 2013 when a new standard of oil (with less or no zinc) was being rolled out. I think Royal Purple had a web page or article discussing the difference and I believe it was done for fuel economy and emissions, not better lubrication. Their racing formulations did not meet the new standard because they didn't want to decrease the lubricity or film strength.

They did make oils that met the new standard but their best "street" oil met the previous standard, not the new one.

I believed it because I saw the used oil analysis of lots of different oils and the data pretty much matched up with what they said, even among other brands that had reformulated for the new standard.

I didn't look as far in-depth this time, I just chose Mobil One because my major take away from that data was that Mobil One wasn't usually the absolute best in the tests but it was always among the best.

I can't really tell how it is doing yet but I doubt anything would do much better unless the zinc content is an issue but as I said, I baby it so the cam lobes aren't stressed as much as they could be.
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post #43 of 85 Old 06-12-2021, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dust Devil View Post
The last time I read up on Zinc was around fall 2013 when a new standard of oil (with less or no zinc) was being rolled out. I think Royal Purple had a web page or article discussing the difference and I believe it was done for fuel economy and emissions, not better lubrication. Their racing formulations did not meet the new standard because they didn't want to decrease the lubricity or film strength.

Quote: -

WHAT IS THE CONTROVERSY SURROUNDING THE AMOUNT OF ZINC IN MOTOR OIL?
THE CONTROVERSY EXISTS AS A RESULT OF MANY HANDS-ON CAR ENTHUSIASTS AND ENGINE EXPERTS BELIEF THAT LOWER LEVELS OF ZINC IN API SN AND SM MOTOR OILS CAN CAUSE EXCESSIVE WEAR IN OLDER STYLE PUSH-ROD AND FLAT-TAPPET ENGINES. THEY HOLD THIS BELIEF DESPITE THE FACT THAT ALL NEW MOTOR OIL CLASSIFICATIONS ARE INTENDED TO BE BACKWARD COMPATIBLE.
WHAT SOLUTIONS DOES VALVOLINE OFFER TO THE ZINC ISSUE?
VALVOLINE OFFERS TWO SOLUTIONS TO THE ZINC ISSUE:
• VALVOLINE VR1 RACING OIL: CONTAINS 75% HIGHER ZINC THAN SN OR SM MOTOR OIL WITH A BALANCED ADDITIVE PACKAGE DESIGNED TO WORK IN BOTH RACING AND TRADITIONAL APPLICATIONS. VALVOLINE PROVIDES THIS PRODUCT IN BOTH MULTI AND MONO VISCOSITY GRADES: 20W50, STRAIGHT 50, 10W30, STRAIGHT 30, STRAIGHT 40 AND STRAIGHT 60.
• LONGER-LASTING ZINC/PHOSPHORUS: VALVOLINE USES AN ADVANCED ZINC/PHOSPHORUS ADDITIVE THAT KEEPS HIGHER LEVELS OF PHOSPHORUS IN THE MOTOR OIL WHERE IT PROTECTS THE ENGINE INSTEAD OF POISONING THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER.
WHICH OIL HAS MORE ZINC/ZDDP: VR1 OR NOT STREET LEGAL RACING OIL?
VALVOLINE VR1 RACING OIL CONTAINS .13 PERCENT ZINC AND .12 PERCENT PHOSPHORUS COMPARED TO THE VALVOLINE "NOT STREET LEGAL" RACING OIL, WHICH CONTAINS .14 PERCENT ZINC AND .13 PERCENT PHOSPHORUS.
WILL AN ADDITIVE BOOST THE ZINC LEVEL?
KEEP IN MIND THAT ZINC ADDITIVES ARE CORROSIVE ABOVE CERTAIN LEVELS AND CAN HARM YOUR ENGINE. VALVOLINE DOESN’T RECOMMEND USING THIRD-PARTY ADDITIVES TO BOOST THE ZINC LEVEL. IF HIGHER ZINC LEVELS ARE REQUIRED FOR YOUR ENGINE, WE RECOMMEND USING VALVOLINE VR-1, AND ALWAYS REMEMBER TO CONSULT YOUR VEHICLE’S OWNER’S MANUAL.
IS VR1 CONVENTIONAL OIL SYNTHETIC OR A BLEND?
VALVOLINE VR1 RACING OIL IS CONVENTIONAL, NON-SYNTHETIC RACING OIL.
MOTOR OIL & OTHER PRODUCT FAQ

GENERAL MOTOR OIL FAQ

PERFORMANCE FAQ

OIL TYPES, WEIGHTS & VISCOSITY FAQ

RECYCLED MOTOR OIL FAQ

RACING OIL FAQ

SPECIALTY OIL FAQ

SYSTEM FLUIDS OIL FAQ

ADDITIONAL MOTOR OIL RESOURCES
OTHER RELATED FAQ

End of quote


They did make oils that met the new standard but their best "street" oil met the previous standard, not the new one.

I believed it because I saw the used oil analysis of lots of different oils and the data pretty much matched up with what they said, even among other brands that had reformulated for the new standard.

I didn't look as far in-depth this time, I just chose Mobil One because my major take away from that data was that Mobil One wasn't usually the absolute best in the tests but it was always among the best.

I can't really tell how it is doing yet but I doubt anything would do much better unless the zinc content is an issue but as I said, I baby it "Baby It" and "Off-Road" should not be used in the same sentence without a negative. so the cam lobes aren't stressed as much as they could be.
See above
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post #44 of 85 Old 06-12-2021, 11:54 PM
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Damage
Catalyst poisoning occurs when the catalytic converter is exposed to exhaust containing substances that coat the working surfaces, encapsulating the catalyst so that it cannot contact and treat the exhaust. The most-notable contaminant is lead, so vehicles equipped with catalytic converters can be run only on unleaded fuels. Other common catalyst poisons include fuel sulfur, manganese (originating primarily from the gasoline additive MMT), and silicone, which can enter the exhaust stream if the engine has a leak that allows coolant into the combustion chamber.

Phosphorus is another catalyst contaminant.
Although phosphorus is no longer used in gasoline, it (and zinc, another low-level catalyst contaminant) was until recently widely used in engine oil antiwear additives such as zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP).

Beginning in 2006, a rapid phaseout of ZDDP in engine oils began.
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post #45 of 85 Old 06-13-2021, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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That sounds about right.

I still haven't seen the part where it says a better oil additive replaced the Zinc, just that new formulations are "better" for emissions.

I did see the part where they say forget about SM and SN if you go racing. My oil is SP, so the chance that I can find SL grade these days is very slim.

As far as off-road and babying go, I'm not going to be rock crawling or mud bogging, just driving (slowly) in the desert where there are no roads and a few ruts that 2WD might make me nervous about. I will not be entering The Mint 400 but I might get an intake air pre-filter.
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