[The Original] Mechanical Cooling Fan/Clutch Upgrade for 1993-1998 Jeep ZJ V8 - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
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post #16 of 53 Old 08-27-2015, 03:32 AM
rburrow87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kg6mov View Post
My 5.2 has had no trouble cooling itself in 100+ degree weather since we bought it in 96.
Mine (and my previous 5.2) can cool down with the stock 5 blade and a good clutch, but only if you notice soon enough to unload the engine or downshift to get air moving (once the fan grabs). The AC also tends to get weak or non-existent under the same conditions that cause the temps to climb. Both my 5.2's did/do this.

To be clear, it's not like either had heat issues if you were driving around on the street under typical street conditions. It's only in the more extreme or unusual circumstances where it gets a chance to run away. Such as a black ZJ, in direct sunlight, sitting behind several other cars, in 95+ degree weather, AC on, not or hardly moving for many minutes, after having gotten off a highway. (I was in a long, slow Starbucks line during a heat wave, don't judge me). Or long uphill climbs that immediately end with an extended stop, or where the RPMs and speed never really get high enough to move much air.

It's really marginal enough that I can easily see many people not having a problem or just never noticing an issue. I personally don't like that the cooling system is so borderline adequate. Look at the 5.9; I know it's a bigger engine, but that was enough to warrant switching to an e-fan and adding vents to the hood. And that's even with the larger grille openings of a 96-98 compared to a 93-95 with the smaller openings and optional fog lights in front of them.

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post #17 of 53 Old 08-27-2015, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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I think soon, I'll be going to the U-Pull yard to get some pictures. I'll post some photos of the Explorer's cooling system for its 4.0L V6, and compare it to the cooling system on a 5.2. Heck I might even throw in some photos of an Explorer 5.0 V8 to compare.
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post #18 of 53 Old 09-23-2015, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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I have recently posted a video to YouTube addressing some questions people have had about the swap...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFgnvCYKXU
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post #19 of 53 Old 11-21-2015, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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It's been awhile...

Here are some photos I had promised of the Ford Explorer radiators...

The first three images are of the radiator in a 2000 Explorer 4.0L OHV 5-Speed. This Explorer has a YA220 fan, same as the one in my ZJ...

While the end tanks are huge, the radiator itself is a little skinnier than the ZJ radiator. Now things get a little interesting when you see the radiator from a 5.0L V8 Explorer. It's massive, along with the huge 9-blade fan/clutch. This fan may also fit up to the ZJ V8, but buying the parts new will cost you nearly double. The fan clutch for the 5.0L is roughly $40 more than one for the 4.0L... The YA220 fan is plenty. The next three images are of a 5.0L radiator and fan.

This comes to show just how borderline adequate the ZJ V8's cooling system really is in stock form. It's close competitor of it's time, the Explorer 5.0 V8, had much more radiator and mechanical fan in its cooling system

On a side note, I have discovered what may have possibly caused my ZJ to run a little warmer than usual all summer this year. It seemed like the cooling system was constantly having to work hard to keep it under 210 when stopped with the A/C. I had also noticed the the engine was starting to ping under acceleration. Turned out to be a stuck open PCV valve, which could be about the same as a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak was causing it to run lean. The lean air/fuel mix was making it run hotter, which in turn put a larger load on the cooling system. The unrestricted vacuum was literally vacuuming oil from the valve cover and causing the oil to get consumed, similar to a plenum leak. So far, since I have replaced the PCV valve, I haven't noticed any pinging at all. We'll see how it affects temperatures next summer.

In addition, I swapped my existing Duralast (Motorad) 195F thermostat back in as the Stant from Napa was slightly too small (52mm vs 54mm), along with a used OEM housing as the aftermarket one I was using would not seal well. Apparently the Motorad 91C/195F stat I have must have been a mis-stamped 180F unit as that's where it opens. It runs cooler, but not so cool where it can't get into closed loop and/or set a code. It also seems to be a bit more peppier and better on fuel mileage. The final image is of the temp gauge on a cool day. It sits right on the line before 210, which is roughly 182F.
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IMG_20150906_171325.jpg   IMG_20150906_171502.jpg   IMG_20150906_171521.jpg   IMG_20151010_155125.jpg   IMG_20151010_155134.jpg  

IMG_20151010_155211.jpg   IMG_20151020_183554.jpg  
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post #20 of 53 Old 11-22-2015, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubecompmtdx View Post
I have recently posted a video to YouTube addressing some questions people have had about the swap...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyFgnvCYKXU
I would really caution you here for your own sake:

Your fan is not guaranteed to be centered on the spacer. Your youtube video confirms it. You and I already discussed why in some detail, in my own thread.

Really no one should be driving with this fan and this spacer.

If you need more cooling, go to an electric fan with an aluminum radiator. This is what I have done after abandoning these Ford fans.

The electric fan is awesome; also for the pleasure of opening the hood and not having those dangerous whirring blades. I highly recommend it.

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. HS 1.7. 242 swap. Shift kit. 3" cat back. 16x10 rims. 31" tires. 2.5" lift. Vanco 16" brakes. Alum rad + Flex-a-lite 180KS. 180tstat. Mopar Perf. PCM P5249518. WJ sway bar.
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post #21 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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As myself and others have discussed on your thread, the fan is centered on the spacer. The spacer has a tight fit around the lip of the fan, and the spacer itself fits tightly around the lip of the fan clutch. You didn't use the correct fan clutch on your setup... Although I liked your ideas, your setup required much more mods then necessary. The fan clutch you used is one designed to fit a Dodge fan, which has different fitment dimensions. In the likely case the lip on the "intended to fit a Dodge fan" fan clutch is smaller than the lip on, let's say a Hayden 2794 (the correct fan clutch to use for this application, a Ford fan), then yes, the spacer will have some play in it, possibly causing the fan to be off center. If my fan was off center, my water pump bearings would have failed by this point. The current setup has been on there long enough now that the fan clutch doesn't look shiny and new any more. E-fans are nice till the relays or motors fail. This is a problem some of the new WJs have had, particularly the ones with the E-fan only.

Again, others have reported that the fan and spacer easily centers properly, and that is because they used the correct fan clutch. And another way I can guarantee that the fan is centered... The holes for the bolts on the back of the Ford fan are just large enough so that the 10mm bolts fit through and no larger... there's no play in them. For example, if you mount the Dorman 620-112 fan, you'll see there's back and forth play. the bolt holes and center hole are too large, and the fan can't be easily centered. That along with the fact that it doesn't cool well are the reasons why I mentioned not to use that particular fan, but rather the YA220. Trust me, I have experimented with this setup long before I posted anything here. I would not post something in which I see as hazardous. I have had this setup on here with the spacer close to 10k miles already. If I do in fact have problems, I will report them here.
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post #22 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 01:05 PM
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ok, now i want you to REALLY CONCENTRATE on what I am saying.


i machined my spacer to fit on the clutch. both YOUR spacer and MY spacer have a guarantee center on the clutch. this is NOT at issue.


so what is it that is centering the FAN on the SPACER?

"the four bolts" is your answer

Now look -

the bolts are 0.01 inch smaller than the holes in the fan hub -- so center can be off by 0.01 inch. Agreed?

hell, how can this be so difficult to understand?

are you confusing "doesn't move" with "centered"??? is that it??? do you accept that 0.01" is a large number for something spinning at 6000rpm?????

do this:

1. loosen the four bolts by one turn
2. see if there is play

there are hundreds of spinning elements on your jeep and NONE that use BOLTS to guarantee center. if you find me one, I'll give you $1000.

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. HS 1.7. 242 swap. Shift kit. 3" cat back. 16x10 rims. 31" tires. 2.5" lift. Vanco 16" brakes. Alum rad + Flex-a-lite 180KS. 180tstat. Mopar Perf. PCM P5249518. WJ sway bar.
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post #23 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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I concentrated on what you were saying previously. Before you concentrate on every single fine detail... you did mention 0.01"... keep in mind that the fan itself is likely not even perfectly balanced due to irregularities in manufacturing. The idea is to make it as well balanced as possible, but there may still be some imbalance, such as a blade which isn't 100% accurately centered. This is common with plastic fans, but it is also common with metal fans, especially 5-blade fans with their offset blades. I have seen factory mechanical fans which weren't 100% perfectly balanced... this can be easily noticed while the engine's running.

The inner diameter opening of the spacer exactly matches that of the opening in the center of the YA220 fan blade, and the spacer itself slips right over the lip of the fan clutch exactly the same as the fan itself would. I can feel around the back of the fan where the hole meets the inner edge of the spacer and it is even all the way around. You can tell me there may be 0.01 inches of play in the bolts. I'll tell you that 0.254mm is not a major concern. Nothing is manufactured perfectly. Hence the reason to remember the KISS principle and not over-complicate things.

Oh, and the wheels on your jeep. If those 5 nuts aren't tightened all the way, then that wheel may not be perfectly in balance. Those bolts/nuts help guarantee center. Not the same way as the bolts fitted to a fan clutch, but they do ensure your wheel is properly balanced when mounted. You wanted me to find something... I found you something.

Not trying to argue with you here. I understand your concern, but 0.01 inches... there's manufacturing irregularities in many fan blades that will cause more imbalance than that. And as I had mentioned. The edge of the center hole on the fan and the inner wall of the spacer line up perfectly.
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post #24 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 04:25 PM
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Lug nuts are conic not flat, also not bolts. His argument stands, for what that's worth.


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post #25 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 04:54 PM
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ok, it seems we are on the same page then

to your point -- the nuts on your wheels are cone-shaped to ensure center. you may have noticed they are the only nuts on the car like this. i was actually trying to make nuts like that, but switched to an electric fan instead.

0.01" is a LARGE amount --- at 5500 rpm 0.01" means over 50 (FIFTY) lbs of force.

this is because the force is proportional to the SQUARE of the rotation speed.

the steel fans have a tiny rivet on one blade put in there for balancing. i assume the plastic fans are also balanced very carefully.

every component on the car that spins has weird holes or cuts machined into it. crank shaft, flywheel, transmission drums, brake rotors, torque converter, prop shaft. All these holes/cuts are for balancing. your wheels have weights clipped on the rim. etc.

yes, nothing is manufactured perfectly. that is why they balance it as the last step in the manufacturing process.

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. HS 1.7. 242 swap. Shift kit. 3" cat back. 16x10 rims. 31" tires. 2.5" lift. Vanco 16" brakes. Alum rad + Flex-a-lite 180KS. 180tstat. Mopar Perf. PCM P5249518. WJ sway bar.
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post #26 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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I remember when my stock fan was still on, it produced enough vibration to be felt in the dead pedal of the floorboard when it was engaged and the engine RPM was above 2500 RPM. No such effect is observed with the Explorer fan. The 5-blade may be balanced, but the load on the blades is uneven due to the offset. I doubt the fan blade, at least the YA220 would ever get up to 6000 RPM. The water pump pulley if I recall right, is maybe a little smaller than the crankshaft pulley. Plus, when the fan's engaged, there's slip in the fan clutch as it is a viscous drive. With Severe duty clutches, the fan spins at 60-80% of the WP shaft rotation. Also, if a plastic fan is slightly off-center (and yes I have seen many which were very slightly off-balance), it won't have near as big of an effect as a metal fan, as plastic is much lighter than metal.

I'll leave it like this... I've been running this setup (as a daily driver) for quite awhile now and have not noticed any ill effects from running it. If there was any significant issue such as a noticeable imbalance of the fan, I would not have run the setup, and I surely wouldn't be posting how to do this online.
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post #27 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 05:31 PM
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"...the load on the blades is uneven due to the offset..."

the aerodynamic load does not increase with the SQUARE of the rotation speed.

i can assure you that fan designers considered all these aspects 100 years ago

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. HS 1.7. 242 swap. Shift kit. 3" cat back. 16x10 rims. 31" tires. 2.5" lift. Vanco 16" brakes. Alum rad + Flex-a-lite 180KS. 180tstat. Mopar Perf. PCM P5249518. WJ sway bar.
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post #28 of 53 Old 11-23-2015, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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I'd rather keep it simple considering I have tested this setup long-term and have not had any problems with water pump bearings failing, or fan clutch bearings failing. You have stated your side and I have stated mine. I'm glad you're enjoying your electric fans. My setup is working fine, plus I know others here on the forum and outside the forum who are also running the setup and aren't reporting any issues. As I mentioned, if I do in fact experience any problems with the setup, I will report them here in this thread. Yes, imbalance in a fan will wear the bearings out quicker, but as long as you pay close attention and ensure that it is centered, which is easy to do when you use the correct fan clutch, unmodified spacer, and M6-1.0 x20mm mounting bolts, you should be fine. Easy to do when...

a. The spacer has a tight fit inside the lip of the fan clutch
b. The inner hole diameter of the spacer is 2.5"
c. The hole in the center of the fan blade has a diameter of 2.5"

As long as the fan hole and spacer are 100% lined up throughout the inner "wall", it's fine.

And BTW, I loosened up the bolts on the stock 5-blade and there is side to side play between the lip of the fan clutch and the inside hole of the fan blade... and from what I remember, more so than the Ford fan when mounted to the fan clutch through the spacer... so there is a chance you could mount the stock fan off balance by that 0.01 inch you were referring to. I appreciate your concern, however I don't see any problem with the setup. If the fan was off balanced, you would be able to see that when the fan is spinning... you would see the top of the fan body moving up and down very rapidly. I don't see that on mine. I did see it when the Dorman 620-112 9-blade fan was mounted to the spacer, but not the YA220.

If the "spacer design" is so bad that nobody should be driving with it, feel free to chat with Dorman or VDO about it... it's their design. Their 9-blade fan does have the side to side play you're referring to, which can easily allow the fan to be mounted off balance. The YA220 does not, when you're using the proper mounting bolts and fan clutch. You can email Dorman anytime. And while you're at it, feel free to voice your concerns over on this TJ thread where the Dorman 620-112 spacer and fan are being used by some to beef up cooling on the TJs... My ideas of an Explorer fan on V8 ZJ aren't the first time someone has swapped an Explorer fan onto a Jeep.

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/tj...06-tj-1237538/

Here's a fresh attempt of a video in the freezing cold of me showing the spacer. It's lined up perfectly. Nowhere around the circumference of the hole on the back of the fan does the spacer protrude out, or the edge of the hole on the fan blade lip over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_qlybDKkLU

You may ask how can your statement be so difficult to understand... Well, how is this so hard to understand? When the edge of the fan blade's center hole and the inner wall of the spacer are lined up 100%... and when the spacer has just as tight of a fit around the fan clutch as the fan blade does... How can the fan be off-center? Mine's not.
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post #29 of 53 Old 11-26-2015, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Paulsheer,

Since I was replacing my thermostat today with a properly working 195, I have taken this opportunity to look into your concerns with the Explorer fan setup with the spacer in use... I was able to notice things much better with the fan removed from the engine.

I did notice that the fan was a little off-balance as I could see the center body moving back and forth. I pulled the fan off to readjust the alignment. The inner opening on the spacer is exactly the same size as the hole diameter on the fan. Therefore, when mounting the fan using the spacer, it is a good idea to look down directly into the hole to ensure the fan is centered over the lip on the fan clutch. Feeling the inner hole of the spacer and outer hole on the back of the fan to make sure the alignment is consistent all around is another good idea.

I am not sure how I did not notice this when I had last installed it 6000 miles ago. I may have not really paid enough attention to the alignment when I last assembled it. The bolts were good and tight. You could tell from the last comment and video that ti was lined up... but I was wrong.

As I had previously stated, it is important to check the alignment.

The water pump bolt on the back of the fan clutch measures 36mm. The distance from one of the flat spots on the bolt to the edge of the hole on the fan should measure 14mm. It's important to measure this at 4 points all round, such as over the mounting bolts

I agree with you and have always agreed with you on the fact that the spacer could use an improved design, such as a small alignment lip on the back of it.

I will have a video posted soon.

For the time being, see the below graphic as a measuring example. This is with two points measured... to measure the other two perpendicular points, rotate the center bolt until a flat spot is facing those points. I realigned the fan using the measurement and it is perfectly centered now.
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post #30 of 53 Old 11-27-2015, 01:19 PM
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such a mechanical element, due to vibration, WILL slip out of alignment again. it's just a matter of time. in fact, no bolts on any part of the car prevent movement in that direction -- on the contrary, many bolts have spring washers so that when movement inevitably happens, the bolt does not loosen.

what you are saying sounds like a lot more than 0.01" off-center. i would seriously NOT drive with this fan.

when i machine a transmission parts on my lathe, i check center use my Machinist's Dial Indicator which has 1/10,000" graduations. So when you say things like "...Feeling the inner hole of the spacer..." it raises a red flag for me especially when I made it clear 0.01" off center causes 50 lbs of force.

If you were able to ensure center using your finger then you would not be posting youtube videos -- rather you would be locked in a cell somewhere so that the worlds best scientists could study your nervous system.

your statement "... tested this setup long-term ..." also makes me worried. everything on the car is designed to last the warranty period which is usually 100,000 miles. This is especially true of things like the fan and water pump bearings.

Bearing manufactures test under load for, say, 1,000,000,000 revolutions and that relates to how bearings are rated. As load increases, the revolutions-to-failure rate reduces exponentially. They publish a logarithmic graph for bearing selection. Chrysler engineers would have selected a bearing for, say, 200,000 miles. Doubling the load might, say, net you a failure at 20,000 miles.

Paul

93 ZJ 5.2, 3.58 stroked. HS 1.7. 242 swap. Shift kit. 3" cat back. 16x10 rims. 31" tires. 2.5" lift. Vanco 16" brakes. Alum rad + Flex-a-lite 180KS. 180tstat. Mopar Perf. PCM P5249518. WJ sway bar.
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