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Who here has come from a recent 4Runner?

10K views 129 replies 24 participants last post by  ceb1 
#1 ·
Why did you switch and what were your experiences?

Ride comfort on road?

Off road ability?

Reliability?

Features?

What do you miss?

What don't you miss?

Would you/will you switch back?

TIA
 
#2 ·
So let me revise the question.


For those who have owner their car from new:


How many miles before you had a significant failure? I define a "significant failure" as something that either stops you dead in your tracks or requires an urgent trip to the dealer. Flat tires or running out of gas doesn't count. Dead battery only counts if it was self inflicted (left light on or the like).


Please mention what mods you had that may have (even peripherally) affected the failure.
 
#11 ·
So let me revise the question.

For those who have owner their car from new:

How many miles before you had a significant failure? I define a "significant failure" as something that either stops you dead in your tracks or requires an urgent trip to the dealer. Flat tires or running out of gas doesn't count. Dead battery only counts if it was self inflicted (left light on or the like).

Please mention what mods you had that may have (even peripherally) affected the failure.
Interesting topic. I have an '18 JGC Summit that I purchased new. Hemi V8. While I have not owned a 4Runner, I have had Toyota trucks in the past. I did look very closely at the new 4Runners prior to making the decision to purchase the Jeep.

I know that Toyota builds a quality product. However, in looking at them I was amazed at how cheap the interior materials were - so much low-grade plastics - nothing that felt like it was substantial or of quality. In closing the drivers door, the sound it made was a "ca ching" like sound - very hollow sounding and insubstantial sounding. The question in my mind was - "this is what is separating you from injury in a serious side collision...??" Then there was the outward visibility in the 4Runner - really poor. The height of the tops of the doors, the dash height, combined with the lower roofline made it feel like I was peering out of a bunker when driving it. I did not like the fact that it was an ancient design - and badly in need of a complete redo and modernization. The design / layout of the interior really put me off - completely illogical layout. (I've had many BMW's over the years, and appreciate the form follows function of their designs - a design philosophy completely absent in the Toyota. Everything in the interior of that 4Runner looked alien to me.)

Then there was the MSRP pricing which was no bargain - and the dealers were not offering any real substantial pricing discounts in my area.
As much as I wanted to like the Toyota - I just could not develop any appreciation for it.

I would caution you to not get too caught up in a lot of the negative nonsense that you may come across regarding the reliability of the Jeep Grand Cherokee. So much of what I read on this forum prior to purchasing the Jeep made me worried about what I might be facing. I made the decision to purchase it mainly on the recommendation from people I know that had JGC's and loved them - and their experiences with them did not parallel what was being conveyed in many instances in the forum.

My Jeep has been completely (100%) trouble-free. Zero problems. Not one.
 
#3 ·
I have not had a significant failure in 90,000 miles (9 years). I've had a weak tailgate strut replaced at about 50,000 miles and an oil pressure sensor replaced at about 80,000 miles at no additional cost. There were a couple recalls. This is an Overland model with plenty of bells a whistles.
 
#5 ·
ello,

First post on here as I am a member of the other Jeep forum. I am also on the 4Runner.org forum and saw your question there first. I check the forums daily but typically don't respond but wanted to respond to your question as I may have some helpful insight. This is going to be a rather long post unfortunately so bare with me.

I traded in a 2018 4Runner SR5 Premium. At the time, I also owned a BMW coupe and the 4Runner was going to be for winter, etc. I ended up selling the BWW (I've owned several over the years) and so the 4Runner became my sole vehicle/daily driver. For many reasons, I decided I was going to own just one vehicle and wanted an SUV vs. a car/coupe for daily driving.

I had no issues with the 4Runner but it was very low mileage, however, as a daily driver, I began to resent/miss some of the features it was missing. I really didn't like the PT 4Wheel drive system and missed some features such as Blind Spot Monitoring, front/rear sensors, leather, upgraded entertainment system/functionality, heated steering wheel, etc. Some of those features are available (but not all) on the top Limited Trim. However, I just couldn't get over the looks of that trim model with all the plastic chrome, etc. and knew I would still have to spend even more to upgrade the wheels/tires, etc. on the Limited trim model (I upgraded the tires to Michelin Defenders on my SR5). And, unfortunately, you cannot get full-time 4Wheel drive on any other trim.

I previously owned a 2014 GC Summit and had no problems with it but didn't keep it long (I tend to trade often). However, I loved the features/luxury/value it offered. I did not like all the chrome on that model (the Satin option was not available yet to replace the bright chrome). But, I love the entertainment set-up and functionality and think it is the 2nd bast available after BMW's. It even has some features BMW doesn't such as the ability to delete XM stations I never listen to and make it easier/quicker to browse the stations I like.

A few of my big concerns between upgrading to another 4Runner and a GC was bulletproof reliability vs. the looks and features/luxury of the GC. If I decide to keep the GC for more than the std. warranty, I would definitely get an extended MOPAR warranty from one of the online dealers, especially with the air suspension. I went back and forth for a few months on which way to go. In the end I went with a 2020 GC in the High Altitude trim. With the HA Trim, it eliminates all the chrome and has nearly all the luxury features that the Top of the Line Summit has, including the superior HK stereo. I kind of deduced that being the final year of production for the WK2, I hope that most of the bugs have been worked out and the reliability is at least average or better. I could have got a 4Runner Limited for about the same $, but I just couldn't get over the appearance of that trim (so frustrating you can't get the luxury features and full-time 4Wheel drive in the better looking trims such as the OffRoad Premium). If I went with any of the other lower trims that have a great appearance, I would still have to upgrade the tires, stereo, etc. and still not have full-time 4Wheel drive. I did test out a 2020 Limited and was disappointed in the new entertainment set-up, there was a noticeable lag making changes on the screen and the JBL set-up didn't sound nearly as good or offer nearly as nice functionality as the GC which was important to me. And of course the GC rides significantly better than any 4Runner trim and I don't miss the "nose dive" and brakes that seem somewhat inherent in the 4Runner. One last thing, the 4Runner box on frame seems to still have issues with rust and living in the Northeast, that was a concern.

Don't get me wrong, I do really like 4Runners and may go back to one day but hope the next generation addresses some of the above issues I have with the current generation.

Hope this helps in your decision making.
 
#6 ·
ello,

First post on here as I am a member of the other Jeep forum. I am also on the 4Runner.org forum and saw your question there first. I check the forums daily but typically don't respond but wanted to respond to your question as I may have some helpful insight. This is going to be a rather long post unfortunately so bare with me.

I traded in a 2018 4Runner SR5 Premium. At the time, I also owned a BMW coupe and the 4Runner was going to be for winter, etc. I ended up selling the BWW (I've owned several over the years) and so the 4Runner became my sole vehicle/daily driver. For many reasons, I decided I was going to own just one vehicle and wanted an SUV vs. a car/coupe for daily driving.

I had no issues with the 4Runner but it was very low mileage, however, as a daily driver, I began to resent/miss some of the features it was missing. I really didn't like the PT 4Wheel drive system and missed some features such as Blind Spot Monitoring, front/rear sensors, leather, upgraded entertainment system/functionality, heated steering wheel, etc. Some of those features are available (but not all) on the top Limited Trim. However, I just couldn't get over the looks of that trim model with all the plastic chrome, etc. and knew I would still have to spend even more to upgrade the wheels/tires, etc. on the Limited trim model (I upgraded the tires to Michelin Defenders on my SR5). And, unfortunately, you cannot get full-time 4Wheel drive on any other trim.

I previously owned a 2014 GC Summit and had no problems with it but didn't keep it long (I tend to trade often). However, I loved the features/luxury/value it offered. I did not like all the chrome on that model (the Satin option was not available yet to replace the bright chrome). But, I love the entertainment set-up and functionality and think it is the 2nd bast available after BMW's. It even has some features BMW doesn't such as the ability to delete XM stations I never listen to and make it easier/quicker to browse the stations I like.

A few of my big concerns between upgrading to another 4Runner and a GC was bulletproof reliability vs. the looks and features/luxury of the GC. If I decide to keep the GC for more than the std. warranty, I would definitely get an extended MOPAR warranty from one of the online dealers, especially with the air suspension. I went back and forth for a few months on which way to go. In the end I went with a 2020 GC in the High Altitude trim. With the HA Trim, it eliminates all the chrome and has nearly all the luxury features that the Top of the Line Summit has, including the superior HK stereo. I kind of deduced that being the final year of production for the WK2, I hope that most of the bugs have been worked out and the reliability is at least average or better. I could have got a 4Runner Limited for about the same $, but I just couldn't get over the appearance of that trim (so frustrating you can't get the luxury features and full-time 4Wheel drive in the better looking trims such as the OffRoad Premium). If I went with any of the other lower trims that have a great appearance, I would still have to upgrade the tires, stereo, etc. and still not have full-time 4Wheel drive. I did test out a 2020 Limited and was disappointed in the new entertainment set-up, there was a noticeable lag making changes on the screen and the JBL set-up didn't sound nearly as good or offer nearly as nice functionality as the GC which was important to me. And of course the GC rides significantly better than any 4Runner trim and I don't miss the "nose dive" and brakes that seem somewhat inherent in the 4Runner. One last thing, the 4Runner box on frame seems to still have issues with rust and living in the Northeast, that was a concern.

Don't get me wrong, I do really like 4Runners and may go back to one day but hope the next generation addresses some of the above issues I have with the current generation.

Hope this helps in your decision making.
Unfortunately no :wink2:.
As you know and mentioned, the 4R is bulletproof (but not rustproof) but is ancient, has lousy gas mileage but great resale.

The GC certainly isn't bulletproof (but doesn't rust as much) and is also pretty old (based on a what? 2009 MB chassis, but the creature comforts and driver assistance gear (and infotainment) has been updated. Like MB, the air suspension has a tendency to leak and droop. Gas mileage is far better than the 4R and resale is far worse.

I'm looking at a 50 mile commute in all weather conditions. It won't be my only car so I'll be driving my TSX wagon most of the time (that replaced a 335xi that was great when it ran) and I'm weighing reliability vs comfort and driving aids. It'll also be the hauler for the pooch in my avatar (in the hatch) and for that the 4R would have more room.

The decision isn't easy - especially when you hear the horror stories of failures, eating headlight bulbs (that aren't cheap and aren't covered under any warranty). Contrasting that are people like ColdCase with no failures in 90k miles.

While most failures aren't "broken down on the side of the road" failures, they do keep you on good terms with the service advisor - who don't have the best reputation.

And yes, the Limited is the way to go, but it'll take $3k in parts to make it look reasonable - along with a "downgrade" to "upgraded" 18" wheels over those awful 20's - but you have to change the wheels on most uplevel GCs as well (except Trailhawk maybe).

To get solid reliability, you need to buy new, then watch as depreciation takes the value down like a rock.

So yes, your insightful post has been very helpful -- but.....:smile2:
 
#7 ·
Do you off-road? If not, then why not consider e.g., the new Kia Telluride? Incredible value and chock full of features! I absolutely love my Trailhawk (40k miles, no issues), but if it wasn’t for the fact that I need the off-roading capabilities and beat the crap out of it, I’d go with something like the Kia.
 
#15 ·
Do you off-road? If not, then why not consider e.g., the new Kia Telluride? Incredible value and chock full of features! I absolutely love my Trailhawk (40k miles, no issues), but if it wasn't for the fact that I need the off-roading capabilities and beat the crap out of it, I'd go with something like the Kia.
While I won't be doing lots of "offroading", I do need a "go anywhere, anytime" vehicle, so the KIA/Hyundai clones are off the table. Good to hear that you're at 40k miles with no problems. Perhaps it really is a crap shoot about getting a good one.

Overlands and Trailhawks seem to be more reliable that the Summits....
 
#8 ·
I cant comment on a 4runner but my WK2 has been pretty good, I do have the lifetime maxicare. When new they had to replace one of the rear 1/4 trim since it dint fit well. Also had one of the headlamp modules replace at about 1 yr old, one of the LED cats eye segment failed so it looked blue. Last month had the Hemi water pump done, it was leaking, so I ordered a T-stat and serp belt and they replaced under warranty, worked for me since I was about to change the coolant. I have done the transmission filter/pan, t-case, diffs and spark plugs, also changed the PS Fluid. Have a Volant cold air intake with the powercore Donaldson filter. also have dedicated set of wheel/snows ( nokians) for winter.
This is the wifes winter beater we bought in May of 15. Has been 100% reliable, obviously had to bring it in once I notied the slight antifreeze leak on the WP. Almost bought a Limited with the 3.6 last fall but opted for a Rubicon to have another summer toy.


Oh have 52K miles on it. it is an Overland with the Hemi.
 
#17 ·
I cant comment on a 4runner but my WK2 has been pretty good, I do have the lifetime maxicare. When new they had to replace one of the rear 1/4 trim since it dint fit well. Also had one of the headlamp modules replace at about 1 yr old, one of the LED cats eye segment failed so it looked blue. Last month had the Hemi water pump done, it was leaking, so I ordered a T-stat and serp belt and they replaced under warranty, worked for me since I was about to change the coolant. I have done the transmission filter/pan, t-case, diffs and spark plugs, also changed the PS Fluid. Have a Volant cold air intake with the powercore Donaldson filter. also have dedicated set of wheel/snows ( nokians) for winter.
This is the wifes winter beater we bought in May of 15. Has been 100% reliable, obviously had to bring it in once I notied the slight antifreeze leak on the WP. Almost bought a Limited with the 3.6 last fall but opted for a Rubicon to have another summer toy.

Oh have 52K miles on it. it is an Overland with the Hemi.
It does seem like the Overlands are the most reliable of the bunch. I wonder why.
 
#9 ·
My nephew works as a tech at a honda-nissan-kia dealership. He says to never ever buy Kia. Kias are known for features and eye candy, but not reliability or durability. If you trade them off every two or three years and don't put much mileage on them, you should be OK.
 
#10 ·
I know a few techs at my local Dodge/jeep/Ram store, good freinds both with over 24 yrs experience. also a couple of other techs in there, one who came from the local huge Toyota store and another from Subaru. These guys can tell you all the wonderful things the fail on those makes. The local Toyota store is a brand new 4 yr old Tajmahol. The owner was forced by Toy to spend millions on this place, has like 60 bays in the service area. The gold plated show room, marble, all the crap I dont want to pay for in the price of my car! First thing owner did was suspend all pay raises for all the techs, jack up the hourly rate to 120/hr. He still knows friends working there who have not had a raise in 4 yrs, he calls it the flat rate upsell hell shop! The local Jeeps store is hourly, not flat rate and hourly rate is 85$. techs much happier!



Anyhow my two freind say the Grands, Rams and LX cars are pretty good, have the least amount of issues, especially the newer ones since they have worked all the bugs of them. My 17 SRT has been perfect so far not a single issue, and my two JLs havent had a problem as yet but they are relatively new. Of course I do most of my own maitnenance so I know they are properly maintained which goes a long way with relaibility.
 
#12 ·
A few additional thoughts:

You mentioned replacing headlights on the GC; haven't read or experienced this issue but I try to keep in mind how many GC's are built daily, especially in comparison to the 4Runner, so I assume there must be some percentages that come into play for reliability issues and on forums. One thing for sure, the headlights on all trims of the 4Runner are terrible and from what I've read of the people who switch them to LCD, etc. have experienced mixed results.

Regarding resale value, I agree totally but for that reason, I was determined to buy right and if I wasn't able to negotiate the degree of discount I felt was necessary to help offset the resale hit, I wouldn't have purchased. I waited until the end of the month and end of the year and successfully negotiated the right deal at my local dealer who I felt was the best JEEP dealer for sales and service (I did not feel that way with some of the other JEEP dealers).

Also, regarding wheels. I agree with your assessment of the 4Runner Limited wheels - I don't like them and would also have wanted to purchase both new wheels (the gray TRD) and 17" tires (Michelin). Just doing that would have put the price of the 4Runner above the price I paid for my GC High Altitude. I don't like black wheels (my age showing) but I do like the gray wheels that come on the HA trim and have no plans/desire to upgrade. I am also fine with the Pirelli tires that are stock on the HA trim and won't upgrade until they wear down.

I love the look of my 2020 GC in High Altitude trim (Bright White); it's a classic look that won't go out of style. As I previously stated, I really like the 4Runner look in the SR5 and Trail trims but I detest the look of the Limited trim. I thought about the Limited Trim and changing out the front to the other trims but in the end it just seemed to much cost and hassle to do it right (the only way I would do it).

Good luck in your decision - it's tough and you will probably always look back whichever way you go.
 
#16 ·
A few additional thoughts:

You mentioned replacing headlights on the GC; haven't read or experienced this issue Here is one recent example but I try to keep in mind how many GC's are built daily, especially in comparison to the 4Runner, so I assume there must be some percentages that come into play for reliability issues and on forums. One thing for sure, the headlights on all trims of the 4Runner are terrible Correct - kind of. There is nothing inherently wrong with halogens, but we've gotten used to the whiter light of HIDs and LEDs and from what I've read of the people who switch them to LCD, etc. have experienced mixed results Yes - especially since there is no legal upgrade path, so I'm stuck with what the manufacturer provides. One can do the H9/H11 upgrade or go with Silverstars that improve things dramatically.

Regarding resale value, I agree totally but for that reason, I was determined to buy right and if I wasn't able to negotiate the degree of discount I felt was necessary to help offset the resale hit, I wouldn't have purchased. Is there a "prices paid" thread around here? I waited until the end of the month and end of the year and successfully negotiated the right deal at my local dealer who I felt was the best JEEP dealer for sales and service (I did not feel that way with some of the other JEEP dealers).

Also, regarding wheels. I agree with your assessment of the 4Runner Limited wheels - I don't like them and would also have wanted to purchase both new wheels (the gray TRD) and 17" tires (Michelin). Just doing that would have put the price of the 4Runner above the price I paid for my GC High Altitude. I don't like black wheels (my age showing) yeah, me too but I do like the gray wheels that come on the HA trim and have no plans/desire to upgrade. I am also fine with the Pirelli tires that are stock on the HA trim and won't upgrade until they wear down.

I love the look of my 2020 GC in High Altitude trim (Bright White); it's a classic look that won't go out of style. As I previously stated, I really like the 4Runner look in the SR5 and Trail trims but I detest the look of the Limited trim. I thought about the Limited Trim and changing out the front to the other trims but in the end it just seemed to much cost and hassle to do it right (the only way I would do it). Yep. Parts are around $3500 unless you find somebody local who did a winch upgrade and has the original parts.

Good luck in your decision - it's tough and you will probably always look back whichever way you go.
Yes, the decision isn't easy, because you've got to live with it for many years. See my comments above in bold.

Thanks
 
#13 ·
Another buyer's perspective...I was coming from my third Xterra (as well as a bunch of other SUV's and sports cars). I love my Xterra but I needed something with an AT, so I started looking for an SUV with similar features...good backroads and winter capability, no need for a lot of bells & whistles or being prettied up, reasonable reliability at a reasonable price.

I must have test-driven new 4-Runners in a variety of trim-lines and options over 20 times. The first time I went to the dealer's with checkbook in hand, then I kept trying to convince myself that my first 19 test drives were somehow wrong. I really thought that I would love that vehicle because it fit my needs so well, but I could not get past the horrendous ride and handling. All of them were like driving a 80's sedan with worn out shocks, the steering is numb, and the vehicle wanders all over the road. Horrible, horrible driving experience. Not made for anyone who cares about actual driving, never mind reliability, dashboard/wheel appearance, bells & whistles, or anything else. OP, I can't imagine using this for a 50 mi/day commute, particularly if you've appreciated sports cars in the past.

I ended up with my 2020 GC Limited and am very happy driving it. I hope the reliability is good.
 
#20 ·
Another buyer's perspective...I was coming from my third Xterra (as well as a bunch of other SUV's and sports cars). I love my Xterra but I needed something with an AT, so I started looking for an SUV with similar features...good backroads and winter capability, no need for a lot of bells & whistles or being prettied up, reasonable reliability at a reasonable price.

I must have test-driven new 4-Runners in a variety of trim-lines and options over 20 times. The first time I went to the dealer's with checkbook in hand, then I kept trying to convince myself that my first 19 test drives were somehow wrong. I really thought that I would love that vehicle because it fit my needs so well, but I could not get past the horrendous ride and handling. All of them were like driving a 80's sedan with worn out shocks, the steering is numb, and the vehicle wanders all over the road. Horrible, horrible driving experience. Not made for anyone who cares about actual driving, never mind reliability, dashboard/wheel appearance, bells & whistles, or anything else. OP, I can't imagine using this for a 50 mi/day commute, particularly if you've appreciated sports cars in the past. Yes, but the reliability is clearly there

I ended up with my 2020 GC Limited and am very happy driving it. I hope the reliability is good.
Good to hear. Thanks. Too bad they ditched the lifetime warranty.
 
#14 ·
I dont' think "significant failure" is a good way to judge, imho....that can happen anytime w/ any vehicle, but doesn't necessarily show a propensity for it....It's the frequency of "significant repairs" per model that would be relevant.

BTW...i've done a lot of beach driving w/ jeeps and I keep going to them. A close friend has a 4runner; was great on the sand...we used to challenge each other .."4wd test drive" where we would try tougher and tougher "routes"...he loved his 4runner so much ended up replacing the engine. Because of that expense, he bought a back-up vehicle for the beach...a Cherokee!:smile2:
 
#21 ·
I saw a Kia Telluride driving down the street yesterday. I still wouldn't buy one. However, it was a decent looking ride. They seem to be upping their game. Years ago I was looking at 4Runners. Can't beat the reliability of a Toyota. The bodies and frames seem to be a short coming. I am thinking about the Tacoma Debacle of the 00s. My in-laws have an 06 Tacoma. I game them a set of running boards for it one Christmas. The rust under it was obnoxious. I ended using a tap to chase the rust out of threads to mount it. It seems like every time I go to visit them I am fixing something on it. They also dumped a lot of money in to repairs on it. Part of the issue is lack of use. The WK2s that I have been around are sublime or at least superb.

Is the dog in the avatar a service dog?
 
#22 ·
I saw a Kia Telluride driving down the street yesterday. I still wouldn't buy one. However, it was a decent looking ride. They seem to be upping their game. Years ago I was looking at 4Runners. Can't beat the reliability of a Toyota. The bodies and frames seem to be a short coming. I am thinking about the Tacoma Debacle of the 00s. My in-laws have an 06 Tacoma. I game them a set of running boards for it one Christmas. The rust under it was obnoxious. I ended using a tap to chase the rust out of threads to mount it. It seems like every time I go to visit them I am fixing something on it. They also dumped a lot of money in to repairs on it. Part of the issue is lack of use. The WK2s that I have been around are sublime or at least superb.

Is the dog in the avatar a service dog?
Yep, that's her official photo. She's retired military and a service dog now. My photo looks very similar except I'm not smiling and I'm wearing a suit instead of a badge.

Did you know that military dogs always outrank their handlers? Now she outranks everyone in the family :smile2:
 
#23 ·
We rented a 4Runner for a week in Yellowstone this past summer. As much as I like the looks I couldn’t get myself to switch to one. It was “loaded” but so far behind in tech, interior, ride quality and power.
I’d own one as a toy to build up and have fun with on trails but not as my main vehicle.
I do miss my old 4Runner though. Had one with the removable top back when they first came out. Went over 200k miles with just a clutch and a water pump.
 
#26 ·
I've thought this one through a few times myself. What would stop me from buying a 4-Runner is the lack of two important features:
1) full time 4x4, an SUV used for 90% on road use, just has to have full time 4x4.
2) V-8 power, the engines in both the Tacoma and 4 Runner are hopelessly outclassed vs the Hemi.

Having owned a WK-1 Hemi for about 10 years no way I'd give up the V8 and full time 4x4 in this style of vehicle. And over the 10+ years and over 100,000 miles the repairs needed were not excessive by any means.
 

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#27 ·
I've thought this one through a few times myself. What would stop me from buying a 4-Runner is the lack of two important features:
1) full time 4x4, an SUV used for 90% on road use, just has to have full time 4x4.
2) V-8 power, the engines in both the Tacoma and 4 Runner are hopelessly outclassed vs the Hemi.

Having owned a WK-1 Hemi for about 10 years no way I'd give up the V8 and full time 4x4 in this style of vehicle. And over the 10+ years and over 100,000 miles the repairs needed were not excessive by any means.
You're not making this any easier :smile2::smile2::grin2:
 
#28 ·
I have a part time job driving for a rental car company. Over the last year I've driven most of the cars in our fleet several hundred miles in many driving environments (but not offroad). I can't speak from an ownership experience, but from a driving perspective the Jeep Grand Cherokee is the best vehicle in our fleet. It is a very well balanced, well sorted vehicle. The Pentastar V6 works extremely well with its transmission. The suspension is well tuned to allow the driver to feel exactly what the wheels are doing at all times and the steering feedback superb. The chassis is composed and balanced especially on rough pavement. The JGC will hustle through tight curves with composure that belies its weight. Every time I drive the JGC, I am amazed at the attention to detail that the engineers lavished on the JGC to make it feel right in a driver's hands. Honorable mention to the Chevy Traverse which is also well sorted from a driving perspective.

At the other end of the scale is the Toyota 4Runner. It is the worst car in our fleet from a driver's perspective. It is extremely tiring to drive because it has to be driven constantly. That is, take your eyes off the road for a split second and the 4Runner will be out of its lane. It does not hold the road well. The suspension is poorly tuned. Steering feedback is poor. Throttle response is extremely non-linear. Press the throttle and nothing happens. Press the throttle a little more. Still nothing. Press the throttle a little more and BWAAAA! It downshifts and shoots forward. The engine and transmission don't work well together. Whatever qualities the 4Runner may have, it is a very poor driver's vehicle. Honorable mention for last place goes to the Ford Mustang convertible--another poorly sorted vehicle.
 
#29 ·
This won’t help, but one thing I wish I’d considered/realized was the capability and following that the Lexus GX 460/470’s have. More refined and luxurious than the 4Runners, V8, and very capable off road. Plus I love the barn door on the rear. Definitely pricey, but I would’ve bought used anyway for that vehicle.

I can’t say I’d have picked one over my Trailhawk, but I wish I’d known more about them so I could have researched it and driven some.
 
#32 ·
This won't help, but one thing I wish I'd considered/realized was the capability and following that the Lexus GX 460/470's have. More refined and luxurious than the 4Runners, V8, and very capable off road. Plus I love the barn door on the rear. Definitely pricey, but I would've bought used anyway for that vehicle.

I can't say I'd have picked one over my Trailhawk, but I wish I'd known more about them so I could have researched it and driven some.
Actually, that's the third vehicle I was considering. Better lights than the 4R, far nicer interior with more driver aids - but - lousy gas mileage (13-18) and a 20.5ft turning radius.
 
#30 ·
My nephew destroyed the suspension his mother's Lexus GX and routinely came home with body damage. There was always something needing fixed, turned into a money pit. She also had to hire off road rescue services routinely.

He hasn't been able to destroy the base Laredo yet (has been trying for a year) and he hasn't been needing a rescued, I don't think he's changed his driving style. And the Laredo is AWD, not even 4WD with the bells and whistles the lexus had, or low range. The Lexus was OK on the street, kind of a lumbering giant, has the same aging platform as the 4Runner.. It is some kind of status symbol in certain circles... I think thats why she bought it. You can get a Toyota V8 in one, but thats not saying much.

Its nice to have some choices to comparison shop, however. Just saying that they are not as rugged and up to date technically as marketing portrays them . :smile2:
 
#31 ·
My nephew destroyed the suspension his mother's Lexus GX and routinely came home with body damage. There was always something needing fixed, turned into a money pit. She also had to hire off road rescue services routinely.

He hasn't been able to destroy the base Laredo yet (has been trying for a year) and he hasn't been needing a rescued, I don't think he's changed his driving style. And the Laredo is AWD, not even 4WD with the bells and whistles the lexus had, or low range. The Lexus was OK on the street, kind of a lumbering giant, has the same aging platform as the 4Runner.. It is some kind of status symbol in certain circles... I think thats why she bought it. You can get a Toyota V8 in one, but thats not saying much.

Its nice to have some choices to comparison shop, however. Just saying that they are not as rugged and up to date technically as marketing portrays them . :smile2:
I would agree with this. The Lexus handles poorly.

I owned a 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser. Excellent V8 engine - but that was all that I liked about it. Big. Lumbering. Pig. Expensive to fix - and there was always something stupid going wrong with it.
 
#34 ·
Are you on Expedition Portal? Lots of good info and experience with various platforms, and a LOT of those guys are overlanding where DIY fixes and reliability are big factors. Just don’t dive into the Unimog and big vehicle forums, they’ll make you green with envy. LOL. At least they do for me.
 
#36 ·
Are you on Expedition Portal? Lots of good info and experience with various platforms, and a LOT of those guys are overlanding where DIY fixes and reliability are big factors. Just don't dive into the Unimog and big vehicle forums, they'll make you green with envy. LOL. At least they do for me.
I almost bought an Unimog about 30 years ago. They will go everywhere but aren't the most comfortable.
 
#39 ·
It may have been that decades ago, but why do all the car experts publish that the current GX series is based on the 10 year old 4Runner design? Are they all misleading folks, or is the difference in the noise?

For grins, a new guy on the block just looking at the current specs, equipment, photos, the 4R and GX differences look the same as the difference between the Laredo and Summit. The Laredo being a capable basic vehicle like a 4R, where the Summit is softer for a more lux boulevard ride, with loads of sound deadening, a different suspension transfer case, rear diff, with higher line leather interiors fancy wheels and styling touches, but still with plenty of off road and top notch nasty weather capability (with the right tires). Like the GX.

Toyota has made it a habit to blame customer maintenance, or operator error for a slew of design flaws and Toyota fans buy it. Its a company cultural thing, I mean with the Toyota process its impossible for Toyota to be at fault, must be the customers being stupid.... :)

Toyota fans like to tout that they are strong as dirt, which was the case decades ago when they were simple machines. I had a Nissan that was strong as dirt reliable, but brutal on the highway, I don't think it even had AC. Today Toyota/Lexus is just another car in reliability and durability terms.

I think many get caught up with off road capability where 99 out of 100 of these vehicles will never see a logging road let alone a trail. Its no question, jeep offers competitive products for that hobby, you see tons of them on the trail. In the real world for most, its uncomplicated nasty weather performance, towing, handling feel, safety that make a difference. The WK2 is a lot easier to drive in nasty weather than just about anything else that you'd want to spend hours behind the wheel with. Just push the throttle and go. And it drives nice year round, stable on the highway and byways. Getting around is not as dependent on driver skill as the 4R or Lexus, both of which require some manual intervention to activate part time traction aids. Jeep and Dodge used similar drive trains to current Lexus stuff years ago, my 2001 Dakota had something that looks and operated identical to the Lexus components, but they have moved on from that old architecture to much more capable software controlled components in the WK2 and Durango.
 
#44 ·
It may have been that decades ago, but why do all the car experts publish that the current GX series is based on the 10 year old 4Runner design? Are they all misleading folks, or is the difference in the noise? I just think it depends on the definition of "based on". I'll be happy to agree that the 4R and the GX are identical.

For grins, a new guy on the block just looking at the current specs, equipment, photos, the 4R and GX differences look the same as the difference between the Laredo and Summit. Sure. Completely different suspensions, engines, transmissions, electronics, driver assistance. Different interior, exterior. The rear hatch from the 4R is a door on the GX and only a handful of minor parts are interchangeable - but those are interchangeable with most Toyota/Lexus. But you're right, other than that they're the same. The Laredo being a capable basic vehicle like a 4R, where the Summit is softer for a more lux boulevard ride, with loads of sound deadening, a different suspension transfer case, rear diff, with higher line leather interiors fancy wheels and styling touches, but still with plenty of off road and top notch nasty weather capability (with the right tires). Like the GX. But the body bits, most interior and engine/tranny parts are the same. The Laredo and Summit are trim levels on an identical platform. The 4R and GX are two completely different cars based on the same frame. For the GC, I'd say it IS like the difference between the GC and the Mercedes GLE - that is the same comparison.

Toyota has made it a habit to blame customer maintenance, or operator error for a slew of design flaws and Toyota fans buy it. Its a company cultural thing, I mean with the Toyota process its impossible for Toyota to be at fault, must be the customers being stupid.... :)

Toyota fans like to tout that they are strong as dirt, which was the case decades ago when they were simple machines. I had a Nissan that was strong as dirt reliable, but brutal on the highway, I don't think it even had AC. Absolutely correct. The things that make the 4R/GX so reliable are the things it doesn't have. The old Cherokee were also reliable but they also lacked the bells and whistles that we've grown accustomed to. Today Toyota/Lexus is just another car in reliability and durability terms. Right. Because they've added all of the crap that breaks to all of the other cars in the lineup. If you took away the air suspension, put in an AM/FM radio and halogen lights, then the GC would also be reliable.

I think many get caught up with off road capability where 99 out of 100 of these vehicles will never see a logging road let alone a trail.You bet'cha Its no question, jeep offers competitive products for that hobby, you see tons of them on the trail. In the real world for most, its uncomplicated nasty weather performance, towing, handling feel, safety that make a difference. The WK2 is a lot easier to drive in nasty weather than just about anything else that you'd want to spend hours behind the wheel with. Just push the throttle and go. And it drives nice year round, stable on the highway and byways. Absolutely agree. The GC is an all-weather vehicle that can be a daily driver. Getting around is not as dependent on driver skill as the 4R or Lexus, both of which require some manual intervention to activate part time traction aids. Depends on the trim levels. Not much you need to do with the GX unless you get into really serious issues. At that point you need to flip some buttons on the GC too. Jeep and Dodge used similar drive trains to current Lexus stuff years ago, my 2001 Dakota had something that looks and operated identical to the Lexus components, but they have moved on from that old architecture to much more capable software controlled components in the WK2 and Durango.
See my comments in bold italics above.

The GC, on paper, is clearly the best as a daily driver, the 4R is worst and the GX would be OK if one can overlook the gas mileage (or lack thereof) and can live without the toys we're used to these days.

The question comes down to reliability. Is the reliability as awful as reported on other forums or is the reliability (and the related lousy resale) like Hyundai/KIA - much better quality but the reputation is a remnant from days gone by where the product had issues?

From reading this forum, it looks like there are issues with the air suspension and headlights/DRLs as systemic issues, but the rest of the vehicle is mostly solid.

Oddly enough, while most reviewers (and other non FCA forums) rate uconnect as one of the better systems out there, there are multiple complaints about uconnect here.

For me - right now - there are two questions I need to resolve - reliability and quality of dealerships.

I've had Lexus in the past and most of the service locations are pretty good - quiet, clean waiting rooms with decent amenities - the local one has a coffee bar, bagels and cream cheese in the morning, pastries in the afternoon, massaging chairs and so forth. Any service (warranty, maintenance or out of warranty) that takes over two hours get a Lexus loaner. One service department is open every day (including all holidays) and is open from 6am to 11pm during the week and 7am to 6pm on weekends and holiday. No appointments taken.

Most of the local Jeep dealers in the DC area are in run down buildings with crummy waiting rooms and loaners appear to be hard to come by. On the upside, a Jeep dealer is about 3 miles away from my house while the closest Lexus dealer is about a half hour away - I need to drive by the Jeep dealer to get to the Lexus shop.

How important is that? Or does somebody have a good Jeep service in the greater DC area?
 
#41 ·
While getting information is never a bad thing, you can't judge a vehicle based upon posts on a forum. The only people who come here are biased, either positive, ie justifying their purchase, or negative, ie an issue or problem.

You also can't really base the reliability of a model, overland, trailhawk, limited, based upon what people here are complaining about. The numbers are way to small for some of the models to make any significant determination based upon what people are saying. Plus, realistically, there are very few differences between the models.

Either of these are good vehicles. There will be an occasional lemon from either vehicle. Both are old designs with most of the issues worked out. I personally think toyota hasn't invested much in their suv lately, saving it all for their cars, and carlike suv's, and it really shows. I think they are overpriced get terrible gas mileage, and have very few bells and whistles. I think the jeep GC, is jeep's flagship, and while due for a refresh, are treated like their higher end vehicle and updated with a lot of the bells and whistles that aren't necessary, but sure are nice.

I have owned a land cruiser and a lexus lx470, they were great vehicles for their time, and really great vehicles period. They do hold their value but they are on a different level than the 4runner. I tried them both and ended up trading my lexus in for a jeep and am very happy I didn't get the 4runner.
 
#46 ·
While getting information is never a bad thing, you can't judge a vehicle based upon posts on a forum. The only people who come here are biased, either positive, ie justifying their purchase, or negative, ie an issue or problem.

You also can't really base the reliability of a model, overland, trailhawk, limited, based upon what people here are complaining about. The numbers are way to small for some of the models to make any significant determination based upon what people are saying. Plus, realistically, there are very few differences between the models.

Either of these are good vehicles. There will be an occasional lemon from either vehicle. Both are old designs with most of the issues worked out. I personally think toyota hasn't invested much in their suv lately, saving it all for their cars, and carlike suv's, and it really shows. I think they are overpriced get terrible gas mileage, and have very few bells and whistles. I think the jeep GC, is jeep's flagship, and while due for a refresh, are treated like their higher end vehicle and updated with a lot of the bells and whistles that aren't necessary, but sure are nice.

I have owned a land cruiser and a lexus lx470, they were great vehicles for their time, and really great vehicles period. They do hold their value but they are on a different level than the 4runner. I tried them both and ended up trading my lexus in for a jeep and am very happy I didn't get the 4runner.
Yeah, I know what you mean about forums, but you do get a sense of systemic problems. I've scratched the 4R off my list due to on-road manners. the GX gas mileage is quite awful. I'd get a Land Cruiser in a heartbeat, but to get close to my wallet I'd have to go a bit too old (13'ish) with higher miles.
 
#43 ·
I came from a Compass. A 2016 that was fairly plain. I had a need for more room, similar fuel economy fewer miles. When I started the search I picked three models. A Grand Cherokee, a Ford Explorer or a Toyota Highlander. All three brands have treated me well for a long time.

The Explorer had a third row seat, which may or may not have been handy. Nice ride and ample space. Drove some work Explorers and mostly like them.

The Highlander, I looked at, never drove one. Thought it wasn’t quite what I wanted. Something that would be okay on less than paved roads.

Finally, I drove WK2 and loved it. The first one I looked at was a 15 that was fancier than what I have now. That was a fun test drive. I made my mind up. I looked at what options I wanted. I wanted select terrain and a few other options.

So far, so good.
 
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#47 ·
OP asked about Toyota to Jeep transition.

I was never a 4R owner. But had a 100Series 2000 Toy LC. I felt it was the nicest of the SUVs in terms of appointments and creature comforts. Only issues were worn starter and cracked exhaust manifold. 4.7L V8 engine was a gas hog, but I loved everything else about it. (Til X-wife totaled it at 80k miles in 2009)

History

‘94 Jeep ZJ 4.0 I-6 cloth seats, PT 4wd.
‘96 Jeep ZJ 5.2L V8, cloth, FT AWD.
‘00 Toyo LC 4.7L V8 Luxomobile. AWD.
‘04 Audi allroad V6 2.7L turbo AWD.
‘16 Jeep WK2 Overland 5.7L V8.

Rank: The TLC was #1 the nicest. It took 16 years for the WK2 to catch up to my expectations and is #2, although it has some far advanced features now like emergency forward collision avoidance the Toyota could not offer at the time.

Reliability:

Purchased the leftover ‘16 Overland V8 new in 2017. Purchased Lifetime wty.

Now @ 30K miles 3 years old.
No major problems or strandings.
- leaky shock absorber
- backup emergency braking sensor module stuck in overprotective mode.
- minor interior trim piece replaced

Expecting to replace tires and fluids in front diff, TCase, Tranny at 50K. (Already did rear diff) Tows well. Always starts.
 
#48 ·
Which engine are you looking into for the WK2? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

The reason I ask is b/c I average 15-18 locally and 18-19 (IIRC) with the 5.7. The rest of the picture: I drive with ECO Off around town as it makes you really get into it to pickup speed if you have it on. In my defense, I drive our SRT8 a lot, too, so I have a heavier foot. I also don’t do a lot of highway driving. Just thought I should add that info. Also, I prefer the SRT seats that are in the Trailhawk vs the regular seats in the other models.
 
#49 ·
Which engine are you looking into for the WK2? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

The reason I ask is b/c I average 15-18 locally and 18-19 (IIRC) with the 5.7. The rest of the picture: I drive with ECO Off around town as it makes you really get into it to pickup speed if you have it on. In my defense, I drive our SRT8 a lot, too, so I have a heavier foot. I also don't do a lot of highway driving. Just thought I should add that info. Also, I prefer the SRT seats that are in the Trailhawk vs the regular seats in the other models.
Sorry, I'm looking at the V8
 
#50 ·
You are over thinking this. Stop it.
1. Dealers are dealers, if this is a reason you are buying something go in and talk with the service manager. This isn't really the place for asking that kind of questions.
2. If gas mileage is important go with the 6 cylinder jeep. If not go with the 8 cylinder jeep. They are both way better than the toyota. And, don't even think about bringing Land cruisers into the discussion, they are worse than 4-runners.
3. If reliability is your main thought, probably go with the toyota. Toyota has a better reputation than jeep.
4. If you want bells and whistles go with the Jeep, it has more.


The jeep has a better ride, better mileage and more bells and whistles. The toyota has better perceived reliability and better resale value. Make a decision.
 
#53 ·
You are over thinking this. Stop it.
1. Dealers are dealers, if this is a reason you are buying something go in and talk with the service manager. This isn't really the place for asking that kind of questions.
2. If gas mileage is important go with the 6 cylinder jeep. If not go with the 8 cylinder jeep. They are both way better than the toyota. And, don't even think about bringing Land cruisers into the discussion, they are worse than 4-runners.
3. If reliability is your main thought, probably go with the toyota. Toyota has a better reputation than jeep.
4. If you want bells and whistles go with the Jeep, it has more.

The jeep has a better ride, better mileage and more bells and whistles. The toyota has better perceived reliability and better resale value. Make a decision.
I can do lots of stuff. I'm not sure I can do that.....

Over the last couple of days I drove a friend's (yes, I have some) 4R. It was a 2017 with KDSS and while the ride wasn't horrible, it wasn't great either. The lights were awful compared to modern cars and since there is no legal alternative, I'd be stuck with those. They reminded me of the 2016 Wrangler I drove.

Today I drove a Trailhawk with the HIDs and the 5.7. It was a pleasant drive and I was pretty surprised.

Perhaps the decision now is what trim to get - Trailhawk, Overland, Summit?

Thoughts?
 
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