94 Brake Issues - JeepForum.com
 
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post #1 of 10 Old 05-22-2020, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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94 Brake Issues

Its always seems I have strange things happen, hardly ever is it simple.

Recently noticed my 94 seemed to be having a harder time getting up hills. It appeared that one of the rear wheel cylinders was sticking. IR gun confirmed one of the rear drums was hotter than the other. Ordered new wheel cylinders and installed them, couldnt get any brake fluid to the wheel cylinders. Loosened the hard line where it goes into the rubber line going from the frame to the axle, pushed the brake pedal and got plenty of fluid. Replaced the rubber line going from the frame to the axle this morning and even after putting grease on the threads of the bleeder screws, my vacuum bleeder was pulling air. Thought the bleeders must just be letting air in but gave the brake pedal some good pumps to help push any air out and called it good. Cleaned everything up and started the Jeep, brake pedal goes to the floor! What the heck, I know I didnt let the reservoir run out of fluid but I grabbed my red brick and bled all 4 corners while the abs pump ran, and I pumped the pedal a few times while it was all bleeding, got tons of fluid.

Brake pedal still slowly settles to the floor. If you pump it up it gets hard, then settles down. Sigh..... Idk why the master cylinder would coincidentally go bad like this. Even with whatever was going on with the drums, the brakes were fine just two days ago.

Something odd I read in the FSM, it says you need to bleed the combination valve? I've never heard of anyone doing this. Cant find anything on how to do that either.


1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #2 of 10 Old 05-22-2020, 12:52 PM
zjosh93
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1993 ZJ 
 
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Location: Austin
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The only time I've had trouble bleeding the rear wheel cylinders has been when I had the parking brake on so the rear drum couldn't move to push the fluid out. You still get a little from the master cylinder but it's a long process. Drum brakes really take very little fluid to work so the master doesn't move much.

You sometimes can kill the master if the pedal goes all the way to the floor. It pushes the piston past its normal range of travel and drags the seal (probably already old and hard) through the sediment at the bottom of the master cylinder bore.
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post #3 of 10 Old 05-22-2020, 02:31 PM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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Ive read that before and maybe thats what happened, I tried to not push the pedal further than normal. Hopefully Ill have a new one in tomorrow.

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #4 of 10 Old 05-23-2020, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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This thing is throwing me for a big loop. I suppose Im getting caught up in the fact that my vacuum bleeder is pulling air, so I've wasted most of my day along with a quart of brake fluid today....

I unhooked the hard line at the inlet of the rear axle flex line and put my vacuum bleeder on the hard line, nice clean fluid with no air. I unhooked the hard line at the rear left wheel cylinder and put the vacuum on it, nice clean fluid. Same thing on the rear right hard line, nice clean fluid then suddenly it started sucking air. I've done this several times and it always changes. I even unhooked the rear right hard line, plugged it to rule out a new wheel cylinder someway allowing air in but no fluid out, and now Im getting air at the rear left hard line. There are no leaks anywhere that I can find.

Also, the only time the pedal slowly goes to the floor is when the booster has vacuum on it. With the Jeep off, the pedal pumps up and does not settle to the floor. Idk what thats about. This makes me think the master cylinder is ok? I can push on the pedal with two feet as hard as I can and it doesnt settle.

Took the Jeep for a ride and as you can imagine the brakes are awful. Under hard braking, the brake light came on which tells me the pressure differential valve is moving, which indicates either a leak or air in the line. Im just so confused.

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #5 of 10 Old 05-23-2020, 04:23 PM
StormChaserTim
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1995 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Wichita
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Well, this still sounds like either a master, or an air bubble still in there.

Had a Ford in the shop recently doing the same thing. It turned out to be a pretty good size air pocket in the line going from the ABS modulator to the right front tire. We only found it by doing a brake flush on it.

You can pull the master away from the booster, and ensure that it isn't leaking out the rear seal into the booster. I've seen that way too many times to count. Also, keep in mind, this is an old car, with an old master cylinder. It's completely possible that taking the brake pedal to the floor has scarred the cup in the master cylinder, and it is bypassing. This would explain why it works with NO power assist, but sinks with power assist. It's likely just scarred enough to let go under extra pressure.

Tim

1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, 4.0L 2WD, 355,000 miles.
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post #6 of 10 Old 05-23-2020, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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Just pulled it and its dry, but that doesnt mean internal seals arent bad. Im just going to try to forget about it till the new master cylinder comes in, just dont want to start throwing parts at it. Seems that master cylinder is a week out from anywhere.... Geographical oddity.

After pondering on it, I guess if the master cylinder is only putting fluid in half of the combination valve, that could also cause the brake light to come on.

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #7 of 10 Old 05-29-2020, 08:44 PM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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Took napa a week to get the new master cylinder in AND they charged me freight. Idk why they dont inform you upfront and they will be charging you freight to get a part.... At a parts store... I wouldnt not have gotten it through them had I known it would be $17 for them to get a part in their parts store...

Anyway, the brakes seem 'ok' now and my goodness am I tired of bleeding brakes and having brake fluid on my hands. The napa brake master cylinder IS NOT made like the factory unit and I dont like it. Its not angled to match the the angle that the master cylinder mounts to the booster.... So the rear reservoir is almost overflowing and the front one isnt to max.... So FYI, dont buy the napa master cylinder.....

I bench bled it using brake lines that I bent. Submerged them in the brake fluid in the reservoir and pumped it many times before air was out of the lines. The 93-95 master cylinder is odd in that it has two rubber hoses that go from the reservoir to the ABS unit, so you must plug those off while bench bleeding. Im embarrassed to say I didnt realize this at first and ended up with fluid all in the floor.....

I do think the rear hose/master cylinder has been failing for many years. The brake pedal has a lot more travel now that supposedly its all fixed. I think the rear brakes have only partially worked and it made the brake pedal much more firm.

Hopefully it will serve me well for many years to come.

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #8 of 10 Old 05-30-2020, 08:03 AM
zjosh93
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1993 ZJ 
 
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Location: Austin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepjeepster View Post
The napa brake master cylinder IS NOT made like the factory unit and I dont like it. Its not angled to match the the angle that the master cylinder mounts to the booster.... So the rear reservoir is almost overflowing and the front one isnt to max.... So FYI, dont buy the napa master cylinder.....
I ran into that when I replaced the master on my 93. Some brands lump the 93 and 94 together with the Cherokee and just sell one master for all. The Cherokee master is a different angle so you get the issue you ran into. I believe the one you want is Cardone 132640. It lists for a 93 ZJ but all the other brands list 93 and 94 the same so it should fit. The 95-98 master look a lot different.
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post #9 of 10 Old 05-30-2020, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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Yep, had I known that earlier I wouldve certainly went with that unit.

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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post #10 of 10 Old 06-08-2020, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
jeepjeepster
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This is the bore after taking the piston out. Its obvious there is some build up at both ends of the pistons stroke. Guess this is a result of brake fluid not being changed as it should've been over 26 years. Brakes feel great now, better than I can ever remember. Its not rust in the bore, its just a buildup of stuff.
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61BB3619-0BEB-433E-B980-E5B243E13B54_1591622054539.jpg  

1994 ZJ-I6 w/270,000 mi
1998 ZJ 5.9 w/66,000 mi Slate Black
2004 KJ w/108,000 mi
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