First oil change, a bit different (big filter, 1999 4.0) - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 85 Old 06-04-2021, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
Dust Devil
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Watching that video, I like the ultra for the metal end caps but I would never leave on an oil filter through 3-4 oil changes to get to 15,000 so I would probably go with the Tough Guard for the silicone ADB valve.

But I probably would be shopping other brands too.

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post #17 of 85 Old 06-05-2021, 01:27 AM
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I'm not 100% sold on viscosity index, films do weird things that bulk fluid specs don't necessarily tell you.
From my end of the microscope, Viscosity Index tells me how good an oil is at being a multigrade

Just getting to the 5w30 vs. 10w30, as I'm sure you know, the 30 is the effective weight W stands for winter, "Weight" is a salesman's incorrectly used word, it's meaningless in this context.at operating temperature and the 5/10 is when cold. 5/10 is at 40C (104F) which is not cold. So if all else is equal, at operating temperature, it should perform exactly the same. Cold start is where there is a difference but I'm not the type of guy (at this point in life) who jumps in a Grand Cherokee, fires it up and immediately romps on the gas. It's more like I sit down, check that the shifter is in park, depress the brake, start it up, check the oil pressure gauge, release the parking brake, look behind me, shift to drive, turn on my left turn signal, look behind me again and if clear, gently pull out in to the street. That's pretty slow.

I am trying not to do anything that will wear the car excessively and I'm not in a hurry.

After the engine has heated up to 140-150 Alert, Celsius and Fahrenheit confusion here. your 150 is Fahrenheit 150F is 65C. , I doubt the oil weight makes any difference and I get there probably less than a minute and a half after engine start. There is a difference between water temp sensor temperature and oil temperature.

If the oil film can handle 5-6000 rpm, a slightly lighter weight shouldn't have any problem when it's only running around 2,000 rpm max The bearing kinda "Surfboards" on the oil. As, when, and if the oil is too "Thin" the bearings stops surfing, and you get a metal to metal disaster. The fact that 5w30 is the spec for cold climates tells me I'm well within the ballpark despite being in a desert. In my book, a wise man would swap to 10W30 before the air temperature in your desert rises above 104F (40C). The part about oil molecule chain length consistency just tells me it should be somewhat better than conventional 5w30, maybe as good as conventional 10w30 at cold start (I'm talking about film strength at the bearings, not viscosity film strength and viscosity are about the same.) but thats hard to say without data. I only buy oil from companies that publish data. My point is, it should be close enough and the way I drive should help. I can't comment until I know more about your climate.
The bottom line is; Mopar reckons 5W30 is not good enough when the temperature rises above 104F

Last edited by Delta0; 06-05-2021 at 01:39 AM.
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post #18 of 85 Old 06-05-2021, 12:00 PM Thread Starter
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No confusion, I know the difference between Fahrenheit and Celcius.

What is confusing is why would oil companies spec oil weight at 40 C?

Outside of a desert, every engine will be colder than that on cold start and the reason for multi-weight oil is to make it easier to pump at very cold start, more like -40 (C or F, take your choice).

I'm going to have to read my handbook but I read that 5w30 was recommended for cold climates somewhere and being off by one grade doesn't bother me as much as a 10w40 would.

At the end of the day, it is quality oil, it is in the car, it is not going to cause any problems and it's staying.
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post #19 of 85 Old 06-06-2021, 03:12 AM
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No confusion, I know the difference between Fahrenheit and Celcius.

What is confusing is why would oil companies spec oil weight at 40 C?

Outside of a desert, every engine will be colder than that on cold start and the reason for multi-weight oil is to make it easier to pump at very cold start, more like -40 (C or F, take your choice).

I'm going to have to read my handbook but I read that 5w30 was recommended for cold climates somewhere and being off by one grade doesn't bother me as much as a 10w40 would.

At the end of the day, it is quality oil, it is in the car, it is not going to cause any problems and it's staying.
The oil you use is entirely up to you Dust Devil.
I'm just helping you help to make an informed decision.

The handbook recommends 10W30 for your car when the weather's over 104F.
10W30 is slightly thicker during hot weather cold start-ups than 5W30.
Most wear happens during start up.

I think Jeep recommend 10W30 for hot climates in order to protect your engine during start-up.

I think oil companies spec oil viscosity at 104F because they reckon 40C is the low end of the temperature range for engine oil during normal driving.

If you study the graph below, 104 to 212F is the part of the graph where the oil behaves itself as described on the label.
The graph is for 10W40 oil.
I could find one for 10W30 in the time available to me.
Attached Thumbnails
Viscosoty Graph Ferd.jpg  

Last edited by Delta0; 06-06-2021 at 03:28 AM.
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post #20 of 85 Old 06-08-2021, 02:43 PM
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Walmart sell a synthetic 10W-30 made by Mobil
I could not find the VI (viscosity index) on Mobil's Data Sheet though.
Not nice.

However, Google eventually found me the viscosity index.
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 147

A bit short of Comma's 166

The VI for Walmart's Supertech 5W-30 oil is 167.
Marginally better than Comma's 05W-30.

I looked in another GC handbook, it told me that 0W-30 is the "Preferred oil" where temps are below 40C.

Supertech 5W-30's viscosity at 100C is 11.1, which puts a bit outside Bob's best oil.

Not much between the two of them.
Mobil told me that the viscosity index for their 10W30 is 147.
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post #21 of 85 Old 06-08-2021, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I'm getting 75 psi oil pressure on cold start and it drops to around 55-60 after it warms up. To me that says it is thicker cold.

If my oil was thicker than that, would my oil pump bypass? Would I get less oil volume?

I know pistons tighten up in the bores when they heat up, I don't know what bearing clearances do because a cast iron block and a cast iron or cast steel crank should expand at a similar rate. I'm assuming not much so I really don't see what heavier weight at startup would do especially since the forces on the mains don't get high until you put a load on an engine or rev it up.

So rings and lifters are what I have to worry about but the pistons are loose when cold and tappet wear happens at high load which doesn't happen without high rpm. I still don't see an issue.
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post #22 of 85 Old 06-08-2021, 07:28 PM
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I drove a 99 Grand Cherokee 4.0 over 100,000 miles using 05/30 oil before I realized I should be using 10/30. I change filter every 7500 and oil and filter every 15,000. Oil always looked clean. Use Napa brand oil(made by valvoline) Mobil one is way over rated for the money. Gets over a 100 in summers where I am at in North Texas and I drive 1/2 mile each way on gravel every trip from home so have some dusty conditions. Never had a problem, put over 160,000 on it and people that bought it drove it another two years before it got totaled.
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post #23 of 85 Old 06-09-2021, 05:54 AM
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Well, I'm getting 75 psi oil pressure on cold start and it drops to around 55-60 after it warms up. To me that says it is thicker cold. Yup, even the best multigrade oil is thicker when it's cold.

If my oil was thicker than that, would my oil pump bypass? I expect so. Would I get less oil volume? If you bypass is open you will get less volume.

I know pistons tighten up in the bores when they heat up, I don't know what bearing clearances do because a cast iron block and a cast iron or cast steel crank should expand at a similar rate. I'm assuming not much so I really don't see what heavier weight at startup would do especially since the forces on the mains don't get high until you put a load on an engine or rev it up.

So rings and lifters are what I have to worry about but the pistons are loose when cold and tappet wear happens at high load which doesn't happen without high rpm. I still don't see an issue.
Would you like me to shed some light on your implied questions Dust Devil?
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post #24 of 85 Old 06-09-2021, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by skyking90 View Post
I drove a 99 Grand Cherokee 4.0 over 100,000 miles using 05/30 oil before I realized I should be using 10/30. I change filter every 7500 and oil and filter every 15,000. Oil always looked clean. Use Napa brand oil(made by valvoline) Mobil one is way over rated for the money. Gets over a 100 in summers where I am at in North Texas and I drive 1/2 mile each way on gravel every trip from home so have some dusty conditions. Never had a problem, put over 160,000 on it and people that bought it drove it another two years before it got totaled.
Thanks skyking.
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post #25 of 85 Old 06-09-2021, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by skyking90 View Post
I drove a 99 Grand Cherokee 4.0 over 100,000 miles using 05/30 oil before I realized I should be using 10/30. I change filter every 7500 and oil and filter every 15,000. Oil always looked clean. Use Napa brand oil(made by valvoline) Mobil one is way over rated for the money. Gets over a 100 in summers where I am at in North Texas and I drive 1/2 mile each way on gravel every trip from home so have some dusty conditions. Never had a problem, put over 160,000 on it and people that bought it drove it another two years before it got totaled.
Is that right - you changed the oil every 2nd filter change? Personally, I've only just started replacing the filter @ 7,500, instead of 6,000 miles, but that's still at every 2nd oil change - & I don't regularly drive in dusty conditions.
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post #26 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Would you like me to shed some light on your implied questions Dust Devil?
Don't let me stop you.
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post #27 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 11:41 AM
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Yes oil is changed every 2nd filter change. Using synthetic. Been using that practice on all my vehicles for over 20 years and put over 250k on them. Learned that from my brother in law who if you called him a major gear head would be putting it mild.
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post #28 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 12:15 PM
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Well, I'm getting 75 psi oil pressure on cold start and it drops to around 55-60 after it warms up. To me that says it is thicker cold Agreed.

If my oil was thicker than that, would my oil pump bypass? Would I get less oil volume?

I know pistons tighten up How about Fit better? in the bores when they heat up, I don't know what bearing clearances do because a cast iron block and a cast iron or cast steel crank should expand at a similar rate Agreed. I'm assuming not much so I really don't see what heavier weight at startup would do especially since the forces on the mains don't get high Lets look at the forces on the big ends rather than the mains.
The first cylinder to fire fires the con rod at a stationary main bearing.
All that stands between that con rod bearing and the c/shaft is a thin layer of oil.
In my book, it comes down to, in summer, do you prefer summer "Weight" oil between your conrod bearing and your c/shaft or do you prefer winter "weight" oil?
until you put a load on an engine or rev it up.

So rings and lifters are what I have to worry about but the pistons are loose In summer, do you prefer winter "Weight" oil between your piston and cylinder wall or summer "Weight" oil? when cold and tappet wear happens at high load which doesn't happen without high rpm Agreed. I still don't see an issue. See below.
My money says the manufacturer knows best.
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post #29 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Looking at that chart and knowing the temperature here is rarely below 20C during the summer, I'm not seeing a big difference.

My engine probably spins over at least 2-3 times before it fires, the big ends aren't getting hammered before the oil starts flowing.

Think about a hot start, almost all of the oil will have dripped off before it starts because it was very thin before it shut off.

A cold start is similar because the oil dripped off before it cooled down.

You're either going to have oil or not and when the two lines are practically on top of each other, the results in the engine should be very similar.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing why Jeep would suggest 10w30 over 5w30 winter or summer.

They should take that graph, remove 20w50, re-scale it and add 0w20 because the difference between 15w40 and 10w30 is huge compared to 10w30 vs 5w30.
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post #30 of 85 Old 06-10-2021, 07:32 PM
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I would have liked to find a full synthetic high mileage oil in 10w30 but could not in the stores I shopped (2x Walmart, Advanced Auto, O'Reilly, 2x Auto Zone and a NAPA).

I have been told that oil weight is essentially a measurement of the average oil molecule chain length and synthetics have a more consistent chain length which means you actually get similar protection even if the weight is a bit lower. So cold start will be fine and at temperature, it should behave exactly the same.

The big filter gives me more filter area so it should last quite a bit longer, there is at least 10% more oil, so 10% more detergent package and the high mileage/extended life blends have a better package to begin with. As long as it's not burning oil, I think that interval is ok because I mostly drive pretty slow or cruise on the freeway. I'm not off-roading or hauling yet, when I do, I'll probably change more frequently.

Zinc is the one thing I worry about but driving it slow, I'm not too worried about wiping a cam lobe. Does a 4.0 have roller followers?

One other thing I'm going to try to do is keep the engine under 210 as much as possible. After I get it running right (not dying randomly), a cooling refurb is at the top of my list (it gets hot when idling with the AC on).
..
I use Mobil1 10-30 in both Jeep 6's. Lotta mileage on both. Reasonably cheap in Walmart.

While the zinc issue is viral, if you follow it down, it's almost always hotrods or vintage British engines. Hotrods have stiff springs, steep cam lobes and high revs, they put far more pressure on the lifter than the Jeep 6 ever does. It's just about unheard of in stock American engines (incidentally the AP certification test includes testing in flat tappet engines.)

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