Procedure for testing relays when no start with a good battery - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 25 Old 05-09-2021, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
PlainoldCheroke
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Question Procedure for testing relays when no start with a good battery

Hi Folks,
New battery this past fall in my 2011 Overland. Suddenly there is a NO START, but battery power is still 12 volts, and key is detected, but button does nothing, and manually inserting the key Fob and turning also does nothing. I think I need to test the K4 and K3 relays in that order. Does anyone have a test procedure protocol? before I start replacing relays. Obviously a starter or other wiring issue could be the problem but I want to start with the simple as there have been no weird starter noises and this is how electrical switches die, in my experience. Thanks


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post #2 of 25 Old 05-09-2021, 06:45 PM
ColdCase
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There is a long procedure, but it assumes you have a DTC to read status. Here are some things you can do without a test set or something like AlfaOBD or AppCar.

Using a 12 volt test light/DVOM to check for power at/going to pin 85 of the starter relay

Verify both powers (pin 30 and 85) to the Starter Relay in the crank position

Using a test light/DVOM determine if the Starter Control circuit at pin 86 of the relay is missing (at the relay if equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) when cycling the ignition to the crank position.

•Verify the Starter Relay Control circuit from pin 86, that there are no shorts, opens or high resistance on the wiring going from the Starter Relay in the TIPM to the PCM, Starter Solenoid and Starter.
•Verify the cables do not have excessive resistance by performing a voltage drop on the battery cables.

Remove the Starter Relay Output circuit connector from the Starter solenoid.

2. Reinstall/Connect the starter relay into the TIPM.

3. Using a test light/DVOM and ignition in the crank position check for power at pin 87 (If equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) of the relay and at the connection to the starter.

•If power is missing to pin 30 of the starter relay the TIPM is suspect. Verify all power, ground, communication circuits and connections to the TIPM before replacing in accordance with service information.
•If power is missing at pin 87 of the starter relay and the relay is replaceable, change out the relay and recheck the concern. If a known good relay causes no change, check the Starter Output circuit from pin 87 of the relay to the starter for an open, short, excessive resistance, or poor connections to the solenoid or starter.
•Verify and Inspect the Starter to ensure it is free of corrosion, oil, and there is no damage, or binding conditions.
•Verify that all wiring, cables and connections are clean and tight.

You should also do a load test on the battery before anything else.

There are inhibits in the PCM... (i.e. Ignition Switch, Trans Range or Clutch Switch) .
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I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory;
Current: 2011 Grand Cherokee Overland V8, 2009 Liberty Rocky Mt V6
Previous: 2000 Grand Cherokee Laredo I6, 1979 CJ7 I6 Quadratrac
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post #3 of 25 Old 05-09-2021, 07:00 PM
ColdCase
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Also starter fails to operate possible cause checklist:

Battery discharged or inoperative , There have been several no start posts that turned out to be a battery that looked OK but was not.
Starter motor or solenoid inoperative
Starter relay inoperative
Park/Neutral position switch inoperative (if equipped with automatic transmission)
Ignition switch inoperative
Starting circuit wiring inoperative

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory;
Current: 2011 Grand Cherokee Overland V8, 2009 Liberty Rocky Mt V6
Previous: 2000 Grand Cherokee Laredo I6, 1979 CJ7 I6 Quadratrac
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post #4 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 05:55 AM Thread Starter
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Well, my basic scan tool reports a " link error" when trying to read codes. Thanks for the diagram; I am not sure where these pin numbers are ( assuming fuse box) but am trying to check the two relays #43 and 44 in the box first, as I would think the relays are the most likely to fail. Removing battery in order to load test it first. And, because I notice a "hood safety switch" I will check that as I had opened the hood to check oil right before going to drive the car. Guess I will driving the old '95 for a few days ! Glad to have that one working well

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post #5 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlainoldCheroke View Post
Hi Folks,
New battery this past fall in my 2011 Overland. Suddenly there is a NO START, but battery power is still 12 volts, and key is detected, but button does nothing,...
12.0 or 12.9? Actually a huge difference? 12.0 is DEAD. 12.8 is fully charged...
Also "button does nothing" does anything turn on? Do you get a "click" when trying to start?

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post #6 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 07:25 AM
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New battery for me last fall too. I think it was the original I replaced. Gave it to my coworker for his golf cart.

Yeah, I'd have the battery tested first. This is the root cause of most problems.

You can test the relays with a 12V battery and a DVM. Or just take them apart and look for burned contacts.

I bought a small 12V DC battery for testing stuff in the garage. Rechargeable.
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post #7 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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I will get a digital tester to tell if 12-12.9 volts.... my meter can only be set to 10 or 50 and on the latter it's hard to tell.
There is no noise at all, so I'm quite sure it's a circuit that's dead. Funny that the key works to get into the car, and normal dash lights until you press ( or turn the key) button, so I have concluded it's in the starter circuit. The 40 amp fuse is good, and I've swapped the relay to no avail. So, I need to read up on the start circuit. There is some factor not checking out, though I agree the battery is the #1 suspect even though it was brand new in November.

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post #8 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 10:09 AM
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Remote start also fails? Any message on the dash display after/during?

2012 Overland 4X4 Mineral Gray/New Saddle, HEMI , 24p (ACC,BSM, FCW)
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post #9 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 10:50 AM
ColdCase
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Its an AGM battery, throwing a digital voltmeter is not going to tell you much. You need an AGM battery tester, and know how to use it. The battery is too new to have worn out, however.

I don't think I've read here about unable to turn over unless it was a bad ground connection, run down battery, or a battery that looked good but was not. That 2011 TIPM can be troublesome. Pull the connectors and look for corrosion or pushed pins.

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory;
Current: 2011 Grand Cherokee Overland V8, 2009 Liberty Rocky Mt V6
Previous: 2000 Grand Cherokee Laredo I6, 1979 CJ7 I6 Quadratrac
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post #10 of 25 Old 05-10-2021, 11:25 AM
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Dealer could have put an old battery in it and forgot to put a new one in. Who knows what happens.

Maybe find a date code on the battery?
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post #11 of 25 Old 05-11-2021, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
PlainoldCheroke
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NO START, with good battery

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTizzie View Post
Dealer could have put an old battery in it and forgot to put a new one in. Who knows what happens.

Maybe find a date code on the battery?

THIS MADE ME LAUGH: buy a battery from a Dealer? Yikes.
New battery in November was from my trusted dekka battery man and it now tests good with a full 800 amp load, so this is not the battery.

I am checking all grounds, and using a brass brush to clean rust as the first one I spot for the TIPM has surface rust on the ground bolt.... working down the line now to test all grounds and locate the neutral safety switch before moving inside the TIPM to test 87 and other pins

1995 Cherokee 4.0 with no power options.;
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post #12 of 25 Old 05-11-2021, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Alpha or AppCar - ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTizzie View Post
Dealer could have put an old battery in it and forgot to put a new one in. Who knows what happens.

Maybe find a date code on the battery?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post
There is a long procedure, but it assumes you have a DTC to read status. Here are some things you can do without a test set or something like AlfaOBD or AppCar.

Using a 12 volt test light/DVOM to check for power at/going to pin 85 of the starter relay

Verify both powers (pin 30 and 85) to the Starter Relay in the crank position

Using a test light/DVOM determine if the Starter Control circuit at pin 86 of the relay is missing (at the relay if equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) when cycling the ignition to the crank position.

•Verify the Starter Relay Control circuit from pin 86, that there are no shorts, opens or high resistance on the wiring going from the Starter Relay in the TIPM to the PCM, Starter Solenoid and Starter.
•Verify the cables do not have excessive resistance by performing a voltage drop on the battery cables.

Remove the Starter Relay Output circuit connector from the Starter solenoid.

2. Reinstall/Connect the starter relay into the TIPM.

3. Using a test light/DVOM and ignition in the crank position check for power at pin 87 (If equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) of the relay and at the connection to the starter.

•If power is missing to pin 30 of the starter relay the TIPM is suspect. Verify all power, ground, communication circuits and connections to the TIPM before replacing in accordance with service information.
•If power is missing at pin 87 of the starter relay and the relay is replaceable, change out the relay and recheck the concern. If a known good relay causes no change, check the Starter Output circuit from pin 87 of the relay to the starter for an open, short, excessive resistance, or poor connections to the solenoid or starter.
•Verify and Inspect the Starter to ensure it is free of corrosion, oil, and there is no damage, or binding conditions.
•Verify that all wiring, cables and connections are clean and tight.

You should also do a load test on the battery before anything else.

There are inhibits in the PCM... (i.e. Ignition Switch, Trans Range or Clutch Switch) .
/Since it has now passed the battery load test - at full 800 amps, I assuming I must go into test mode. So, what is AppCar? and is a DTC a tester I can locally purchase that goes beyond my OBDII code reader? I am prepared to start testing circuits. I've brushed all ground connections and don't see any problematic ones.... Car is not on a lift and so I can only crawl under to look at the starter connection. I am studyiing the wiring diagram now so thanks for sending it

1995 Cherokee 4.0 with no power options.;
2011 GC Overland Hemi
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post #13 of 25 Old 05-11-2021, 12:25 PM
ColdCase
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If the brake switch (on the pedal) is faulty its not going to turn over/start. Thats a relatively simple thing to check/replace.

I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory;
Current: 2011 Grand Cherokee Overland V8, 2009 Liberty Rocky Mt V6
Previous: 2000 Grand Cherokee Laredo I6, 1979 CJ7 I6 Quadratrac
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post #14 of 25 Old 05-11-2021, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
PlainoldCheroke
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SO APPCar is $50 for one VIN which sound a lot less than a tow. Does anyone have experience with the DTC MX either bluetooth wireless or the straight wire connector to a PC? My search says that Walmart carries them, and if I can get my hands on one and then run AppCar, perhaps it will be able to diagnose more than I can with a test light on pins #87 and #30 on the relay circuits. It's funny that after removing the car's battery to take it off for a load test which it passed, now when re-connected, I can still open and shut doors, but the dash reads " damaged key" which it did not before and it does it on both of my keys so that's clearly related to the battery removal, not the cause of my NO Start.

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post #15 of 25 Old 05-11-2021, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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brake pedal switch-- same as brake light switch in older cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdCase View Post
If the brake switch (on the pedal) is faulty its not going to turn over/start. Thats a relatively simple thing to check/replace.
Looking for this in the brake pedal area now. IT's a modular plug-in... so where do you test it?

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