04 Attempted Theft - Ignition Wrecked - JeepForum.com
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 02-10-2017, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
roertw006
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04 Attempted Theft - Ignition Wrecked

You think it will never happen to you. You hear about it happening to a friend, or a friend of a friend, or some guy that some guy knows, but you never figure it will be you...

Some f***tard a**hole decided he'd try and steal the ol' libby. He made a real mess of her, but the c*******er didn't get her (thank you chip keys).

And therein lies the problem. After a call to the dealer I was informed that my grey key indicated I had a chip enabled key and it costs more to work on KJs enabled with that tech than regular keyed ignitions. It is my saving grace (my KJ is still parked in my driveway, however dead in the water she might be), but also my problem... According the the AD, getting the cylinder lock replaced will cost a couple bills, replacing the chip reader do-dad (if needed) will make it about 5 bills, and if they really did a thorough number to her (which I'm thinking them might have) it will be a cool $1k to replace the whole steering column and get her running again. We all know these are super-inflated numbers from a stealership, but if there is re-coding keys involved (which sounds like it is definitely on the agenda no matter what) I'm not sure if I can avoid it.

My question.....
How can I tell what she will need? Considering I can't start her up, can't shift into neutral, she has no power to anything (assuming I can't run the OBD II on her), and she will need a tow truck to make it to the dealer I'd like to know what I'm in for before I have it towed. I know pictures are worth a thousand words, so I will wrap it up here and be sure to post some photos of the damage my local f***head did to it when I get home from work.

Any help, suggestions, advice, recommendations, tips, tricks, general guidelines, or experience any of you have had in this situation would be very helpful.


Robert W.
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post #2 of 12 Old 02-10-2017, 12:22 PM
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post #3 of 12 Old 10-16-2017, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
roertw006
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Ok, been a long while, but it's time for an update to help any other person dealing with this problem as well as ask some follow up questions...

A neighbor of mine ended up helping me fix the old gal. Ignition switch was broke and it did require a new steering column. Couldn't replace just the part we needed, so it had to be the whole steering column. Unfortunate, but I'm trying to say the whole steering column cost me something like $75 from a u-pull-it type place. Not too bad considering Jeep wanted to charge me $1k+. A bit of minor wrenching and the old column was out and the new one was in (seriously, anyone could switch them out). We took out the cylinder lock from the new column and put the old one in (so my old key would still work). The chip key module was all kinds of broken and boogered ("antenna" was broke), so we had to figure something out with that too. Ended up buying a new module from u-pull-it and taking both the new module (with useless internals) and the old module (with useless externals) in to a locksmith. They ripped the useless internals out of the old one and put the good internals into it and soldered it all together for me. Cost me $30 if memory serves, but could cost you nothing if you are competent and confident in your soldering. SO, replace the old steering column, do a bit of switcheroo-ing with the chip key module by the key cylinder and you should be able to use your old key and make her fire right up!! And that she did!! Very pleased with my (maybe as much as) $200 fix when the dealer was going to gouge me for a grand or more. I didn't give the full and total walk through because it really isn't that difficult to drop the steering column and replace it once you just dive in there and get to work. It was shockingly easy, actually. However, if anyone ever wants a bit more detail of what I had to do, feel free to reply to this comment or PM me.



On to the next topic. While I did get her up and running, all is not well in Jeepland... She ran great for about a month or so. Not a single problem; always fired right up and acted like her old self. However, one day after she had been running like a champ for so long, I stuck the key in and it started right up, ran for 2 seconds, and then shut off with the key light flashing on the dash. I tried a couple more times thinking maybe it was a fluke, but it kept right on happening. My neighbor happened to be outside at the time and he came over and suggested I disconnect the battery to kind of "reset" it. I did, and it fired right up no problem. Ran fine for a couple days, then happened again. It kept on happening and I kept on popping the hood and disconnecting the ground wire. Always seemed to work like a charm until one day it didn't. Then I had to do it a couple times and leave it off for a while. Finally started back up again. Same old, same old for a couple weeks until this morning.

Tried to start it and it started for 2 secs and then shut off. Popped hood, disconnected batt, waited a short while, reconnected, nothing. Repeated steps, nothing. Repeated steps, nothing. Repeated steps, nothing. Finally, neighbor happened to be outside again and he asked if I had gotten it running. He came over and tried to help me fiddle with it. We disconnected both battery terminals this time and let it sit, reconnected everything back up and still nothing. Checked fuses and all looked fine. Kept disconnecting and reconnecting everything and fiddling with stuff to try and make it work. Ended up worse off than it originally was because now it won't even turn over or start at all. I know the batt is good and the fuses are good. Everything was fine and working properly before the neighbor got into it (with the exception of the security key business, which I saw as a finicky routine rather than a major problem), but now the thing won't even turn over. Everything appears to work like it should, only when you try and turn it over it acts completely dead and gives no indication at all that the engine is trying to come to life.

Any thoughts? I gotta get the ol Jeep back on the road; the MG isn't gonna cut it once the midwest winter rolls around!

Robert W.
'04 Jeep Liberty, some 2-wheelers, and some British things
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post #4 of 12 Old 10-18-2017, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
roertw006
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UPDATE:

At neighbors advice I undid both battery terminals and let it sit overnight (and actually into the next day). I went out and put everything back together and fired her right up. Ran like a champ. There was a bit of hesitation at first, like there wasn't a proper connection somewhere when I was trying to turn it over, but after a split second of hesitation it started to turn over until it came to life. Worried I wouldn't be able to duplicate it, I turned it off and started it back up another couple of times. All worked just as it should with no hesitation like the first time.

Came back in the morning to go to work. Tried to start it, fired up, but it shut down after the 2 seconds with the security key light flashing at me. Obviously there is something intermittently wrong here. I have no idea what could be causing the chip key to malfunction intermittently like that. Anyone have any ideas? I really can't afford to take her to the dealership and pay huge hourly rates to have someone troubleshoot for me, so I'm afraid if the good people of the Jeep Forum can't help steer me in the right direction I might just have the ol libby sitting dead in the water again.

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post #5 of 12 Old 10-19-2017, 02:46 AM
Billwill
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I am a bit confused as to what you did originally replace but the theory is as follows as to how the SKIS system works.

The chipped key talks to the SKIM module that sits at the top of the steering column and has a "loop" going around the ignition slot where the key goes in.

The SKIM module sends the code it picked up from the chipped key and sends it to the PCM. If the PCM is happy that the code is correct it enables you to start the vehicle and the amber "key" symbol on the cluster goes out....red LED on newer models.

If the PCM is not happy with the code it received then the key symbol flashes and the Jeep will start up and run for two seconds before cutting out. If the PCM is happy with the code it received from the SKIM module it powers up the ASD relay and allows you to start up. The PCM however expects to get confirmation from the ASD relay that it...the ASD relay...has powered up. If this has not happened then the "key"light stays on solid...the engine will turn over but will not fire. I had this due to the ASD relay having a broken wire to its one coil lead....I could jumper pins 30 and 87 together inside the ASD relay socket so as to get the Jeep to start and run until I could fault find the broken wire. Note that this is not a short cut to hot wiring the Jeep...other parts of the PCM prevents the injectors etc. from firing.

So for everything to work properly you need a chipped key with a matching SKIM module and the PCM has the expected code programmed in it and the ASD relay must be good.

The SKIM module can only be programmed once by the Dealers...if you buy a new SKIM module the Dealers can program it to the chipped key. You cannot pick up a used SKIM module from a Breaker yard...it cannot be re-programmed...you need a virgin SKIM module. You could pick up the used SKIM module...its original chipped keys from the same vehicle...fit the module and have the Dealers program the new code into the PCM....not needed if you also picked up the PCM from the wrecked vehicle.

So I do not understand how you managed to get the Jeep going for a while!

You are in the position with the SKIS lamp flashing which means the PCM is not happy with the code sent to it from the SKIM module.
The dealers may be able to re-program the PCM to the code coming from the SKIM module or a spare chipped key may work.

You may have a broken wire going from the SKIM module to the PCM so the PCM does not pick up the chipped code.

You can download the KJ Service Manuals here...includes Theory of Operations and the wiring diagrams. The 2004 model is not listed...use the 2003 manuals:

http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ

2002 2.5 Export CRD Manual 5 speed.
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post #6 of 12 Old 10-19-2017, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
roertw006
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I replaced the entire steering column. Also, there was antenna damage (that circular ring around the key cylinder you mentioned) so I went to the junkyard to get a new one. I reused my old key cylinder so I'm actually still using that and the original key I had. I knew the internals for the SKIM module would not work with my chipped key, so I took the old broke unit and the new junkyard unit to a locksmith. They took out the internals from the junkyard module and soldered in my original internals into it. That way it effectively fixed my broken antenna problem. Ultimately, nothing to do with the SKIM, PCM, or any other tech system was replaced; I am still using every component that I was using prior to the attempted theft.

What is happening is the 2 second cutoff. It starts fine and then shuts off after 2 seconds. According to what you just wrote that would indicate that my PCM doesn't like the code its getting. This is hard to believe because I'm using the same key, the same PCM, the same cylinder lock, and the same SKIM module circuit board. The only thing that has changed at all has been the plastic box and antenna unit around the SKIM module circuit board. From what I understand, this shouldn't make any difference considering it is just a hunk of plastic and some copper wire as an antenna.

The solution to this has been unplugging the negative battery terminal and letting it sit for a while. Sometimes I'm lucky and a quick disconnect and reconnect does it. Other times I have to let it sit for a few minutes. My neighbor suggested this and his theory was that there was possibly some kind of "error" in the system and it just needed a quick "restart," so to speak. I have been suspicious of the ground wire itself because it is a little boogered up. When we were working on the car we needed to disconnect the battery. My ground wire was rusted beyond salvage. My sometimes ham-handed neighbor grabbed a pair of pliers and just started going to town on the terminal connector to "disconnect" it. He ended up twisting it until it gave. It is still quite intact considering the treatment it got, but it is slightly bent and I have considered the idea that maybe I'm just not getting a very good ground and that might have something to do with the car shutting off sometimes. Could a weak ground cause this to happen? I haven't noticed any other symptoms of a weak ground like dim lights, flickering, weak power, cutting in and out while driving it, etc. As long as I can get it to start it runs just as great as it always has!

Other theories that I'm working on that I haven't been able to confirm yet: A) it happens more often when its cold and B) if I leave my drivers side door open the car starts, if it's closed it doesn't (that one will be an easy one to check, but I just thought of it this morning on the way to work, so I haven't had a spare minute to check yet.

Robert W.
'04 Jeep Liberty, some 2-wheelers, and some British things
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post #7 of 12 Old 10-19-2017, 07:03 PM
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I'd make sure that ground is okay first. Longshot but another thing is a hard reset. I think if you disconnect both cables and connect the ends for a bit (maybe 10-15 minutes if not longer) it may discharge everything. Maybe that will stop the confusion.

"Hey, ya never know til you try." Kurt Russell-Big Trouble in Little China
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post #8 of 12 Old 10-20-2017, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
roertw006
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There are so many things that my girl needs it's hard to list them all without confusing people (and myself)...

I just thought of another possible perp: my clockspring is bad. I have no cruise, barely any wipers, airbag light is on, and no horn. Is the key/SKIM in any way routed through the clockspring? Could it be as simple as finally getting around to replacing it and my problem could be solved?

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post #9 of 12 Old 10-21-2017, 01:05 AM
Billwill
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Definitely replace the clockspring to fix your airbag problem and cruise control problem but SKIS and wipers do not go through there...possibly the clockspring itself is OK but leads going to it are damaged. Wipers are likely the Mutifunction switch.

Make sure you first disconnect the battery and short the red battery lead to chassis for a at least an hour to discharge any capacitance in the system so you airbags do not go off while you are working in that area!

Not difficult to replace clock spring....before removing steering wheel off its spline...mark its exact position so it goes back in its original position. The new clock spring assembly comes with a plastic peg locking it in its correct rotational position...last thing you do after putting it into place is remove this locating plastic peg.

I now understand your status as regards the Key, SKIM unit etc. All the electronics are the same but in different plastic enclosures. May be an intermittent loose or shorting wire! If you read the Theory Of Operation of the SKIS or SKREEM system for the 2005 KJ.....2004 manual is not available in my link...there is a good description of how the system works. One thing they do state is that exact positioning of the circular antennae around the key slot is critical for reliable operation and that error codes are stored for any misreading of the SKIM code which a Dealer can use to diagnose problems!
Both the 2003 and 2005 KJ Service manual shows the ground for the Sentry Key Immobilizer Module as being G202 which is inside a black connector inside the left kick panel....probably a Black/White wire which you need to trace back to the SKIM module for continuity. If it does in fact go to ground it may be intermittent and I would think of adding a separate ground right at the SKIM module....sucks not having 2004 KJ manuals!

Manuals: http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ

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post #10 of 12 Old 10-29-2017, 09:33 AM
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Late to the party, but amazing that someone would try and steal a 13-year-old SUV! I hope they've fallen off a bridge by now... Sorry to hear about all this!


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post #11 of 12 Old 10-30-2017, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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I haven't gotten a chance to do any more troubleshooting yet, but I have noted another possible trend I'm seeing. It seems like lately I will have a problem with it starting and keeping it running past the 2 seconds that can be fixed by disconnecting the battery. In these cases I will disconnect and reconnect the battery multiples times to no avail. What does fix it is disconnecting the battery and letting it sit for the day while I'm at work. It then works like a champ for a handful of days until it seems like it needs this treatment again. This almost makes me start to wonder if there is some kind of problem with a faulty capacitor or something. I am far from an electrician, so I don't know if what I'm suggesting even makes sense. All I know is that it seems like about once a week the Jeep needs to sit with the battery disconnected while I'm at work in order to actually start and run like it should.

I've confirmed the driver's door being open has nothing to do with it, and I believe I can safely say that temperature has nothing to do with it.



Grogie,
You guess is as good as mine. I don't live in a super nice area, but it's also definitely not the hood either. I really have no idea why someone would want to steal a decade old Jeep. My guess is that it was some young kids wanting a joyride. Or maybe some lowlifes who intended on chopping it, although I can't imagine parts would really be worth all that much off a 04 Libby.

Robert W.
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post #12 of 12 Old 11-02-2017, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Further info...

I've been disconnecting the negative terminal at night for the last few days. Yesterday it was super cold here in KS, but it started right up after I reconnected the negative. This morning it was very foggy/humid and it started right up after I reconnected the negative. This leads me to believe there really is an intermittent problem with the electronics themselves. Could it really be a ground issue? I haven't poked around the SKIM module yet, but I find it hard to believe that a car that always ran like a champ would suddenly develop a bad ground after having sat disabled for months due to the theft attempt. Also, I don't see how disconnecting the ground on the battery could somehow "reset" the ground for the SKIM module, thus making it work.

Any ideas here? It's so frustrating I'm about to take it to the dealer and let them gouge me.

Robert W.
'04 Jeep Liberty, some 2-wheelers, and some British things
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