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post #76 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 09:08 AM
'79 CJ-7 Levi
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OK... shall we make this a "challenge," then, and, as a community, share our results and designs?

If so, I would suggest a few goals:
1) "Open source" plans. Let's face it, if we can save gas, emissions, and make our rigs run longer (and since the tech is out there on the 'net for free already if you look around and are somewhat handy with a wrench and electrical stuff), why not? This should be more like Linux and less like Microsoft, y'know?
2) Should be "trail rated." No glass bottles. PVC may work, but I'd worry about high under hood temps, and summers in AZ, TX, etc. Then again, what about freezing in winter (one post from another forum talked about adding a little rubbing alcohol as an antifreeze?).
3) Should be cheaper than those integrated, "bolt and wire" kits (like http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/specs.html). If possible, of course.
4) Should be economically positive within 5000-10,000 miles of normal use. Fuel savings should offset construction costs within 5000 miles, or "kit" costs within 10,000 miles.
5) Results should be verifiable. This would require testing on at least 3 rigs in different regions of the country. On and offroad. Hot and cold. Stock and modified. You get the idea.

I will concede that this tech is "proven" in some ways... but since it seems like most people online are trying to sell you something, our trust is often trampled on, isn't it? There are guys/gals running similar setups on 'Yota FJs (probably the closest things to our Jeeps), and the forum discussions are much like the ones on here - mostly skepticism, rants on how it is impossible due to thermodynamics, and anectdotal evidence of it working for a 20-30% increase in mileage.

Personally, I'm going to see how much MPG I can get out of my new 4bbl setup, tweak the 2bbl in my wife's CJ, and then see about building an HHO system from hardware store parts. I'm a social sciences guy, though... so maybe I'll have to bug my scientist buds to get me on the right track.

...or we can all buy a few cases of beer, meet in the middle of the mountains with our rigs, and see how far we each get on a tank of gas...


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post #77 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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post #78 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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post #79 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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post #80 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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post #81 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Map40 View Post
Thanks for your post. I agree with everything except the off-road. Not for the glass (which I have stopped using); but because off road could allow a lot of water to be sucked by the vaccum.
Simple solution: put a switch inline to shut off the HHO generator/electrolyzer while offroad (simple switch on the dash would work)... and just disconnect the input hose from the vac terminal and cap it? Don't HAVE to run the HHO offroad...

Just thinking out loud.

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post #82 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 11:40 AM
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i'd like to see 3 tanks of a control with simple water vapor, just a Ball can with an open tygon tube. water vapor drawn into the intake could possibly increase mileage as well, because it would cool the intake air itself. I seriously doubt this mason jar is producing enough H2 to replace gasoline.

Lets look at the stoichiometric equations:

the mason jar is 1 quart = 0.946 liters. Since water is about 1 g per 1mL, thats about 946 grams of water. 946 grams of water is 52.55 moles H2O. 52.55 H2O (2 amu H2/18amu H2O) = 5.83 mol of H2, which is 11.67 grams of H2 per mason jar.

Ok so assuming we can convert 100% of the H2O in the mason jar to H2, then we'll have 11.67 grams of H2 to burn. How much energy does that produce? http://www.boston.com/news/science/a...rogen_produce/ Well 5 grams produces 700 kilojoules. So 11.67 grams would produce 1,540 kilojoules of energy. Well 1,540 kJ of energy is equal to 1460 BTU, one gallon of gasoline is 125,000 BTU.

The mason jar is .946 L, or .25 gallons. So if one gallon of gasoline is 125,000 BTU, then one mason jar of gasoline would contain 31,250 BTU of energy vs the same volume of water with 1460 BTU. http://www.jwiwood.com/faq/conversion.html

In otherwords, you'd get more efficiency by putting gasoline, ethanol, propane, natural gas or even E85 in that mason jar and figuring out a way to dispense it into the manifold.

The idea is that the hydrogen helps more completely burn the gasoline in the engine. Sure an equal amount of gas has more energy than hydrogen, but if you can't burn it, whats the use.

You might get more efficiency out of your engine with the other things in the jar, but where are you getting them? I don't know how much it would cost to produce or buy propane, ethanol or natural gas, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be very cost effective.

Maybe it would be more efficient, but it would probably be more expensive, which kinda negates the benefit.
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post #83 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by '79 CJ-7 Levi View Post
Simple solution: put a switch inline to shut off the HHO generator/electrolyzer while offroad (simple switch on the dash would work)... and just disconnect the input hose from the vac terminal and cap it? Don't HAVE to run the HHO offroad...

Just thinking out loud.
That's my plan. There is a check valve in the system. I don't want it operable off road. I am also working on building a small box, almost like a speaker box, where the jar will slip down into it that will keep it secure enough that it won't slosh around, and protect anything from hitting it.

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post #84 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 04:39 PM
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Open Source Jeep HHO Project

I do believe in the open source idea and that is what I had planned on doing with my system. Just like Electric at http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/. He has a pdf & .doc with instructions to build it w/ parts list. My design will be more suitable for TJ/YJ Engine area. It is a thinner SS tube design that will help w/ heat and the plates should be underwater up to about a 40 angle. https://www.jeepforum.com/gallery/data/4/HH02.jpg The SmackBooster can either be made or bought it is up to you. It is my goal to put the plans up for grabs because I really don't have time to start a production line to build units. Why do we need to pay for this information? I didn't. And with enough R&D, I think I've got a solution that could work. I have built two units that produce hydoxy but I need time to install them properly. The HHO system is NOT made to REPLACE gasoline. Just like nitro, it is used to boost the engine. If you lean the gas mixture you will need to BOOST it with HHO (Hydroxy) to make a complete, hotter burn that will reduce emmissions by doing so. Here is your chance to do something good for this planet. I use my TJ as a daily driver, Hunting, 4x4, fishing, etc., so this is my next step to TREAD LIGHTLY (http://www.treadlightly.org). It is a lifestyle for me, not just a sticker, t-shirt, or cap that I own. So if I can help you, help yourself and mother nature, than I shall.

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post #85 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 05:21 PM
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Vaccum will help production. Leaks sound like your problem. I gave up on the jar, and I'm using PVC pipes and joints. No more leaks.
the pvc chamber is air tight, i believe my hose is whats leaking, i forgot to pick up clamps for it, so last night i just put a dab of contact cement in each one and put everything together

i was going to test it today but its a monsoon here, i really want to run it but i have no baseline to go from, and i cant fill my tank and drive around until i get paid on friday, its a vicious cycle, from the results posted it seems as though i would improve mileage just running the bubbler, good stuff keep it coming.

i have another vaccum question, should i hook the line to a high vac. port (under the carb near the brake booster line) or a lower vac port that is actually on the carb, i figured that if it was beyond the carb there would be a better mix with the air/fuel already heading for the engine, but please school me, im new to this stuff

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post #86 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 06:25 PM
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what catalyst are you guys using, and how much, i added a half a tablespoon of baking soda to a half gallon of water and was wondering if this would draw to many amps, my multimeter says max 10amp test so im afraid to hook it up and fry it

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post #87 of 408 Old 06-10-2008, 06:38 PM
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I've never really called anybody a dipstick on the web before....

I said earlier that spend $100 twice a week. That works out to over $10,000 a year. Thats only in my work truck, It doesn't count the fuel in my other cars, or the expected rise in prices. IF I COULD get all my fuel for FREE, I think it would be worth a several thousand dollar upfront investment. This thing wouldn't have to be all that elaborate or powerful. It would work slowly all day everyday. Why would your compressor have to be ac I would think you could get a dc motor and then you'd not need an inverter. You can poo poo my thought, but be nice about it.
Sorry for coming off harsh, that wasn't my intent. I was cracking up at the idea of a solar powered air compressor. I have looked into solar quite a bit for my truck camper, and i'm worried about pulling 3.2amps @12V while my heater is running. A 1hp air compressor that can do 200psi pulls 14 amps at 120V. If you convert it to watts then its (14*120)= 1680 watts. Then back to 12V you get 140amps (assuming the inverter is 100% efficient, or if you find a 12V compressor). Say you need to run it for 1hr/day you will need 140amp-hours of power. Its never good to drain your batteries more than 50% so you would need a minimum of 280amp hours for your battery. 200 amp hour batteries are around $300. Assuming you can get 5 hours of direct sun you will need (1680/5) 336W worth or solar panels. At ~600 / 65W panel you are looking at around 5 panels for $3000. Ant that will only get you 200psi. The new hydrogen tanks for fuel cells will hold up to 10,000psi. First, make sure you test it out before you start spending a lot of money.
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post #88 of 408 Old 06-11-2008, 07:15 AM Thread Starter
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post #89 of 408 Old 06-11-2008, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
Sorry for coming off harsh, that wasn't my intent. I was cracking up at the idea of a solar powered air compressor. I have looked into solar quite a bit for my truck camper, and i'm worried about pulling 3.2amps @12V while my heater is running. A 1hp air compressor that can do 200psi pulls 14 amps at 120V. If you convert it to watts then its (14*120)= 1680 watts. Then back to 12V you get 140amps (assuming the inverter is 100% efficient, or if you find a 12V compressor). Say you need to run it for 1hr/day you will need 140amp-hours of power. Its never good to drain your batteries more than 50% so you would need a minimum of 280amp hours for your battery. 200 amp hour batteries are around $300. Assuming you can get 5 hours of direct sun you will need (1680/5) 336W worth or solar panels. At ~600 / 65W panel you are looking at around 5 panels for $3000. Ant that will only get you 200psi. The new hydrogen tanks for fuel cells will hold up to 10,000psi. First, make sure you test it out before you start spending a lot of money.

Its all good. My main point was this, people are trying to make enough hho to run their vehicle as the gas is produced....when really it could be made slowly and stored, then used at the volumes needed to actually run (100%) the vehicle. With some kind of system that made gas all day everyday, it wouldn't have to be as fast as what guys are needing now. Even if the compressor ran on house current, the savings could still be significant.
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post #90 of 408 Old 06-11-2008, 12:02 PM
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You are not going to be able to compress and store HHO. Think about what happens when you compress a gas alot. It turns back into a liquid. HHO in liquid form is water.

I don't know when gas turns back into a liquid, I'm sure it's different for each type. I do know that contained HHO is very, very dangerous. It would be a bomb waiting to go off anytime with enough potential in quanty to blow your car apart.

Youtube search "hho explosion" and check out the gallon milk jug. Tell me you want lots of that stored in your vehicle.
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