Hellcat oil pump in 5.7 Hemi - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-07-2019, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
putergod
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Hellcat oil pump in 5.7 Hemi

Will the hellcat oil pump fit and operate in the 5.7 Hemi? I am removing the entire MDS system due to a failed MDS lifter wiping out the cam and bending a pushrod. Since I am already in there, I am upgrading the cam, valve springs, and pushrods, and am switching to hellcat lifters. I heard in small rumblings that the hellcat oil pump will work, and flows more oil than the standard 5.7 pump, but I cannot find anything concrete about those details.


Also, what weight oil is best in a non-mds hemi? I definitely want to go thicker than 5w-20, as it is my personal belief that one of the reasons for lifter failures in MDS engines is due to thin oil with less than ideal lubrication properties on the needle bearings of the lifters.



Thanks in advance!

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post #2 of 21 Old 07-07-2019, 09:03 PM
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I would research some of the performance hemi forums, there are a bunch of them, the chrysler 300 and charger forums seem to be most active. The WK2 5.7 is identical to other platform 5.7s except for exhaust manifolds (narrower to fit engine bay) and somewhat different cam characteristics.

Let us know what you find.

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post #3 of 21 Old 07-08-2019, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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I've searched most of those forums and the closet thing I have found was a couple threads about 5.7 Rams with similar issues and someone following up with suggestions on parts with "and a hellcat oil pump". But nothing from anyone saying "I put a hellcat oil pump in my 5.7 and it worked great" (or something like that). I want ahead and ordered it, though, taking a gamble. Hopefully it will work without modification. I'll post a followup when I try to install it.
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post #4 of 21 Old 08-18-2019, 10:12 PM
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Roller Lifter Destroyed the Camshaft?

I'd heard this is an issue for 2011 - 2015 Jeeps with the 5.7 HEMI. Can the OP tell me what kind of job it is to replace all the lifters? Our 2011 has 46K miles and seems fine. I'd like to be proactive and fix before fail. I'd imagine trying to pull the Camshaft out of the front of the block would require the Radiator and AC coil be removed plus more. Maybe doing just the lifters would be a lesser job? Can an average backyard Mechanic do this job? Thanks!

I spoke with our local Chrysler/Jeep Dealership and they quoted $3800 to do just the lifters. She told me it's 14 hours of labor plus the parts (Lifters, gasket set, timing chain set, etc). Reason I ask is the Dealer told me "they will all fail" given enough time. She said they saw one fail as low as 4000 miles to a Jeep came in with 225K miles that failed. She told me the Techs are currently working on a 2014 with 84K miles that destroyed the camshaft. She then said the Owned kept running it and they may have to replace the whole engine due to the metal shavings raising havoc. The issue is crap quality lifters. And FICA isn't standing behind their product. We are a Chrysler Family but FICA not doing something for owners and they admit the lifters are bad, seems horrible.
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post #5 of 21 Old 08-19-2019, 07:26 AM
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You most likely would be pulling good lifters out and replacing with a bad one(s) as it seems to be a rare but significant issue on Jeep engines. There is much more discussion on RAM forums as the issue seems to be more prevalent there. Seems all years can be affected, but the peak of poor supplier QC seems to be somewhere around 2012.

I haven't heard of a guaranteed solution, even aftermarket roller lifters fail. You could go solid both MDS and non MDS lifters can fail as its seems to be the roller bearings/assembly.

There are a few other cam issues blamed on lifters that were something else, like retaining clips.

You need to remove the cylinder head to get at the lifter guide/holder to replace lifters.

You need to remove the oil pan, timing case cover, oil pump, to get the cam out, all much easier with the engine removed.

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post #6 of 21 Old 08-19-2019, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitra View Post
I'd heard this is an issue for 2011 - 2015 Jeeps with the 5.7 HEMI. Can the OP tell me what kind of job it is to replace all the lifters? Our 2011 has 46K miles and seems fine. I'd like to be proactive and fix before fail. I'd imagine trying to pull the Camshaft out of the front of the block would require the Radiator and AC coil be removed plus more. Maybe doing just the lifters would be a lesser job? Can an average backyard Mechanic do this job? Thanks!

I spoke with our local Chrysler/Jeep Dealership and they quoted $3800 to do just the lifters. She told me it's 14 hours of labor plus the parts (Lifters, gasket set, timing chain set, etc). Reason I ask is the Dealer told me "they will all fail" given enough time. She said they saw one fail as low as 4000 miles to a Jeep came in with 225K miles that failed. She told me the Techs are currently working on a 2014 with 84K miles that destroyed the camshaft. She then said the Owned kept running it and they may have to replace the whole engine due to the metal shavings raising havoc. The issue is crap quality lifters. And FICA isn't standing behind their product. We are a Chrysler Family but FICA not doing something for owners and they admit the lifters are bad, seems horrible.
I just recently finished this. I replaced the cam, lifters, oil pump, timing set, hoses, belt, water pump, pulleys, and valve springs. I went with an aftermarket cam, hellcat lifters, hellcat oil pump, hardened pushrods, PSI springs, oem replacement for everything else, and I installed ARH headers.

The manor for the chip is about right. If your installing lifters before failure, you don't have to remove the front part of the engine, but you do have to remove the heads. That part is easier with everything else off, as there is less in the way, but not required. I would replace the cam too since Chrysler used a softer metal for the cam than they should have.

The hellcat lifters are clearly beefier. The roller is beefier and the needle bearings appear beefier. But you must disable MDS to use them. At that point go with 5w30 or 5w40 oil, and the lifters and cam will have better protection.

To pull the cam, yes, the radiator and condenser have to come out. I removed everything from the front of the car and engine, except the AC compressor.

I did this job in my garage, without a lift, with basic home "shadetree mechanic" hand tools. So if your mechanically inclined, yes you can do it. But it is a lot of work and will take a long time to compete.
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post #7 of 21 Old 08-19-2019, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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Labor from the shop*


Don't know how my phone got "manor for the chip" out of that.... Lol
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post #8 of 21 Old 08-20-2019, 08:00 AM
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I would not run heavier oil, just better oil. Break-in with standard oil and dump it for Mobil 1, Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc. after 500 miles and you should be fine. My WK had 140K miles on it when I sold it, no issues, but MDS was disabled through tuning for the last 100K of its life.

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post #9 of 21 Old 08-21-2019, 08:48 AM Thread Starter
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I would not run heavier oil, just better oil. Break-in with standard oil and dump it for Mobil 1, Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc. after 500 miles and you should be fine. My WK had 140K miles on it when I sold it, no issues, but MDS was disabled through tuning for the last 100K of its life.
The SRT, Hellcat, Demon, Trackhawk, Etc all call for 5w40 oil. The critically lubricated internal components are essentially the same throughout the Hemi portfolio. Also, the Ram says to use 5w30 if towing a lot. The only reason they call for 5w20 regularly, is because thicker oil doesn't work properly with the MDS lifters and solenoids. So, if those are removed, I see no reason to run thin oil - especially since the lifter failures have happened on non-MDS lifters, with the same bearings and rollers.
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post #10 of 21 Old 08-21-2019, 09:36 AM
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All true, but using a far superior oil in the first place is much more important than hoping a heavier oil will maintain film strength on bearing surfaces. No regular oil of any weight will equal a high quality synthetic, and regular oil will not reach critical surfaces on start up nearly as fast as synthetic, especially in colder areas. That's the other reason they don't recommend heavier oil in MDS applications. This is my 4th Hemi. None of them ever failed running "thin" synthetics.

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post #11 of 21 Old 08-22-2019, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast55 View Post
All true, but using a far superior oil in the first place is much more important than hoping a heavier oil will maintain film strength on bearing surfaces. No regular oil of any weight will equal a high quality synthetic, and regular oil will not reach critical surfaces on start up nearly as fast as synthetic, especially in colder areas. That's the other reason they don't recommend heavier oil in MDS applications. This is my 4th Hemi. None of them ever failed running "thin" synthetics.
I use nothing but high quality synthetic, in every internal combustion engine I have (to include lawn mowers, pressure washers, and weed eaters). I use only the following: Amsoil (I have an amsoil preferred customer membership), Redline, Royal Purple, and in a pinch (need oil now) Mobil 1. So, high quality oil did not prevent this from happening. Look around the web and you'll find many others with similar experiences that also use high end oil.
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post #12 of 21 Old 08-23-2019, 08:59 AM
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In that case I'm surprised to have been this lucky. I use Mobil 1 because of availability. That, and it's factory fill for AMG's. I gave up the free oil changes on my CPO Trailhawk because the dealer uses only bulk semi-synthetic blend. Good luck on the new build.

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post #13 of 21 Old 08-23-2019, 11:12 AM
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These oil threads usually turn into peeing contests. There is no basis for most of the claims here now days other than it feels good.

MOBIL 1 does not meet MOPAR engine requirements, warrantees can be declined based on its use but then I never heard of a case. Dealers are suppose to use Penzoil Gold semi-synthetic (the factory fill) or Platinum full-synthetic which are MOPAR certified and a better oil than MOBIL 1 or Amsoil in many cases. They will also fill with Ultra Platinum if you insist, which is about the best you can get regardless of certification. I used Mobil 1 for years but have switched to Pennzoil.

Its pretty well known that, if you are not racing, full synthetics are a waste of money and sometimes detrimental on the street. But there are plenty of old school guys around that are emotionally attached to full synthetic. If it makes you feel good and have deep pockets, no problem using it and changing every 3000 miles. The difference in over the counter cost between semi and full synthetic is narrowing however, but oil change shops still charge a premium. Its marketing taking advantage of the emotional aspects I guess. Semi synthetics are the factory fill for all Jeeps less the high performance models. Unlike years ago, they have no sulfur or contaminants. All oil breaks down with use, but its insignificant in the roughly 10,000 mile one year oil change intervals recommended by Jeep.

I’ve said it before, we change oil in our Hemi fleet of light and medium duty trucks annually, if we get around to it. These are not babied and all seem to go 250,000 miles without issue. We’ve had 40-50 of these over recent years and have not seen a lifter issue. GM trucks are a different story. The post office never changes oil in their fleet. They just top them off now and then.

So use any oil certified for MOPAR engines, but if you insist on the best, use Penzoil Ultra Platinum. Thats whats used in all MOPAR performance durability testing. Only important if you believe an engine can be optimized for a certain brand of oil or a company works closely with MOPAR when developing the oil.

By the way we do test oil, but only as a diagnostic tool.

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post #14 of 21 Old 08-23-2019, 12:27 PM
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Mobile 1 super synthetic meets Chrysler MS-6395. I only use that as opposed to Amsoil, Royal Purple, Pennz, etc. because it's readily available. I don't subscribe to "my oil is better than yours" contests. The fact is that if it meets the specs, there is no "junk" oil, but no natural oil can equal a full synthetic, or even blend. Again, M1 because it goes in my AMG and I've never had an engine failure of any kind using it. My local dealer told me they do not offer full synthetic and could only provide the blend but would be happy to put Mobile 1 in my Jeep if I brought it to them. Go figure.

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post #15 of 21 Old 08-23-2019, 04:07 PM
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Area availability can vary there are also some California quirks. Local Walmart and autozone have shelves of Penzoil full synthetics, no Pennzoil blends, no Mobil 1 super synthetic but some Mobil 1.

Thanks for reminding me Mobil 1 super synthetic now meets MOPAR spec. I recall reading that but it slipped my mind, its currently hard to find around here.

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