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-   -   First oil change, a bit different (big filter, 1999 4.0) (https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f310/first-oil-change-bit-different-big-filter-1999-4-0-a-4434443/)

Dust Devil 06-03-2021 12:03 AM

First oil change, a bit different (big filter, 1999 4.0)
 
So I have a new old Jeep and I'm trying to get it serviced and reliable.

An oil change was near the top of my list and I finally did it today. I also changed the air filter and wiper blades.

Due to cost and availability I settled on Mobile 1 5w30 high-mileage extended life oil.

For my filter, I wanted to go big so I got a NAPA Gold 1773 filter. I heard they were made by Wix but the box said Hummel Mann.

After the usual spills, about 6.5 quarts filled it up, the big oil filter has at least 1/2" of clearance to the frame, my oil drain plug used a 5/8" wrench, not 16mm and the car is tall enough, no jack required.

I still have to figure out how to reset my service interval in my overhead console but I'll feel comfortable setting it to 6,000 with that oil and filter.

Delta0 06-03-2021 03:48 AM

The handbook for a 2003 GC says to change every 3 months, or every 3000 miles, whichever comes first Dust Devil.

It also recommends you to use 10w-30 where temperature are above -18C / 0F

JoMc67 06-03-2021 05:17 AM

I have a 99' WJ 4.0 @ 125K, and use Synthetic Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage 10w30, added Resolin zinc. I generally change Oil & Filter (Mopar P4452890) every 5K (which is normally once year)...However, in later years it's only driven 1,200-1,500 a year, and so every 3 years.

WJ60 06-03-2021 08:17 AM


Dust Devil 06-03-2021 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delta0 (Post 41284891)
The handbook for a 2003 GC says to change every 3 months, or every 3000 miles, whichever comes first Dust Devil.

It also recommends you to use 10w-30 where temperature are above -18C / 0F

I would have liked to find a full synthetic high mileage oil in 10w30 but could not in the stores I shopped (2x Walmart, Advanced Auto, O'Reilly, 2x Auto Zone and a NAPA).

I have been told that oil weight is essentially a measurement of the average oil molecule chain length and synthetics have a more consistent chain length which means you actually get similar protection even if the weight is a bit lower. So cold start will be fine and at temperature, it should behave exactly the same.

The big filter gives me more filter area so it should last quite a bit longer, there is at least 10% more oil, so 10% more detergent package and the high mileage/extended life blends have a better package to begin with. As long as it's not burning oil, I think that interval is ok because I mostly drive pretty slow or cruise on the freeway. I'm not off-roading or hauling yet, when I do, I'll probably change more frequently.

Zinc is the one thing I worry about but driving it slow, I'm not too worried about wiping a cam lobe. Does a 4.0 have roller followers?

One other thing I'm going to try to do is keep the engine under 210 as much as possible. After I get it running right (not dying randomly), a cooling refurb is at the top of my list (it gets hot when idling with the AC on).

It sounds like it has a laundry list of issues but it actually runs strong and very smooth.

The previous owners probably didn't notice the high temps because it was in a cooler area and not driven very frequently. The random dying problem was probably part of why it wasn't driven frequently.

Delta0 06-03-2021 11:08 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I contacted the oil company I use Dust Devil.
They told me the most recent guff from Mopar states: -

"Use: Normal
Change 12000 km
Change 6 months


OEM recommendation
Above -15 API: SJ-EC SAE 10W-30
year-round API: SJ-EC SAE 5W-30"

Oil manufacturers add a better wear reducer than zinc these days.

The idea that a bigger filter gives more filter area may not hold water I'm afraid.


K&N's GC filter comes in a box that measures about 4.5" by 4" by 4" (114 x 98 x98mm)
It's one of the best filters money can buy.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173448340...YAAOxyTjNSoKHW

I've got eat my words on K&N filters.

Once upon a time, K&N openly advertised their filters removed particles down to 10 microns,

All that seems to have gone down the pan.

I asked K&N "What is the pore / hole size in the filter medium in a PS-2004 filter please?"

K&N replied
"Unfortunately we would not have the measurements
of those holes."

Thank you

K&N Customer Service"

Yeah, pore size is important.

Use a bog standard economy filter - get 150K mile from your engine.

Use a 10 micron filter - get 400K miles from your engine,

X-Hibition 06-03-2021 11:18 AM

The idea that a bigger filter gives more filter area may not hold water I'm afraid.

How can that be? As the taller filter has more filtering media it will hold more garbage in suspension than a shorter filter is physically capable of doing.

Dust Devil 06-03-2021 03:13 PM

Not all filter materials are created equally and not all filters fill up the can with pleats but generally speaking a bigger filter is going to have more material and they can use a more restrictive material that catches smaller particles.

If you're talking about a filter with a slightly bigger can, the difference might not be much but when the can is twice as big, chances are very good that it is either going to have less restriction or catch smaller particles and its pretty much 100% that it will catch more particles before the filter creates too much restriction and bypasses.

There are also pressure relief valve ratings and anti-drain-back valves to worry about but they are either appropriate or not.

Any argument against that is basically saying the factory oil filter is so oversized that increasing it makes no difference.

The thing is, the cleaner your engine oil, the less it is going to wear and the less particles will get in to the oil, which leads to cleaner oil and on and on and on...

If you are right, my big filter makes no difference. If I am right, my filter is going to catch more particles, especially if I extend the oil change interval and it is going to supply clean oil to the engine longer before it plugs up and bypasses.

It's an insurance policy and my choice is more protection with less downside.

I could have gone for the cheapest filter that interchanges the OEM part and generic brand non-synthetic 10w30 but I want my 4.0 to last another 50,000+ miles. That's still under 200,000 total which seems pretty common but I want it to finish strong.

underscore 06-03-2021 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-Hibition (Post 41285221)
The idea that a bigger filter gives more filter area may not hold water I'm afraid.

How can that be? As the taller filter has more filtering media it will hold more garbage in suspension than a shorter filter is physically capable of doing.


Doesn't that depend on how the media is spaced out? You could use the same amount, or less, in a larger filter and just space it out more.

Dust Devil 06-03-2021 06:36 PM

If you look at the construction of almost all oil filters, the filter material is a pleated strip that is glued in to a pleated tube with what I'll call "end caps" on either side to force the oil path through the filter material (or a bypass valve if it's too clogged). The longer the can of the oil filter, the wider the filter material usually and generally, the difference in pleating from a poor filter to the best isn't a whole lot. Generally wider filters usually have more pleats or deeper pleats which is the difference you'll see between a little Honda oil filter and a big wide filter for a diesel truck oil filter.

The filter I got is a NAPA Gold which is their premium line and despite the Hummel-Mann labeling, supposedly equivalent to the Wix 51773 which is also a premium filter.

Some people go as far as cutting open used oil filters to verify their quality. You can find a lot of this on "Bob is the oil guy" along with used oil analysis and discussions of oil additive packages.

There are some poor examples of filters with undersized elements but usually not in the premium line of the bigger companies (and Hummel-Mann is big with European car filters).

Dust Devil 06-03-2021 06:45 PM

Oh, on the topic of zinc, I believe current spec oil additive packages have less (maybe no) zinc for reasons of emissions and fuel economy, not because something better came along.

The last time I looked in to it, the oils with the best wear protection were not made to the latest spec, they were the previous spec and had higher levels of zinc...

Another thing I recall is Mobile 1 usually wasn't the best but they were consistently very close to the best which is why I picked it out of the choices I had.

Delta0 06-04-2021 01:03 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dust Devil (Post 41285163)
I would have liked to find a full synthetic high mileage oil in 10w30 but could not in the stores I shopped (2x Walmart, Advanced Auto, O'Reilly, 2x Auto Zone and a NAPA).

I have been told that oil weight is essentially a measurement of the average oil molecule chain length and synthetics have a more consistent chain length which means you actually get similar protection even if the weight is a bit lower. So cold start will be fine and at temperature, it should behave exactly the same.

The big filter gives me more filter area so it should last quite a bit longer, there is at least 10% more oil, so 10% more detergent package and the high mileage/extended life blends have a better package to begin with. As long as it's not burning oil, I think that interval is ok because I mostly drive pretty slow or cruise on the freeway. I'm not off-roading or hauling yet, when I do, I'll probably change more frequently.

Zinc is the one thing I worry about but driving it slow, I'm not too worried about wiping a cam lobe. Does a 4.0 have roller followers?

One other thing I'm going to try to do is keep the engine under 210 as much as possible. After I get it running right (not dying randomly), a cooling refurb is at the top of my list (it gets hot when idling with the AC on).

It sounds like it has a laundry list of issues but it actually runs strong and very smooth.

The previous owners probably didn't notice the high temps because it was in a cooler area and not driven very frequently. The random dying problem was probably part of why it wasn't driven frequently.

I would have liked to find a full synthetic high mileage oil in 10w30 but could not

The best, in fact the only, way I know to sort out better oils is to compare their viscosity indexes Dust Devil.

The higher the VI, the better the oil.
You need to find the Data Sheet for the oil.

I find datasheets via Google.
I buy my oil via eBay.

Picture attached.

I have been told that oil weight is essentially a measurement of the average oil molecule chain length and synthetics have a more consistent chain length which means you actually get similar protection even if the weight is a bit lower. So cold start will be fine and at temperature, it should behave exactly the same.


I have a different point of view here.
Oil weight / viscosity tells me how sloshy it is in the bottle.

I'm distinctly worried by the idea that "You get the similar protection even if the weight is a bit lower."

The viscosity of the oil in the Data Sheet is 9.9 at 100C.

Bob of the original "Bob is the Oil Guy" reckons around 10cSt good..

Bob also reckoned that good dinosaur oil is better in a low miles per year gently used car.

Nowadays, there are 2 Bob is the Oil Guys out there.
The original, and a forum where anyone can bash out their 2 penny worth.

Here's some original "Bob is the Oil Guy guff.
I don't recommend it as bed-time reading.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/

Delta0 06-04-2021 01:40 AM

Walmart sell a synthetic 10W-30 made by Mobil
I could not find the VI (viscosity index) on Mobil's Data Sheet though.
Not nice.

However, Google eventually found me the viscosity index.
Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 147

A bit short of Comma's 166 :(

The VI for Walmart's Supertech 5W-30 oil is 167.
Marginally better than Comma's 05W-30.

I looked in another GC handbook, it told me that 0W-30 is the "Preferred oil" where temps are below 40C.

Supertech 5W-30's viscosity at 100C is 11.1, which puts a bit outside Bob's best oil.

Not much between the two of them.

Dust Devil 06-04-2021 11:35 AM

I'm not 100% sold on viscosity index, films do weird things that bulk fluid specs don't necessarily tell you.

Just getting to the 5w30 vs. 10w30, as I'm sure you know, the 30 is the effective weight at operating temperature and the 5/10 is when cold. So if all else is equal, at operating temperature, it should perform exactly the same. Cold start is where there is a difference but I'm not the type of guy (at this point in life) who jumps in a Grand Cherokee, fires it up and immediately romps on the gas. It's more like I sit down, check that the shifter is in park, depress the brake, start it up, check the oil pressure gauge, release the parking brake, look behind me, shift to drive, turn on my left turn signal, look behind me again and if clear, gently pull out in to the street. That's pretty slow.

I am trying not to do anything that will wear the car excessively and I'm not in a hurry.

After the engine has heated up to 140-150, I doubt the oil weight makes any difference and I get there probably less than a minute and a half after engine start.

If the oil film can handle 5-6000 rpm, a slightly lighter weight shouldn't have any problem when it's only running around 2,000 rpm max. The fact that 5w30 is the spec for cold climates tells me I'm well within the ballpark despite being in a desert. The part about oil molecule chain length consistency just tells me it should be somewhat better than conventional 5w30, maybe as good as conventional 10w30 at cold start (I'm talking about film strength at the bearings, not viscosity) but thats hard to say without data. My point is, it should be close enough and the way I drive should help.

Delta0 06-04-2021 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by underscore (Post 41285455)
Doesn't that depend on how the media is spaced out? You could use the same amount, or less, in a larger filter and just space it out more.

Absolutely correct underscore, "You could use the same amount, or less, in a larger filter."

The full answer is even more complicated.
As Dust Devil pointed out, "Not all filter materials are created equally."

Different filters have
Different flow rates.
Different size holes in them.
Different surface areas.

Here's a guy comparing some Fram filters.



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