The Wasteland Survival Guide: Engineering Greta - Page 511 - JeepForum.com
 
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post #7651 of 8099 Old 11-04-2014, 02:25 PM
clintrivera
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Originally Posted by CEScuzzy View Post
I know this has probably crossed the conversation before, but if you're introducing modifications this extensive, why not just go straight to some manner of tube buggy? Not that I disapprove of your philosophy here, but by the time you complete this design, it seems to me that you will be nearly there already.

That said, I understand that you want to do it, and that's all that really matters here.

-Scuzz
Not trying to answer for him, but for me having something street legal and weather sealed is important.

Plus 4 link / 3 link plus axle swap would be the easiest part of making a tube buggy. Starting with something that already drives is much easier than inventing a vehicle with all it's systems from the ground up.



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post #7652 of 8099 Old 11-04-2014, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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You're staying 4 link with track bar front? Or 3 link with track bar?
I haven't decided, yet; I'd love to get rid of the driver's side link just to make extraplusdoublesure that I've got plenty of driveshaft clearance, but that makes another set of problems on the passenger side. It's honestly more of a factor of which one will be easier to work around given the LS lower end; either way I have a track bar, which is another piece of thought-requiring fun-ness.

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Originally Posted by CEScuzzy View Post
I know this has probably crossed the conversation before, but if you're introducing modifications this extensive, why not just go straight to some manner of tube buggy? Not that I disapprove of your philosophy here, but by the time you complete this design, it seems to me that you will be nearly there already.

That said, I understand that you want to do it, and that's all that really matters here.
Known-territory axles swaps aren't that difficult...they're just time-consuming and somewhat-expensive when you're doing what I'm doing and building a lot of it yourself. The front is nothing more than a high-pinion 44 with a few beefed-up parts - okay, several beefed-up parts - and a suspension design that should work well for a 35" tire; the rear is a 9" with a basic - like, for seriously, basic - four link. I'm honestly doing nothing more than ditching one track bar and moving my links about 1.5" higher (average) and lengthening them by 35% or so; nothing is really moving around too much. The engine swap is also known territory; granted, I managed to figure out how to cram a 4L80E in a TJ and make the factory speedometer work with it, but even that's really not hyper-advanced research. Even tucking a GM auto up and out of the way while attached to a hybrid 231 case isn't that hard...but building a tube buggy is another matter entirely. Here, I'm working around a lot of existing material and modifying it as I like; building from the ground up is more difficult by an order of magnitude, especially when...

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Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
Not trying to answer for him, but for me having something street legal and weather sealed is important.
...conditions like these are part of the equation.

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Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
Plus 4 link / 3 link plus axle swap would be the easiest part of making a tube buggy. Starting with something that already drives is much easier than inventing a vehicle with all it's systems from the ground up.
That's a hell of a lot better way of saying than I managed; thank you. Besides, there's within driving range of me that necessitates a tube buggy; I've got abundant evidence in support of well-engineered 35's and a nuke-proof drivetrain being able to tackle anything that's tackle-able on this side of the Rockies...as well as most of the stuff on the other side.

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The conversation is getting interested again. I like learning.
Oh, it's been interesting...you just haven't been tuning in at your regularly-scheduled Wasteland time.

If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

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post #7653 of 8099 Old 11-04-2014, 03:21 PM
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Also remember you can change things up. Most "front" trusses go all the way across. I used a "rear" BTF on the front for packaging. If I did it over, I would cut a 2x2" in half and run it on top of the axle from the truss to the knuckles for low profile strength all the way across
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post #7654 of 8099 Old 11-04-2014, 09:31 PM
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You know Mark can make any truss that you could ever imagine right?

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post #7655 of 8099 Old 11-04-2014, 09:43 PM
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Ha, leaped before I looked, but then, I do tend to underestimate a task's relative difficulty sometimes.

-Scuzz

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post #7656 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 84jeepcj7rock View Post
Also remember you can change things up. Most "front" trusses go all the way across. I used a "rear" BTF on the front for packaging. If I did it over, I would cut a 2x2" in half and run it on top of the axle from the truss to the knuckles for low profile strength all the way across
If I was going to do a full front truss, it would be low-profile in the manner that you suggest...but with 1/2" axle tubes already in the mix, each of which will be fully welded to the inner C's, differential housing and the link bridge...I really don't see that I'll gain anything from an actual truss. If I was going to go up to 37's it would be a different story, but I'd have more pressing concerns at that point...i.e. ring and pinion.

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Originally Posted by G Beasley View Post
You know Mark can make any truss that you could ever imagine right?
I do, yes; simply making one up on-site with him is actually the best resolution to the problem, pending that there's nothing ready-made that suits me. He can also make whatever we might come up with look pretty seamless, so that portion of the equation is taken care of as well.

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Originally Posted by CEScuzzy View Post
Ha, leaped before I looked, but then, I do tend to underestimate a task's relative difficulty sometimes.
Yeah, tube chassis fabrication is a LOT of work and it takes an immense amount of time if you're doing it correctly...and if you do it correctly you end up with something that's ridiculously capable that can't be driven on the street. Aside from money and the space needed to work on a vehicle of that nature, I simply don't have a desire to put a trail-only rig in the stable right now. That desire might change at some point in the future, but right now I've got all the projects I could ever need or want...and I don't even tell you guys - and girls - about most of them because they're not Jeep-related.

If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

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post #7657 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 08:27 AM
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I think the best bet for an appropriately suited off-road and on road suspension would be to do a minimal double triangulated rear, similar to how imped's is, with stretch - and then so a 3 link front with a track bar.

Also consider that, even if you are building for durability, you're losing the wasteland survival guide's whole chapter on simplicity. It may work very well, but when it breaks,like all things do: who is going to fix it?

I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, and I havnt checked in here for a while. Just seems like your survivability goals have taken a back seat to Offroad badassery. Now that being said, I do enjoy off-road badassery more than theoretical apocalypse.


I still think you should just say **** it and order the brute kit and do what you really want to without compromise.

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post #7658 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
I think the best bet for an appropriately suited off-road and on road suspension would be to do a minimal double triangulated rear, similar to how imped's is, with stretch - and then so a 3 link front with a track bar.

Also consider that, even if you are building for durability, you're losing the wasteland survival guide's whole chapter on simplicity. It may work very well, but when it breaks,like all things do: who is going to fix it?

I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, and I havnt checked in here for a while. Just seems like your survivability goals have taken a back seat to Offroad badassery. Now that being said, I do enjoy off-road badassery more than theoretical apocalypse.


I still think you should just say **** it and order the brute kit and do what you really want to without compromise.
If you do it right, it's actually more simple. 3/4 link has 2 less links than factory, plus everything aftermarket would be heavier duty. I would do a bit more axle separation than Imped has.


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post #7659 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Lots of good points, here...

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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
I think the best bet for an appropriately suited off-road and on road suspension would be to do a minimal double triangulated rear, similar to how imped's is, with stretch - and then so a 3 link front with a track bar.
We're in agreement on everything except the stretch, which I'm still just not 100% sold on. I know it would help but I'm a little iffy on how to do the rear corners and I don't know what I'd want to do with the frame. If I did go with a stretch, then a LOT of stuff between the rear axle and the transmission gets easier...so that's a point in its favor. If I do a stretch - and again, that's still a big "if" - I'll push for 8" to 10" total. As far as the links are concerned, we're in agreement; a tri-four in the rear and a three-with-track-bar in the front is the least number of links and the least amount of complication.

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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
Also consider that, even if you are building for durability, you're losing the wasteland survival guide's whole chapter on simplicity. It may work very well, but when it breaks,like all things do: who is going to fix it?
Repair is the biggest reason that I don't want to over-complicate the final arrangement. The engine and transmission will be basic GM stuff, and the transfer case will have no special parts aside from a SYE...and none of that is irreparable by a long shot. The axles are Ford-sourced and have no special parts aside from the POSSIBLE exception of a high-pinion third in the rear...but - again - a rear stretch would eliminate that particular bit of hardware. The links will all be basic chromoly with standard Johnny Joints, so we're easily rebuild-able and repairable there. Overall, there's not a whole lot that I can't find or scrounge up in some way, shape or form.

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Originally Posted by spyder6 View Post
I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, and I havnt checked in here for a while. Just seems like your survivability goals have taken a back seat to Offroad badassery. Now that being said, I do enjoy off-road badassery more than theoretical apocalypse.
Not exactly correct. The badassery is sort of an unintentional by-product of getting a deal on the engine that I couldn't pass up; if it wasn't for working around that beast, everything would be a good deal less badassified (that's totally a word, now). Also, when you think about it, I'm really not going over the top with anything; despite the engine being somewhat-larger-than-normal, I'm still going to end up with a TJ on 35's...and there's a finite level of "build" that can be done to support a 35" tire. Now, although I'm going to admittedly surpass that level, I'm okay with doing so because I'm then just icing my reliability cake.

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I still think you should just say **** it and order the brute kit and do what you really want to without compromise.
I like the truck conversion, no question about it. However, for the money involved in going that route - unless you're going to be a sweetheart and bankroll it for me, of course - I'd rather have Hendrix do it. If I go with a Brute I still have custom work to do in order to keep my custom soft top; if Hendrix did the work he could build around the top right out of the gate and we would not have to chop up unusable metal that I've paid a premium price to own.

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Originally Posted by clintrivera View Post
If you do it right, it's actually more simple. 3/4 link has 2 less links than factory, plus everything aftermarket would be heavier duty. I would do a bit more axle separation than Imped has.
Correct...and since the link ends are all reasonably identical carrying a spare or two is practical and easy. I don't recall what his axle-end geometry is, but I'm pushing 9" of vertical separation on both ends in my rough designs, and I'm not too far above the link bridge on the front. Keeping the lowers below centerline on the axle really helps, and the rear end is far easier than the front; I'm basically following the rudiments of Blaine's advice and pointing the links towards the center of gravity. The links themselves are kept as high and flat as I can get them without compromising the numbers, and they're really not very long; 23-ish or so on the lowers seemed to be all the length that was required.

If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

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post #7660 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 05:26 PM
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Love this thread
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post #7661 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Love this thread
Glad to hear it.

Tonight's Jeeping: It's Bonfire Night, so we here at The Guy Fawkes Memorial Remembrance Center and Hotdog Roastorium (a tiny little division of Muppet Labs) are igniting combustibles, cooking a few dawgs, drinking some highly-satisfying adult beverages and plotting the downfall and eventual restructuring of Western Civilization.

Pictured: For realsies, we're totally doing that.

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post #7662 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 09:17 PM
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Fiyaaah
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post #7663 of 8099 Old 11-05-2014, 10:51 PM
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Glad to hear it.

Tonight's Jeeping: It's Bonfire Night, so we here at The Guy Fawkes Memorial Remembrance Center and Hotdog Roastorium (a tiny little division of Muppet Labs) are igniting combustibles, cooking a few dawgs, drinking some highly-satisfying adult beverages and plotting the downfall and eventual restructuring of Western Civilization.
That looks (and sounds) like a good time.

-Scuzz

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post #7664 of 8099 Old 11-06-2014, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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Fiyaaah
That's a pretty decent Busta Rhymes track.

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That looks (and sounds) like a good time.
It was, yes! We decided to use some of the more random pieces of eclectica that were lying around doing nothing productive with their lives, and the result was a permanent fire ring adjacent to the house. There's talk of a winter Jeep-in taking place, now...

Today's Jeeping: Okay...even though I've done so before I'm going to consider a stretch and look into the options. I'm always biased against doing it, though, so hopefully I can be a bit more objective this time. As always, suggestions are welcome.

If it's worth doing, then it's worth overdoing.

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post #7665 of 8099 Old 11-06-2014, 10:02 AM
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There's talk of a winter Jeep-in taking place, now...
Interesting...hmmmm.
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Today's Jeeping: Okay...even though I've done so before I'm going to consider a stretch and look into the options. I'm always biased against doing it, though, so hopefully I can be a bit more objective this time. As always, suggestions are welcome.
I'm a bit mixed on the topic of stretching wheelbases. I never like the way they look, but I respect and understand why people pursue them. If I wanted to stretch a TJ though, I would probably spend the extra time and money to make a truck out of it...but then, I don't do a lot of worrying about departure angles either. Moving the inner fenders back toward the rear of the tub will also rearrange your under tonneu storage as well and will likely move things farther forward to harder to reach spaces.

If you made a rear flare for it that felt factory, maybe...

A stretch eases some of your other space issues too, so it could be worth the time and effort.

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